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[Rains]

Sometimes I fucking hate humanity.

Nope i hate it all the time humanity is the cancer of this planet

 

[Maxim726X]

The internet mobs always win, and she's right- It's not even a battle worth fighting.

Sad and pathetic, but completely expected.

 

[LPride]

And yet when MRA's, misogynists, and GG'ers go back to their inherently rehearsed talking points, intellectual discourse is useless. Oftentimes, these chucklefucks WANT you to get into so called civil arguments so they can spread their bullshit.

This is the cheerleading bullshit I was talking about just a post ago. Youre seriously going to tell me that the GGers are sooooo devious and sooooo evil that theyre just trying to trick innocent internet citizens into getting into Civil Debates with them?

Every, put wax in your ears, so that the GG harpies cannot lure you into Kotakuinaction with the siren song of Civil Discource.



Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.

When you make these issues us vs them they lose all meaning and become a spectator sport. Its embarassing, for both sides.

 

[Dame]

I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet. the outdoors is fucking beautiful. it's really not that hard to make friends without Facebook and Twitter. These issuea seem leas like a gaming culture problem and more like a I cant live without social media problem. I'm not making excuses for harassing someone online much less threatening rape so don't misunderstand. I'm sick of this being tied to gamer culture as a whole instead of just losers who can't get off of Facebook and Twitter. I'm guessing those who live outside of the internet aren't involved with this crap.

instead of doing the little bit of homework or reading from this thread, to see that Quinn's frequency of social media use had no bearance, nor relevance on the barrage of sexism and rape threats she faced, you speak of platitudes of how the internet isn't needed to be central to everyone's lives? I mean...seriously? Instead of "oh wow. this woman got false information and allegations of her plastered all over the internet because men just love to slut shame", we have a classic " can i find a way to judge the victim?" no mention of her personal information being spread nor the crazy defamation charges that Gjoni should've been cited for. C'mon man.

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but they're right that saying "I'm going to rape that bitch" is not a crime. Nor should it be. .

I...I just. This is misogyny and status quo enforcement wrapped up in a bow.I'd fear raising a daughter in a world where a guy cares more about their ability to exercise rape and death threats as "freedom of speech" and passes it off as a minority of forum dwellers which don't reflect society in a much broader aspect.

This isnt about harassment anymore, its just about cheerleading your side. Its turned into a team sport.

The meaningful discourse is happening. It's unfortunate you'd rather try to prop up and unreasonable and sexist movement, founded on lies, disproven time over, and give it the same esteem as the side arguing against those things, by saying that both sides are "drawing lines in the sand", the apologizing for GGers by basically saying that not all of them are bad or rapists, as if it excuses them supporting something wholly founded on a man's ability to exert sexism and many,MANY rape threats without social/judicial repercussion, whilst a woman is still getting doxxed and threatened to this day all in the name of "free speech" is privilege and the sound of denial. Sure. So if we're "cheerleading" the side that realizes GGers need to reevaluate who they are as people, then i'll take me some pom poms.

 

[SerTapTap]

I'm done being surprised at how awful these people are, but seriously, how fucked is our justice system when judges who refuse to understand Twitter (it is not THAT complicated) are allowed to officiate over such matters?

Legal failures like these go a long way to emboldening other harassers. If the biggest, shittiest assholes couldn't get caught even when it went to court, surely "I" wouldn't get in trouble, right?

Though I'm not sure how much worse this crap can even get. They're already fearless awful human beings.

Gameragate is bullshit. I don't even understand how this is going on in today society.

People need to grow the fuck up. And realize gaming is not a boys club. Or even a white males club.

The crazy thing is that if any of them legitimately believe in their cause, they're doing huge harm to their own efforts by "supporting" things in the nastiest ways. It's seriously like that South Park episode where they try to teach the KKK to pretend not to like something so people will like it.

Most of them are just assholes though.

I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet. the outdoors is fucking beautiful. it's really not that hard to make friends without Facebook and Twitter. These issuea seem leas like a gaming culture problem and more like a I cant live without social media problem. I'm not making excuses for harassing someone online much less threatening rape so don't misunderstand. I'm sick of this being tied to gamer culture as a whole instead of just losers who can't get off of Facebook and Twitter. I'm guessing those who live outside of the internet aren't involved with this crap.

A lot of people can't work without the internet, or wouldn't make a fraction of the money they currently do, or would have to do a job they hate. The internet is far too important at this point to just pretend it's possible to ignore. These are real problems that need solving, no less than roads introduced problems that needed solving, and ignoring cars wasn't the solution.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Its almost as if whats actually being said doesnt matter anymore because everyones already drawn a line in the sand and has assembled on thier opposing sides. No meaningful discourse is going to get done until GamerGate blows over and dies out since the GG boogeyman (or the aGG boogeyman, if you stand on the other side) already exists. Any time someone wants to have a meaningful conversation youre just gonna hear "Muh Soggy Knees" or whatever.

This isnt about harassment anymore, its just about cheerleading your side. Its turned into a team sport. I look forward to two years down the line when we can have meaningful conversations about these topics again.

If by sides you mean "those assholes in GamerGate" and "everyone else".

 

[Deleted member 20920]

No.

You don't understand that you hurt the greater cause when you blow a person's view out of proportion and slam them with terms like "rape apologist" when they very clearly did not mean that at all.

It does NOTHING to change their mind or intellectually challenge their viewpoint. All it does is make them shut down and keep their views to themselves moving forward. Their views remain as strong if not stronger than before, because you make yourself and the position you stand for seem like an assault on their integrity.

Intellectual discourse is the single most important tool, nay, weapon one has to change the world and the issues you see within it. Throw it away and you are doing FAR more harm than good. This is a major problem with my generation and it needs to stop.

There is nothing intellectual about what these people are saying.

Seriously people, insults and threats are not worth protecting.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Quite predictable if you were following the case. Eren posted on Reddit as /u/qrios and was fairly regular in posting what updates he was legally able to provide. IANAL, but plaintiff's case always seemed thin from my lay reading of the various dockets and filings.

I guess this is the most appropriate gif:

Wait what... are you saying Eron was "too nice"?

We're pretending that psychopathic behaviour is understandable now? :

Back at square one, it seems.

Breitbart seriously needs to join the banned link bin

Can't disagree.

Oh no, I know it isn't. Though the mentality of those types of players definitely exists in real life, and other places as well.

I was a Gamestop manager for nearly 8 years, and the majority of my customers just could not handle the fact that we had girls working at the store. Some were visibly angry, or demanded to speak to guys instead, etc. Others just asked the girls if they carried pepper spray.

It really was upsetting, and of course the higher-ups did nothing to combat it. Many times they would have the girls work alone at night, knowing that these "types" often hung around our stores, clearly not intent on buying anything whatsoever. After bringing it up multiple times, I was told "If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be working here".

I could write essays on everything I saw at my time there, but bullet points will do:

- Shy, timid employee is called a "bitch" and "whore" out loud by an angry customer, who wanted to cash out a gift card that was given to him. Threatens her multiple times. I made him leave, he calls the DM. DM allows the guy to go back to the store after-hours (when the female employee was closing alone, gates down, etc) to get his money back. He also received an extra gift card for his troubles, as did the employee herself (which turned out to be nothing but hush money, really).
- Busy with other customers, one guy refused to speak to a female employee (different than the prior person). He waits ~15-20 minutes for me just to ask "What's the best headset for PS3?" I ask him why he didn't just ask my coworker, to which he simply responded "She's a girl, man." The guy was in his late 20s/early 30s.
- Female employee closing alone had been stalked by the same customer over and over (who was previously banned from other stores for doing the same thing). Asks her if she carries pepper spray, what time she got off work, etc. SM/DM did nothing to combat this, nor did they change her schedule or have someone work with her.
- Lights went out at one of our other stores in the parking lot, leaving it pitch black at night. Given the demographic, this worried some of the employees. They fixed it 6 months after the issue was brought up, though it was called a "non-issue" multiple times.
- Had a bunch of 20-somethings using "This rapes!" as sort of a "cool!" expletive. Obviously made my coworker uncomfortable. I tell them to cut it out, and they seem to stop. After a few minutes, they got closer to the counter (where my coworker was standing) and started saying it louder, looking back every so often for a reaction. I kicked them out.
- Female employee is asked by some holiday hire if she "likes balls in her mouth" while chewing gum. She got pissed and left. Because of that, however, my DM wrote her up for leaving her shift early. She brought the issue to HR, was told to "deal with it", and they just fired them both instead.
- Boost Mobile across the street from one of our stores ends up in the news. Girl working alone, pregnant, gets punched in the face and robbed in the middle of the day. I bring up possible solutions to make sure the girls are always working with someone else, at least for a little bit while they were obviously upset/nervous about the news, and was told by my SM "You know the bank right on the corner is the most robbed bank in the city, right?". As if that helped or solved anything.
- The amount of times I heard "Well, you actually play games, right?" when talking to me over any girl coworker just became too consistent to count.

I could go on and on. It never ends. Retailers, publishers, developers, etc. don't put a stop to behavior like this simply because they would lose customers. The generation of "this is man's land" mentality when it comes to games is simply disgusting, and GamerGate is just something these mobs can latch onto as they feel their Boy's Club is becoming inclusive to other walks of life, which terrifies them. It's all they know, and their personalities are so shaped by it, that the idea of anyone else encroaching on it probably gives them some sort of internal crisis when they realize they lack basic acceptance.

What the fuck. This is so depressing. Where was this (city or region), if you don't mind me asking?

 

[PMS341]

What the fuck. This is so depressing. Where was this (city or region), if you don't mind me asking?

Without being too specific, it was in the Florida panhandle. Deeper South than most of Alabama, surprisingly.

 

[Silver Arrows]

If by sides you mean "those assholes in GamerGate" and "everyone else".

And if he had ever spent any time in the old GG news thread (He didn't) he would know that those who do supported GG often went the concern trolling or JAQ-ing off route with such posts as "I haven't read the thread all the way, but is Anita Sarkeesian really a devil spawn that steals the sperm of men?"

So sorry I don't give GG'ers or anybody else who even slightly supports them time to speak. Considering what I and probably others have seen, they don't deserve it.

Really, this post sums up the thread rather well:

Why do people only ever seem to care about the free speech of assholes, and not the free speech of the people those assholes are harassing, threatening and intimidating into silence?

The liberty to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

 

[stuminus3]

I look forward to two years down the line when we can have meaningful conversations about these topics again.

What is there to discuss? Unless the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet" then I honestly don't see what more there is to say.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Extremely depressing, but I can't fault her for trying to salvage as much as her life as she can, rather than die a martyr with no guarantee that even that will change anything. It's interesnting how people can immediately understand how unsubstantiated pedophilia claims can utterly destroy a person's life, and yet even when presented with evidence about how her life has been turned to hell over fake unfaithfulness accusations they still remain skeptical.

All I said was that it shouldn't be punishable to make rape threats in a thread on reddit

What the fuck?

 

[Brofield]

This whole situation is appalling.

I rarely* wish ill towards others, but let her ex rot in a fire. I hate that we still deal with this gator bullshit. I hate that it seems to not be hardwired common sense to be a decent human being instead of a fuckwit. I hate that education can't be the answer when people willingly close their eyes and ears to facts.

This is how violence is borne, and I fear that the people who should be hurt badly for their idiocy won't be punished.

 

[lawnchair]

It might come as a surprise to people who grew up on Reddit/4chan/whatever but this is absolutely not a large part of MOST people's lives. It's not even just about "old people" or whatever. I can assure you that none of the people I know in real life would know what "doxing" is without it being explained, and while many of them have a casual understanding of Twitter or have an account themselves, they would not have a clear understanding of the idea of an organized group operating on the platform to harass and bully 24/7. I'm talking about people in their 20s and 30s.

The group of people who spend tons of their free time online and know all about the dynamics of drama and how things "work" on the internet are in fact a small group of dedicated users who have that interest. It is not representative of the world at large. Just like how even as gaming has gone totally mainstream, the perspective the average person on the street has of gaming, what they want out of it, and the elements they're interested in being informed about, are very different from the "common knowledge" we share here.

true. i'm 31 years old, i've been on the internet in some fashion every day for probably the last 15 years, and i couldn't tell you exactly what "doxxing" means.

 

[LPride]

i

The meaningful discourse is happening. It's unfortunate you'd rather try to prop up and unreasonable and sexist movement, founded on lies, disproven time over, and give it the same esteem as the side arguing against those things, by saying that both sides are "drawing lines in the sand", the apologizing for GGers by basically saying that not all of them are bad or rapists, as if it excuses them supporting something wholly founded on a man's ability to exert sexism and many,MANY rape threats without social/judicial repercussion, whilst a woman is still getting doxxed and threatened to this day all in the name of "free speech" is privilege and the sound of denial. Sure. So if we're "cheerleading" the side that realizes GGers need to reevaluate who they are as people, then i'll take me some pom poms.

Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?

Immaturity is the biggest problem in my opinion. Sarah Nyberg wrote a piece called "I was a Teenage Edgelord" (https://medium.com/@srhbutts/i-m-sarah-nyberg-and-i-was-a-teenage-edgelord-b8a460b27e10#.c3v8lr5bx) subtitled "I got out, and its not too late for you". The important thing I want to point out with this piece is Sarah never states how she got out. You know what she did? She grew up. I don't particularly like this piece because its hypocritical, shes implicitly suggesting that she was allowed to be immature and grow out of it, but does not afford the same luxury to kids today.

In the end thats what we are dealing with, and I really don't know if its solvable. I realize im teetering really close to "kids will be kids" but we dont expect babies to pop out of the womb as fully realized adults. Theyve gonna do stupid shit as they grow up, because people younger than 20 are all universally stupid. Its a difficult problem with a difficult solution but everyone seems happy to just say the equivalent of "Kill em all and let God sort them out", replacing God with The American Justice System (lol) and all Im saying is, I dislike that solution and I think its horrible.

What is there to discuss? Unless the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet" then I honestly don't see what more there is to say.

Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?

You cant talk about any of these (on a videogame forum) without someone bringing up Gamergate.

 

[dpunk3]

“It’s an outrageous violation of the First Amendment,” said Volokh, whose legal blog, The Volokh Conspiracy, is published on The Post’s website. “Fifty years ago, in Brandenburg v. Ohio, we asked if speech that encourages crime could be punished. The Supreme Court said no. There is no legal remedy for [Quinn], because that’s how the First Amendment works.”

What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?

 

[Mael]

This is the cheerleading bullshit I was talking about just a post ago. Youre seriously going to tell me that the GGers are sooooo devious and sooooo evil that theyre just trying to trick innocent internet citizens into getting into Civil Debates with them?

Every, put wax in your ears, so that the GG harpies cannot lure you into Kotakuinaction with the siren song of Civil Discource.



Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.

When you make these issues us vs them they lose all meaning and become a spectator sport. Its embarassing, for both sides.

Dude you clearly have no idea what GG even is.
They have threads and threads about exactly that and really only that.
They're not interested in a debate or even free speech.
The only free speech they care about is the freedom to launch their bile without any consequences.

What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?

Like we should give a shit about the US Constitution on the internet anyway.

 

[Sai-kun]

Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?

Immaturity is the biggest problem in my opinion. Sarah Nyberg wrote a piece called "I was a Teenage Edgelord" (https://medium.com/@srhbutts/i-m-sarah-nyberg-and-i-was-a-teenage-edgelord-b8a460b27e10#.c3v8lr5bx) subtitled "I got out, and its not too late for you". The important thing I want to point out with this piece is Sarah never states how she got out. You know what she did? She grew up. I don't particularly like this piece because its hypocritical, shes implicitly suggesting that she was allowed to be immature and grow out of it, but does not afford the same luxury to kids today.

In the end thats what we are dealing with, and I really don't know if its solvable. I realize im teetering really close to "kids will be kids" but we dont expect babies to pop out of the womb as fully realized adults. Theyve gonna do stupid shit as they grow up, because people younger than 20 are all universally stupid. Its a difficult problem with a difficult solution but everyone seems happy to just say the equivalent of "Kill em all and let God sort them out", replacing God with The American Justice System (lol) and all Im saying is, I dislike that solution and I think its horrible.



Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?

You cant talk about any of these (on a videogame forum) without someone bringing up Gamergate.

i would bet my account that a majority of people who 'side' with gamergate are not under 20 years old or 'kids'.

edit: yes, abuse is violence

 

[LPride]

What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?

Then you need to change it, and youll need a 3/5ths supermajority of states to vote along with your plan. Thats an exceptionally difficult hurdle to climb and I suggest everyone starts planning from here if they ever want to change free speech laws because everything and anything proposed will be considered unconstitutional otherwise.

i would bet my account that a majority of people who 'side' with gamergate are not under 20 years old or 'kids'.

edit: yes, abuse is violence

Youre telling me youd be ok with someone being charged with a felony for a violent crime for posting on twitter? Youre aware that person will not just be going to prison, but into the unredeemable hellhole that is the United States Prison System?

e: Also sorry thats a personal quirk of the way I talk. A Kid is anyone younger than me, so 28 and below.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Like we should give a shit about the US Constitution on the internet anyway.

Still doesn't stop people from citing it. Especially when they don't realize that they are on a private website, so the Constitution is void.

God, I'm not even American and I know that.

 

[diffusionx]

Gjoni specifically wrote that article to stir up online crowds. He's said it. He said he would do it again if he felt like it. He's a terrible human being.

Thing is, he's not a criminal.

 

[Mael]

Youre telling me youd be ok with someone being charged with a felony for a violent crime for posting on twitter? Youre aware that person will not just be going to prison, but into the unredeemable hellhole that is the United States Prison System?

You're ok with throwing minorities there for looking at policemen wrong or whatever petty stuffs the States use to disenfranchise people.
With any luck some of the idiots will be part of a minority group too.

 

[LPride]

You're ok with throwing minorities there for looking at policemen wrong.
With any luck some of the idiots will be part of a minority group too.

Im not ok with that. Why would I bring up how bad the prison system is in america if I didnt have any sympathy for our most vulnerable members of society currently begin subjected to it?

 

[Mael]

Im not ok with that. Why would I bring up how bad the prison system is in america if I didnt have any sympathy for our most vulnerable members of society currently begin subjected to it?

There's far less serious stuffs people are sent to prison to.
I won't shed any tear if we dispose of this scum in a more serious way we deal with petty theft.

 

[Gattsu25]

Then you need to change it, and youll need a 3/5ths supermajority of states to vote along with your plan. Thats an exceptionally difficult hurdle to climb and I suggest everyone starts planning from here if they ever want to change free speech laws because everything and anything proposed will be considered unconstitutional otherwise.



Youre telling me youd be ok with someone being charged with a felony for a violent crime for posting on twitter? Youre aware that person will not just be going to prison, but into the unredeemable hellhole that is the United States Prison System?

e: Also sorry thats a personal quirk of the way I talk. A Kid is anyone younger than me, so 28 and below.

Surprisingly, threats of violence can be considered criminal offenses even if they are over a Social media platform.

 

[LPride]

Surprisingly, threats of violence can be considered criminal offenses even if they are over a Social media platform.

I was specifically referring to defining abuse as violence. Violent crimes almost always carry heavier penalties and are often felonies, which will strip a person of many basic rights including the right to vote.

 

[Dame]

What were his allgeations? I didn't read all of his original posting when it was posted here, but what I remember was him basically saying she was cheating on him multiple times with several people in the industry. I did not take away much from it other than "in his experience she, on a purley personal basis, is a scumbag and a dishonest girlfriend". Did he claim additional things that were debunked or was the sleeping around itself debunked?

The "favourable reviews" thing was a lie

http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

straight bodying the notion that the rest of any allegations had any ground:
http://www.themarysue.com/gamergate-chat-logs/

that comes with the 4chan log showing that 4chan users were doign this for sport, and that they wanted to target people of social justice to discredit them...by lying about Zoe Quinn of course.

Hell. Even if Gjoni didn't accuse her of anything, why does that necessarily matter, Yoshi? He posted a defaming script about her, slut-shamed her, and got an army of sexists to feel good about upholding negative views toward yet another woman, who released a free game with little "favourable press". Unless you know this guy personally, i'd worry little about trying to protect his poor,poor fragile ego.

 

[Akuun]

Completely disgusting, as GG always is.

Ironically I just searched for it and guess what source was the highlighted one covering it:

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/...-safety-council-featuring-feminist-frequency/

What the fuck.

 

[DrForester]

Here's a link to her blog post about it: http://blog.unburntwitch.com/post/139084743809/why-i-just-dropped-the-harassment-charges-the-man

Very sad read.

And then I looked up what "Kotaku in Action" was and was disgusted.

 

[Gattsu25]

I was specifically referring to defining abuse as violence. Violent crimes almost always carry heavier penalties and are often felonies, which will strip a person of many basic rights including the right to vote.

I agree that the disenfranchisement of felons is a problem and it has its Genesis in Jim Crow laws.

But that's a different discussion secondary to the need of law enforcement to advance with technology.


Threats of violence and rape on Twitter are still threats of violence and rape and should be treated as such. If there are laws against those they should be applied.

 

[LPride]

Threats of violence and rape on Twitter are still threats of violence and rape and should be treated as such. If there are laws against those they should be applied.

A threat of violence is not violence though. Its a threat.

 

[stuminus3]

Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?

You cant talk about any of these (on a videogame forum) without someone bringing up Gamergate.

Most of this is nonsense. It's actually pretty straightforward.

"I’m not going to stop spreading your disgusting nudes around and making sure your life is a living hell until you either kill yourself or I rape you to death.”

^ don't do this, and don't defend others who do this. It's really very simple.

 

[Nairume]

Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.

When you make these issues us vs them they lose all meaning and become a spectator sport. Its embarassing, for both sides.

At this point, it's painfully clear that GG's claim to be pushing for any sort of ethics improvement in journalism is bunk (if anything, they've actively made things worse on that front), leaving only the negative aspects of the group as the representation of what they are.

While I don't believe that everybody in GG is a barely contained rapist only moments away from attacking the nearest woman, I do have no problem saying that anybody who still associates with GG at this point is a terrible person. Until they do something to earn the benefit of the doubt, I see no need to coddle people attaching themselves to an effective hate group by giving them an equal voice in some imaginary debate.

 

[LPride]

Most of this is nonsense. It's actually pretty straightforward.


^ don't do this, and don't defend others who do this. It's really very simple.

Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?

Surprise, when you stop cheer leading and start thinking about things, they begin to get complicated.

While I don't believe that everybody in GG is a barely contained rapist only moments away from attacking the nearest woman, I do have no problem saying that anybody who still associates with GG at this point is a terrible person. Until they do something to earn the benefit of the doubt, I see no need to coddle people attaching themselves to an effective hate group by giving them an equal voice in some imaginary debate.

Yea, I tend to give benefit of the doubt pretty freely, whether you think thats a personal failing or a good point of mine is up to everyone else to decide. I find it hard to just paint everyone with the same brush, even if they stand on the wrong side of things.

I hate to pull out common sense, especially since its almost always wrong, but having been on the internet for as long as I have I feel like I 'know' that 1% of GG is committing 99% of offenses.

 

[Nairume]

Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?

Surprise, when you stop cheer leading and start thinking about things, they begin to get complicated.

Seeing as how we have a system in place to adjust legal punishment for minors who commit crimes, I don't see why that's a special concern for this case.

 

[User 73706]

Without being too specific, it was in the Florida panhandle. Deeper South than most of Alabama, surprisingly.

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

 

[Weltall Zero]

That seems like a pretty large problem right there. I haven't followed GG so please don't fault me for that but people don't need to live their lives on the internet.

I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet.

Then you have a luxury many of the affected by GamerGate don't, and I say this as a software engineer that is as offline as you are (which is to say, debatable, as here we both are). Many of the victims of GG actually need to be online to make a living so for them being online is not a hobby but a literal necessity. Looking down on others because you have a luxury they don't is a pretty shitty attitude.

Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?

GamerGate's symbiotic structure on how the "free speech", "innocent" people serve as a shield for the ones that are there to make rape threats has been discussed at exhaustive length. Also, 4chan posts have shown extensive examples of strategies from the second group, including most of what you cast themselves as too dumb to do. In other words, you could not play more into their hands with your posts if they have given you a map and a compass.

Also, your argument that both GG and anti-GG sides are equivalent is fucking nauseating, and not just from a moral standpoint but also from a logical one.

 

[stuminus3]

Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?

Surprise, when you stop cheer leading and start thinking about things, they begin to get complicated.

So what you're saying is that when I asked if...

...the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet"...

...then your answer is "yes". No?

 

[LPride]

...then your answer is "yes". No?

Well, in that case, then yes I do feel that any discussion on the wider internet regarding that topic is going to be tainted by people constantly bringing up GamerGate, and once its forgotten about maybe the discourse will become more meaningful and less about ppl hooting and hollaring about thier side.

 

[stuminus3]

Well, in that case, then yes I do feel that any discussion on the wider internet regarding that topic is going to be tainted by people constantly bringing up GamerGate, and once its forgotten about maybe the discourse will become more meaningful and less about ppl hooting and hollaring about thier side.

Curiously, this never happens to me. I wonder why.

 

[Dame]

Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them?

This is a "but not all men" argument. I used to somewhat think this way when women called us men dogs or pigs and generalized. Listen. When a marginalized group calls out sexism,misogyny, racism, and oppression, when they call out rape threats, or highlight the ridiculous ways people with power behave, your first priority being to say "but not all of us" is you protecting your bubble of an idea that you need to be coddled. That despite nver having to worry about your sexual autonomy being seized when you walk the streets at night, "hey, not all of us are bad eggs,right?". Of course not everyone has carried out these offenses. The marginalized groups know that and trying to argue it down only serves to placate your sense of self-righteousness, but once you support a systemic problem, even with the misguided notion of whatever you think is noble, you then are responsible in part for perpetuating the exact problem. Billy from down the block, whose never touched a girl in his life, trying to argue against the idea that sexism exists, and that GGers just wanted "ethics" all along, is doing harm. Period. He has the opportunity to mature and know better, but his status as a male who doesn't have to worry about living as a woman protects him from confronting the issue.

There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?

Sure. This talking point is still derailing from the many issues at large being spoken of, but sure.

Immaturity is the biggest problem in my opinion.

Do you know how many grown men and women are sexist toward women? Do you know how many of them don't realize that sexism toward men isn't a thing since it relies on power structures of misogyny reinforced by men? Immaturity isn't even reaching the iceberg's tip, it's a societal paradigm that makes any of us completely uncomfortable with the notion that we can oppress or cause harm to others. We want to see our views as good and honest, but when someone, a woman in particular goes "hey. you calling me a slut is sexist and it harms how you view other women", we tend to lash out because our fragility is showing.

I realize im teetering really close to "kids will be kids" but we dont expect babies to pop out of the womb as fully realized adults. Theyve gonna do stupid shit as they grow up, because people younger than 20 are all universally stupid.

No. They are not. There are children, much younger than you or me, who are fully capable of realizing these power structures, and who have called them out with more maturity than a lot of adults. There's simply no excuse for allowing someone to engage in sexism,racism, misogyny etc. It is something that it taught, learned, and enforced, in every age bracket. Saying "kids will be kids" doesn't give a pass to grown men swatting, doxxing,harrassing, slut-shaming women in games journalism, because we've heard that before in life remember?: "boys will be boys". As soon as we stop giving people a pass by saying "oh well, it's just a part of who they are", we can realise that at any age, we can be educated toward equity. Some of the most brilliant art and discoveries have come from the age group you've deemed stupid. It's a very odd phenomena that we as adults like so much to belittle the intelligence and maturity younger people posses whilst we continue perpetuating that idea.

Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language?

Again, threatening violence or rape, in which case the likes of Sarkeesian and Quinn have faced/are facing on a daily basis, with no societal backlash on the part of the harassers. I'd say that'd suffice. When those threats become so real that your public information is posted and you must move like Anita did after being swatted, i'd say that jail time is fair.

Apologies of having to sound stern with you, but in my experience, there's no way to educate someone about these things with the calm i've had before. Not that what i'm saying is the wisdom of the gods, but people really don't want to acknowledge these things half the time.

 

[Fuchsdh]

What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?

Well, you're never going to get anyone to rewrite the first amendment, considering that it's the founding bedrock of our free press and the right to criticize anyone, no matter their power, and not be thrown in jail. You don't have to look hard to see where countries without that protection have issues with that sort of thing. The only realistic path forward is if the Supreme Court began radically overturning a half-century-plus of established precedent regarding First Amendment case law.

The flip side of its protections is, yeah, people will use that right to be jackasses to other human beings, to say mean or stupid or offensive or ignorant things. And the times and situations when those words are actually criminal are designed as specific and narrow exceptions, because that is far less dangerous to free speech than making blanket exceptions.

As GamerGate and a whole host of people constantly misunderstand, "free speech" doesn't mean that Twitter can't censor your posts or block your accounts. For the most part, it's as simple as it's their sandbox, and they can tell whoever they want that they are not allowed to play in it. But that doesn't mean that those posts actually rise to the level of criminal behavior.

Assuming a magical world where all else held true but the police were A) able to tie legally actionable behavior to their sources and B) were able to successfully prosecute those individuals, and did this with 100% of offenders…. you're still going to have a large chunk of the mob still out there, because what they're doing is distasteful and immoral, but not illegal, and that's what I don't think the anti-harassment activists understand. This is why they should focus their energy and attention on these platforms being proactive and shutting down the spigots rather than going after the water droplets.

 

[LPride]

This is a "but not all men" argument. I used to somewhat think this way when women called us men dogs or pigs and generalized. Listen. When a marginalized group calls out sexism,misogyny, racism, and oppression, when they call out rape threats, or highlight the ridiculous ways people with power behave, your first priority being to say "but not all of us" is you protecting your bubble of an idea that you need to be coddled. That despite nver having to worry about your sexual autonomy being seized when you walk the streets at night, "hey, not all of us are bad eggs,right?". Of course not everyone has carried out these offenses. The marginalized groups know that and trying to argue it down only serves to placate your sense of self-righteousness, but once you support a systemic problem, even with the misguided notion of whatever you think is noble, you then are responsible in part for perpetuating the exact problem. Billy from down the block, whose never touched a girl in his life, trying to argue against the idea that sexism exists, and that GGers just wanted "ethics" all along, is doing harm. Period. He has the opportunity to mature and know better, but his status as a male who doesn't have to worry about living as a woman protects him from confronting the issue.

Youre implicitly suggesting that I am sympathetic towards GGs views and I don't appreciate it. If youre telling me that i MUST treat everyone in GG with the same level of contempt, regardless of thier actions, then I disagree with you. I obviously would view people who actively harassed people with more contempt than those who have not. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Lets just break down your argument further: Imagine three imaginary Gators. The first is willfully attacking other people in cyberspace and generally being a shithead. The second is knowingly using GG as a smokescreen to further thier ideals, the third has been duped by the second and argues for free speech alongside GG supporters.

These three are all equally contemptable? The first is actually committing abuse against others. The third is a victim himself.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Youre seriously going to tell me that the GGers are sooooo devious and sooooo evil that theyre just trying to trick innocent internet citizens into getting into Civil Debates with them?

Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.

Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?

Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?

Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?

You know asking ten questions per post doesn't make you more intelligent, merely more obnoxious, right? And the fact you don't even attempt to answer any of those questions or anyone else's is a dead giveaway that you are not truly interested in discussion but on showing how much above everyone else and pro-discussion you are without yet moving a finger to carry that discussion forward? I particularly loved your argument that we can't do anything about online threats unless we, personaly, pen a 10k page legislation to cover every single extenuating case.

"Yes, guys, it's shitty, but have you written down what exact punishment should be dealt to a 17 (soon to be 18 in March) year old guy that posted one rape threat, thirty seven insults and two jokes in bad taste? No? Then by the rule of all or nothing, you're not allowed to suggest harsher (read: any) punishment for any of it".

Ironclad argument right there.

 

[stuminus3]

Do you know how many of them don't realize that sexism toward men isn't a thing since it relies on power structures of misogyny reinforced by men?

Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!

 

[Fehyd]

GamerGate's symbiotic structure on how the "free speech", "innocent" people serve as a shield for the ones that are there to make rape threats has been discussed at exhaustive length. Also, 4chan posts have shown extensive examples of strategies from the second group, including most of what you cast themselves as too dumb to do. In other words, you could not play more into their hands with your posts if they have given you a map and a compass.

Also, your argument that both GG and anti-GG sides are equivalent is fucking nauseating, and not just from a moral standpoint but also from a logical one.

What I don't understand is why Gamergate is held to an entirely different standard from say, violent feminists or animal rights groups?

I mean there are self avowed feminists that have actually murdered people, raped men, excluded or maligned transgendered individuals, and yet we aren't using them as a strawman to attack feminism as a whole.

This whole "with us or against us" thing is hypocrisy at best since nobody applies it to their own identifying movements.

 

[LPride]

You know asking ten questions per post doesn't make you more intelligent, merely more obnoxious, right? And the fact you don't even attempt to answer any of those questions or anyone else's is a dead giveaway that you are not truly interested in discussion but on showing how much above everyone else and pro-discussion you are without yet moving a finger to carry that discussion forward? I particularly loved your argument that we can't do anything about online threats unless we, personaly, pen a 10k page legislation to cover every single extenuating case.

"Yes, guys, it's shitty, but have you written down what exact punishment should be dealt to a 17 (soon to be 18 in March) year old guy that posted one rape threat, thirty seven insults and two jokes in bad taste? No? Then by the rule of all or nothing, you're not allowed to suggest harsher (read: any) punishment for any of it".

Ironclad argument right there.

My intention wasn't to ask a million questions and have them answered, I was just trying to illustrate how many different facets there are regarding this topic. That its an extremely complicated problem that nobody seems to put ANY thought into and all or nothings into "Complete free speech for all!" or "Everything said on twitter is an actionable threat" which is why I consider everyone going "Gators are so stupid! Lock 'em all up!" just doing the same embarassing cheerleading that pro-GG people are doing on reddit.

Someone earlier mentioned the appeal to moderation, but I dont feel Im being fallacious here when I make that appeal. Everything on the internet gets wound up to 11 and immediately blown up into hyperbole, so much so that appealing to moderation is often useful advice, and not a fallacious argument.

 

[riskVSreward]

Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!

Of course it's a real thing, but some people have redefined sexism in a way to exclude it from the discussion.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

this cow is small, that cow is far away

 

[LPride]

Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!

Its a semantic game people like to paly. The argument goes "Racism against a priveledged group cannot exist, because Racism is Power + Privilege". This argument was borne when talking about groups, and it ONLY MAKES SENSE when talking about groups.

When talking about an individual, an individual man can certainly not have any power, while an individual woman can. So if a mans female boss fires him, for being a man, he is certainly a victim of sexism, despite being a member of a privileged group. In this case the mans powerlessness, as a result of his powerlessness in the organization he is a part of trumps any institutional or social sexism that may pervade every other part of his life and gives him power.