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[Panajev2001a]

When your freedom of speech impedes my freedom to exist as a person, we have a problem.

I agree, but do not wish on a cure which can end up being even worse. If you fingernail hurts, your doctor could shoot you... for sure you are quite likely not going to feel pain in the fingernail any longer, including at the point of impact...

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

iirc I dont think he ever claimed any of that, in fact all of the posts had been, here's stuff showing that Zoe Quinn is kind of a dick. It was mostly other people who connected the dots together and led the forces. He was just mostly a spiteful ex, which in reality, he really didnt do anything that badly other then just air out some dirty laundry.

I dont think this case was dropped because of the reasons she stated, im pretty sure it was lost because she has absolutely no legal precedent and absolutely no chance of ainning a legal battle over anything that the dude did. Im sure she experienced general tech ineptitude from people in the court, but then she's hiring horrible lawyers who arent able to convey whats going on properly.

IDK why she was even going after him tbh.

He's on record saying that he'd do it again, knowing full well what he kicked off. Regardless of what transpired in their relationship, airing it out in public and inciting people was wrong.

Think

 

[theangrypirate]

I work on a computer all day.
I talk with friends and family over computers all day.
I go home and play games on computers.
I don't feel unfulfilled, or that I'm wasting my life.

I don't know how you twisted what I wrote into that.

EDIT: I do feel like I'm wasting my life sitting in an office writing code all fucking day. Humans didn't evolve to sit under fluorescent light staring at computer screens all day. It pays really fucking good though and I enjoy the mental challenge,butyeah, Not a day goes by without me thinking there's a better life for me out there.

 

[Fat4all]

I agree, but do not wish on a cure which can end up being even worse. If you fingernail hurts, your doctor could shoot you... for sure you are quite likely not going to feel pain in the fingernail any longer, including at the point of impact...

I feel like you are letting metaphors run away with your point.

 

[dity]

i believe in the concept of freedom stopping where someone else's starts, but I also believe that something good thoughts can lead to impractical, unwieldy, and ultimately morph in systems which are unjust and uncontrollable.

This is what I have issues with sometimes in the U.S., people love thinking about the land of the free (and compared to many countries it is, it really is), but then again being so afraid of how that freedom could be used and secretly wishing it could be curtailed... There is almost this thought of "if only the good proper people had rights" sometimes... but then who defines who the good and proper citizens are?]

There's no people afraid of how far freedom could be used, but there are people every day who are belittled and ridiculed for being who are they by folks who use "free speech" as their excuse to openly hate and oppress POC, LGBTQ+, less-able bodied people, and so forth.

I agree, but do not wish on a cure which can end up being even worse. If you fingernail hurts, your doctor could shoot you... for sure you are quite likely not going to feel pain in the fingernail any longer, including at the point of impact...

What the hell does this mean?

 

[Nuclear Detergent]

The problem is once you allow the government to decide what you can and cannot say, then you will never get it back and you do not know what in the future will be deemed alright.

I happen to live in one the most free speech loving states on the planet - like in the US it is part of our constitutions, and when a cartoonist decided to draw a picture of Muhammed with a bomb in his turban, the state protected his right to free speech at the cost of millions of dollars, both for the state, private corporations and the saftey and security of its citizens. The man had a right to free speech, and that was that. You know what is illegal here? Making threats of violence.

Your argument is a false one. Where does the notion "free speech can never return, once limited" come from? I know of numerous examples in Asia and Afrika where this has been proven untrue.

Making threats illegal is not harmful to free speech because they have nothing to do with one another. Making threats of violence illegal doesn't mean that the government will take away your right to present outrageous ideas - see my example above.

 

[Nanashrew]

No, I don't understand why "online" makes a special case.

People could send anonymous threats even without the internet. Once again, there's nothing about these problems that needs some kind of special treatment because it's online.

If we can do something about anonymous threats in the real world, then we should be able to do just the same about anonymous threats on the internet.

In my case? The guy had a name, we knew his actual real name. He showed up in many places, many social media sites that were big at the time like MySpace and Facebook, even showing up in games like Ragnarok Online and other MMOs. He stalked online everywhere and made threats to visit. We knew his name, where he lived and he did nothing to hide it at all. He wasn't some anonymous person and the law did absolutely nothing.

 

[Jarate]

Ah, so she's a liar and at fault?

I wouldn't consider her a liar, just seemingly looking for an answer to a huge problem, I think the harassment is horrible, and everything shes gone through has been some of the worst things anyone could go through, but this is her just dropping the case against someone who just posted some dirty laundry on the internet, that everyone else freaked out about. Trying to seek legal action isnt inherently lying, especially in he said she said cases

And the only thing shes at fault for is trying to win a legal court case against her ex, which seems pretty silly when there's absolutely nothing illegal that he did (or that there is proof that he did)

This is totally going to a civil court though, where it has a much higher chance of winning.

He's on record saying that he'd do it again, knowing full well what he kicked off. Regardless of what transpired in their relationship, airing it out in public and inciting people was wrong.

Think

There's nothing legally wrong with being a dick. And there's no proof that he incited anything beyond posting said dirty laundry.

 

[BBboy20]

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but they're right that saying "I'm going to rape that bitch" is not a crime. Nor should it be. If it were, imagine how many people would have been arrested by now for posting hateful things about politicians on Facebook. Now, obviously this isn't a nice thing to do, and if you actually send threats to her personally somehow, you should be charged with harassment.

But going on reddit and reading through a subgroup dedicated to people who disagree with you, and being shocked to see threatening messages or language, is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

They were killed by words?? I'm pretty sure they were killed by actual physical people wielding guns. Now you could try and argue that, had hate speech been illegal it would never have come to that, but suppressing people's opinion and forcing them to keep it to themselves is rarely helpful in that way.

 

[HGH]

Reminds me of that guy who just came out of jail for his tweets. That incited a lot of anger against courts too. But ultimately their word is the law. Literally.
Then again there are other people that make Twitter "law" now as well.

 

[hodgy100]

I wouldn't consider her a liar, just seemingly looking for an answer to a huge problem, I think the harassment is horrible, and everything shes gone through has been some of the worst things anyone could go through, but this is her just dropping the case against someone who just posted some dirty laundry on the internet, that everyone else freaked out about. Trying to seek legal action isnt inherently lying, especially in he said she said cases

And the only thing shes at fault for is trying to win a legal court case against her ex, which seems pretty silly when there's absolutely nothing illegal that he did (or that there is proof that he did)

This is totally going to a civil court though, where it has a much higher chance of winning.



There's nothing legally wrong with being a dick. And there's no proof that he incited anything beyond posting said dirty laundry.

The blognpost wasn't just dirtly laundry though. It was slanderous with many parts of it falsified. It's quite easy to present the argument that it was created to incite abuse towards her which is exactly what happened. atI feel like the blog post defiantly breaks laws. It is at least libel.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I feel like you are letting metaphors run away with your point.

Yeah, maybe a bit .

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

There's nothing legally wrong with being a dick. And there's no proof that he incited anything beyond posting said dirty laundry.

You identify with him, don't you.

 

[Fat4all]

I don't know how you twisted what I wrote into that.

EDIT: I do feel like I'm wasting my life sitting in an office writing code all fucking day. Humans didn't evolve to sit under fluorescent light staring at computer screens all day. It pays really fucking good though and I enjoy the mental challenge,butyeah, Not a day goes by without me thinking there's a better life for me out there.

If you feel like it would be a waste of you life, that's on you. But saying stuff like "being reliant on the Internet for relationships is sad" it makes you sound like an asshole who knows best for everyone.

And cool it with the "humans didn't evoke to" spiel, there's a lot of things humans do they "didn't evolve to do", and ramming it down peoples throats as negatives in their lives is just rude up to a point.

Sheesh man.

 

[Jarate]

The blognpost wasn't just dirtly laundry though. It was slanderous with many parts of it falsified. It's quite easy to present the argument that it was created to incite abuse towards herm which is exactly what happened. atI feel like the blog post defiantly breaks laws. It is at least libel.

Libel is really hard to prove in a case like this. Even then, the rewards in a civil case would be much better then a fine and possible jail time.

You identify with him, don't you.

What does this even mean?

 

[AaronB]

The issue is that people think freedom of speech is this sacrosanct right that means you can say whatever the fuck you want. The truth of the matter is just like you can't shout fire in a crowded theater, use words to incite a riot, or threaten harm to the president, you can't threaten physical violence on another person. Don't believe me? Next time you are in public and see a police officer, threaten to kill or rape the person next to you. You will be arrested for assault. The only difference here is that the threats are being made online. Hell they are calling her family on the phone and sending them threatening shit too.

Even when it was first penned, that bit about "shouting fire in a crowded theater" was only a theatrical excuse for a highly questionable crackdown on free speech. An antiwar activist was encourage people to resist conscription during WWI - where over 100,000 American soldiers were killed and the country endured huge erosion of civil liberties (including the jailing of a presidential candidate) for highly dubious reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

You don't have to go to some far hypothetical future to find a time where restrictions on free speech get taken too far, and a few hard cases or hypotheticals are exploited to justify taking away legitimate freedom. We have always been there.

 

[Dr.Acula]

iirc I dont think he ever claimed any of that, in fact all of the posts had been, here's stuff showing that Zoe Quinn is kind of a dick. It was mostly other people who connected the dots together and led the forces. He was just mostly a spiteful ex, which in reality, he really didnt do anything that badly other then just air out some dirty laundry.

I dont think this case was dropped because of the reasons she stated, im pretty sure it was lost because she has absolutely no legal precedent and absolutely no chance of ainning a legal battle over anything that the dude did. Im sure she experienced general tech ineptitude from people in the court, but then she's hiring horrible lawyers who arent able to convey whats going on properly.

IDK why she was even going after him tbh.

She simply asked for a restraining order. The district attorney chose to lay charges stemming from continued criminal harassment. All Quinn could do was request the charges be dropped.

She doesn't hire the DA. She doesn't tell the DA who to prosecute.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Claiming you are just "doing something stupid" is not a defence nor does it make it true. People have a personal responsibility to operate within a social construct. If the part of society they are in deems that such an act is unacceptable, and they continue partaking in it, there should be consequences. That's how the world works. This isn't some abstract argument about freedom of expression.

Anyone who is proud to express that they want to "rape that bitch" or whatever, anywhere, is not an acceptable member of society unless they are reformed.

I wonder then if these kind of offenses should be treated more like a drunk driving offense in which no one was harmed. Reckless and irresposible, but fortunately the system and the law saw the behavior before it led to harm or killing of someone else.

Hefty fines, small jail time, and loss of Internet privelages, along with required classwork to teach tolerance and anger management would be a good sentence for this kind of offense, I think.

I wonder if the government could partner with isp and cell phone providers to reasonably reliably block a person's personal or home access to the Internet for 6 months to a year. You would be required to use public access like libraries or universities for the purposes of job search or educational use.

 

[Jarate]

She simply asked for a restraining order. The district attorney chose to lay charges stemming from continued criminal harassment. All Quinn could do was request the charges be dropped.

She doesn't hire the DA. She doesn't tell the DA who to prosecute.

did it say that in the article? I thought it said she was going after him for cyberstalking and trying to get a restraining order against him. I didnt know the DA pressed the charges

 

[SomTervo]

It's absolutely the worst that they do not understand this concept though we're living in the 21st century where everything is connected to the internet. Where people are spending most of their lives every day from their phones to computers.

Basically we've got to wait 30 years until judges are people who actually understand this shit. By themselves.

Which is, of course, ridiculous.

But things will get better.

 

[weekev]

It's disappointing to read that doing needs explained to a judge. I would have hoped that there was something on place to alert judges on upcoming cases so they could be familiar with the case type and relevant legislation so that they could make an informed decision on the case.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

I feel so bad for her, but she's not an isolated incident, though some may think so. I have no sympathy for anyone that has targeted women like her, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu etc. These people are sociopaths, but apparently free speech means until the deed is done, you can get away with pretty much saying anything on the internet.

 

[inner-G]

That isn't censorship though. That's Disney deciding to edit their works to put it in line with today's social standards. It wouldn't be illegal for Disney to republish the original. Though they might get a load of bad PR for it.

Censorship requires the laws involvement, when it doesn't that's the free market ( that so many people that like to cry censorship like to tout) at work.

Agreed.

My point is more just that limiting free speech is a slippery slope and should be weighed heavily when these things are (possibly) ultimately decided legally. Threatening people is not ok, but it would need to be laid out in a way to distinguish threats from expression.

If Eminem says he's going to rape some pop star in the lyrics on an album it should be handled differently than what these people are doing for example

 

[Nanashrew]

Basically we've got to wait 30 years until judges are people who actually understand this shit. By themselves.

Which is, of course, ridiculous.

But things will get better.

I hope so.

Also I think I'll edit that post a bit from "most of their lives" to something else because it's not fully applicable. "A good portion" is better and it will definitely be highest among kids and teens and making jokes and memes on Twitter and Tumblr.

 

[d00d3n]

Thousands should be fined. That's it. Do something stupid, pay fines.

In any cases, threats are being sent to her personally, so what's exactly the problem here? Why there's this push to make constant clamour about these things?

There's nothing extraordinary or special with Twitter. Stop making it something exceptional that is hard to explain.

You should move to Thailand. They put people in prison over insulting their king.

 

[Dr.Acula]

did it say that in the article? I thought it said she was going after him for cyberstalking and trying to get a restraining order against him. I didnt know the DA pressed the charges

Read it here: http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/zoe-quinn-harassment-charges-eron-gjoni/

According to Renee Nadeau Algarin, deputy press secretary for the Suffolk County District Attorney’s Office, Suffolk prosecutors previously pursued against "charges of violating a restraining order" against Gjoni, but those charges were terminated in November "with the intent of instead pursuing a charge of criminal harassment."

On Wednesday, Feb. 10, Quinn announced those charges were no longer being pursued. Algarin clarified to the Daily Dot on Feb. 17: "[A]fter a full consultation with the victim, we have decided to honor her wishes not to pursue the case."

People can only make criminal complaints. It's up to investigators and prosecutors to lay charges. If you personally "go after" someone, you can only do it in a civil case, criminal charges are always brought by the state.

 

[Fat4all]

You should move to Thailand. They put people in prison over insulting their king.

What happens if they threaten to rape or kill the king?

 

[Doctor Ironic]

But going on reddit and reading through a subgroup dedicated to people who disagree with you, and being shocked to see threatening messages or language, is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure the idea is for these websites to have the kind of moderation that prevents communities whose sole purpose is to harrass and stalk people.

For real - Reddit's administration does not catch nearly enough flak on these kinds of issues. A website that only reluctantly bans things like Coontown and Jailbait while still letting stuff like CuteFemaleCorpses exist should probably get shit on more than a little, and I can't see how they think it's even still up for debate that Gamergate is a directed hate group.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You do not understand that when people are sad they do dumb things ? Because it happens all the time.

Being able to understand why Eron did what he did doesn't mean he didn't do awful shit. You can understand why a murderer killed someone.

CuteFemaleCorpses

Why is the Internet so fucking permissibly creepy??

 

[Auctopus]

I don't support GG whatsoever but dropping the case when you could've won because there could've been backlash sounds like just having a tantrum. If you were going to win, you should've just stayed the course. This is like stumbling at the last hurdle.

Also, publicly saying something like "The internet mobs have won." won't create backlash?

 

[Nightbird]

Damn. This is a crushing defeat.
Judges need to step up their cyber game. We can't let the gators be successful with their shameful and downright disgusting behavior. This is not acceptable.

 

[theangrypirate]

If you feel like it would be a waste of you life, that's on you. But saying stuff like "being reliant on the Internet for relationships is sad" it makes you sound like an asshole who knows best for everyone.

And cool it with the "humans didn't evoke to" spiel, there's a lot of things humans do they "didn't evolve to do", and ramming it down peoples throats as negatives in their lives is just rude up to a point.

Sheesh man.

I guess I just remember what life was like without the internet. fuck I feel old right now. There was no Facebook until I was leaving college. I don't don't mean to come off as an asshole but I just realized there are people who don't remember life without Facebook. I don't want to come off as condescending Its just the way I feel about my own experiences. I can totally see how abraisive my post was.

 

[Nanashrew]

Being able to understand why Eron did what he did doesn't mean he didn't do awful shit. You can understand why a murderer killed someone.

Plus Eron never felt guilty or regretful over anything he did or said. He wanted revenge, he wanted some kind of payback and made many blog posts about how he's some sad sack, saying things like he won't be able to save lives at his job, and just on and on to rile people up to attack for him and defend him.

 

[d00d3n]

What happens if they threaten to rape or kill the king?

In some random place on the internet without really addressing it to the victim? Still prison, if they can find you. That is not how it works in most democracies, though. There is good reason for separating real threats and extreme shit that people write on the internet to vent. Politicians would go nuts if they could de-anonymize and sue everyone on the internet who writes something vaguely threatening.

 

[Fat4all]

I guess I just remember what life was like without the internet. fuck I feel old right now. There was no Facebook until I was leaving college. I don't don't mean to come off as an asshole but I just realized there are people who don't remember life without Facebook. I don't want to come off as condescending Its just the way I feel about my own experiences. I can totally see how abraisive my post was.

I know what life was like before the Internet. I'm in my late 20's. But still, thanks for the apology, appreciate that.

 

[Walpurgis]

Dude is a douchebag and his "allegation" has been debunked several times over and to hell and back.

What?! All this time I thought it was true.... Do you have any good links on the true story?

 

[EdibleKnife]

Gjoni was going to be arraigned on criminal harassment charges on Feb. 24, but Quinn decided the legal case would probably only make things worse. It's pretty sad stuff, but at least it looks like her work with Twitter, Google and Crash Over Drive probably will do more to curb online harassment, so all hope is not lost.

Yeah and I'm glad for this. First of many steps to help future Zoe Quinns

 

[KNT-Zero]

Everything boils down to the actual technologies that make this possible.

Social media was created with emphasis on data collection about people, but morality was never considered, given how poorly the main sites like Facebook and Twitter addressed bad moral practices but only when they were called out about them. Even situations like Quinn's are not gonna make them budge; it's all about the numbers and having good PR.

Overall there is no control over what happens on the internet, and that freedom is abused by people like Gjoni. Truly awful...

 

[Quincy]

I do think online threats should be taken seriously, but from what I read on his blog and all the evidence he posted, Eron Gjoni didn't advocate anything. On his blog/tumblr/etc. he only really posted evidence of her admitting to cheating on him multiple times and sort of manipulating her way around taking responsibility for it. He never told his "audience" to do anything. She honestly seems like a shitty liar to me.

And about sexual details or w/e, I'm afraid I didn't see that in the blog. I'm not sure if he deleted it but everything posted looks fair.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I was actually just wondering about that dude the other day, was curious to know how he felt about kickstarting GG.

Like if he was just venting after a bad breakup and regretted his part in this, or if it was his intention to drag her through the mud, and got everything he hoped for and more.

It's been so long I don't really remember the tone of the original blog post or w/e it was.

Oh he's an active participant all right. Look at what kind of person he really is:

What?! All this time I thought it was true.... Do you have any good links on the true story?

What the fuck? How can people still think these allegations were true?

Read this.

I do think online threats should be taken seriously, but from what I read on his blog and all the evidence he posted, Eron Gjoni didn't advocate anything. On his blog/tumblr/etc. he only really posted evidence of her admitting to cheating on him multiple times and sort of manipulating her way around taking responsibility for it. He never told his "audience" to do anything. She honestly seems like a shitty liar to me.

And about sexual details or w/e, I'm afraid I didn't see that in the blog. I'm not sure if he deleted it but everything posted looks fair.

Uh-huh... sure.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

Why is the Internet so fucking permissibly creepy??

Don't you understand, when the Founding Fathers made this thing called THE FIRST AMENDMENT they obviously had my right to look at underage anime girls in mind.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Is the old GG thread archived? That might help clear some of the brush.

ED: Nope. here are the megathreads

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=889097&highlight=gamergate

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=918685&highlight=gamergate

and the post that gets at the meat of the situation

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135783202&postcount=5

 

[EdibleKnife]

I do think online threats should be taken seriously, but from what I read on his blog and all the evidence he posted, Eron Gjoni didn't advocate anything. On his blog/tumblr/etc. he only really posted evidence of her admitting to cheating on him multiple times and sort of manipulating her way around taking responsibility for it. He never told his "audience" to do anything. She honestly seems like a shitty liar to me.

And about sexual details or w/e, I'm afraid I didn't see that in the blog. I'm not sure if he deleted it but everything posted looks fair.

Eron Gjoni, Hateful Boyfriend

 

[GillianSeed79]

Yeah and I'm glad for this. First of many steps to help future Zoe Quinns

Crap. Crap. Crap. Meant to write Crash Override not Crash Over Drive. Crash Override is the group Quinn is involved in to fight harassment. I'm embarrassed now. Updated OP, hopefully no one familiar with is Crash Override is offended. Sincere apologies.

 

[TBiddy]

I have never understood the desire to write treats on the internet. I mean, do anyone get impressed, when they see a message like "I'll hunt that bitch down and rape her"?

 

[Yagharek]

I don't support GG whatsoever but dropping the case when you could've won because there could've been backlash sounds like just having a tantrum. If you were going to win, you should've just stayed the course. This is like stumbling at the last hurdle.

Also, publicly saying something like "The internet mobs have won." won't create backlash?

It's quite possible she might be exhausted after what, 18 months of relentless harassment? I mean, who wouldn't. Unfortunately the GG fucksticks can outlast any individual by sheer weight of numbers

 

[Quincy]

Eron Gjoni, Hateful Boyfriend

Oh wow, this definitely changes my perspective about things. 2 sides of the coin I suppose. So Gjoni has gone from victim of cheating to a guy with an unhealthy grudge. It may be because of the emotional abuse in the relationship, but frankly, he needs to move on.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Well, I'm sure now the GG ethics squad will back off and let her live her life again. They are known to be a very reasonable and level-headed group of people, right? Hahahaha, yeah.....

 

[Vhalyar]

At least, the question "what do you think of GG?" is a great way to identify sub-humans.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Well, I'm sure now the GG ethics squad will back off and let her live her life again. They are known to be a very reasonable and level-headed group of people, right? Hahahaha, yeah.....

The frustrating thing is that the harassment will only escalate