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Xbox boss says hardware analysis between consoles is “meaningless”

C

Chie Satonaka

Member
I understand that this is a silly quote to those of us here on GAF who obsess about these sorts of things, but in the end, I don't see anything especially wrong with his comment. My friends who play video games but wouldn't call themselves "enthusiasts" aren't excited about 8GB GDDR5 RAM.They're excited about playing Call of Duty or Madden or some other shit with new graphics. That's it. They aren't going to scour the internet for specs lists.

It's a PR statement, but it's not totally incorrect. There's many factors that lead into these decisions. Now that Microsoft has reversed (at least somewhat) their policies on that vile stuff they were doing before, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I still think Sony's going to come out on top.
 
S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
Chie Satonaka said:
I understand that this is a silly quote to those of us here on GAF who obsess about these sorts of things, but in the end, I don't see anything especially wrong with his comment. My friends who play video games but wouldn't call themselves "enthusiasts" aren't excited about 8GB GDDR5 RAM.They're excited about playing Call of Duty or Madden or some other shit with new graphics. That's it. They aren't going to scour the internet for specs lists.

It's a PR statement, but it's not totally incorrect. There's many factors that lead into these decisions. Now that Microsoft has reversed (at least somewhat) their policies on that vile stuff they were doing before, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I still think Sony's going to come out on top.
Click to expand...

This.

But in the end, Sony have a console that is 100$ cheaper. That will pretty much convince all those people a lot more than the DDR5 ever will.

edit: MS need to put more value in their box. Oh like i dunno, maybe a fucking headset?
 
E

ekim

Member
Albert Penello said:
I do want to remind people – this interview was done six weeks ago, before E3. It’s not like we just decided to talk about it. So it wasn't that I just decided to call up OXM and give the my opinion :)

I would like to pose this question to the audience. There are several months until the consoles launch, and any student of the industry will remember, specs change.

Given the rumored specs for both systems, can anyone conceive of a circumstance or decision one platform holder could make, where despite the theoretical performance benchmarks of the components, the box that appears “weaker” could actually be more powerful?

I believe the debate on this could give some light to why we don’t want to engage in a specification debate until both boxes are final and shipping.
Click to expand...

First: thanks for joining the discussion here.
Regarding the bolded: are you implying that Xbox One's or PS4's specs still might change? If yes, in which regards? And can you comment on the rumor that The GPU in Xbox One is downclocked to 750MHZ?
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Garrett 2U said:
Wasting resources as in the 3GB of RAM allocated to make the OS work.

Actually I'm basing that on the fact that the Playstation 4 games don't look richer or more sophisticated than the XboxOne games.
In fact, both TitanFall and Halo are announced to be 60fps and have dedicated servers.
Killzone is announced to be 30fps with peer to peer networking.
Those Xbox shooters seem to be offering richer, more technically sophisticated experiences than the PS4 exclusive shooter.
Click to expand...

Unless you have a source for that claim, I'm calling bullshit.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
He's certainly right that we're not going to see a huge 16bit v 32bit or Wii v PS3/360 difference. Both systems will have amazing looking next gen graphics. I'm not sure whether it'll matter that the PS4 does a variety of things better in the graphics department.
 
F

family_guy

Member
Chie Satonaka said:
I understand that this is a silly quote to those of us here on GAF who obsess about these sorts of things, but in the end, I don't see anything especially wrong with his comment. My friends who play video games but wouldn't call themselves "enthusiasts" aren't excited about 8GB GDDR5 RAM.They're excited about playing Call of Duty or Madden or some other shit with new graphics. That's it. They aren't going to scour the internet for specs lists.

It's a PR statement, but it's not totally incorrect. There's many factors that lead into these decisions. Now that Microsoft has reversed (at least somewhat) their policies on that vile stuff they were doing before, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I still think Sony's going to come out on top.
Click to expand...

Okay, but that Call of Duty and Madden theoretically will look and perform better on a console that is $100 cheaper.
 
R

rudieboy77

Member
Jeez what sour grapes. MS all but admitted their setup was weaker when they didn't even mention the specs of the gpu at the press event.
 
G

Gemüsepizza

Member
Garrett 2U said:
To me, it personally is.
I prefer grand gameplay experiences over graphics.
I'm sure they have done very impressive things with the graphics.

But 60fps is a huge deal for me when considering buying a next gen console. If these consoles didn't do 60fps 1080p I was going to skip them and go PC gaming.
Click to expand...

We are talking here about two games, Killzone and Titanfall, which have very different design philosophies behind them. Just because one game, Killzone, which also has a big focus on singleplayer unlike Titanfall, is 30fps and will maybe use P2P (as far as I know KZ is also designed to have less players than Titanfall), this doesn't mean other games won't have 60 fps and dedicated servers on the PS4. We already know that AC4 MP and Battlefield will offer 60 fps on the PS4, and with it's more powerful hardware there is a chance that more titles on PS4 will be 60fps than on X1.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Albert Penello said:
Given the rumored specs for both systems, can anyone conceive of a circumstance or decision one platform holder could make, where despite the theoretical performance benchmarks of the components, the box that appears “weaker” could actually be more powerful?
Click to expand...
Yes. The 360 was theoretically weaker than the PS3. (Unless you take Major Nelson's statements at face value) but it was the more powerful device because it was easier for developers to create great games on.

Mark Cerny has been giving lots of interviews of why they are now much better in that department and he is making a compelling case.

Microsoft is not making a compelling case. I feel insulted when Microsoft employees talk about how the Xbox One connected to the cloud has 3x the power of the Xbox One that is offline.

Make a compelling case and the tune will change.
 
S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
family_guy said:
Okay, but that Call of Duty and Madden theoretically will look and perform better on a console that is $100 cheaper.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Only thing MS can do at this point is bump the specs or spend millions on getting dlc for all those games before everyone else. Still not sure thatll work this time.
 
A

antitrop

Member
Kyoufu said:
This is what you say when your specs are weaker.
Click to expand...

tumblr_inline_mn5r48d8hV1qz4rgp.gif
 
spectyre

spectyre

Member
Garrett 2U said:
Wasting resources as in the 3GB of RAM allocated to make the OS work.

Actually I'm basing that on the fact that the Playstation 4 games don't look richer or more sophisticated than the XboxOne games.
In fact, both TitanFall and Halo are announced to be 60fps and have dedicated servers.
Killzone is announced to be 30fps with peer to peer networking.
Those Xbox shooters seem to be offering richer, more technically sophisticated experiences than the PS4 exclusive shooter.
Click to expand...

Link?
 
C

Chie Satonaka

Member
family_guy said:
Okay, but that Call of Duty and Madden theoretically will look and perform better on a console that is $100 cheaper.
Click to expand...

Not denying that. I'm not saying that the PS4 isn't the better choice, either. To me, it's painfully obvious which direction to go in. For others, not so much, and price isn't the only factor.
 
F

family_guy

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
Exactly. Only thing MS can do at this point is bump the specs or spend millions on getting dlc for all those games before everyone else. Still not sure thatll work this time.
Click to expand...

Yep. People seem to forget that MS is pretty much where Sony was in 2006. They have a more expensive console, games don't look as good, and they are forcing tech on consumers who don't neccesarily want it. Look what happened. People jumped ship or got a 360 first and a PS3 years down the road.

I agree, they will probably do the DLC timed exclusives again.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
PhoenixPause said:
He's certainly right that we're not going to see a huge 16bit v 32bit or Wii v PS3/360 difference. Both systems will have amazing looking next gen graphics. I'm not sure whether it'll matter that the PS4 does a variety of things better in the graphics department.
Click to expand...

How are we defining 'mattering'? What is the arbitrary line in the sand? PS4 is significantly more powerful than XBO, does having the best version of all multiplatform games matter? (which is going to happen, especially by the end of the second year when devs finally are building ground-up next-gen online games with full consideration of PS4's 8GB of GDDR5, since before they were operating on 4GB assumption. Unless devs are braindead zombies who refuse to put even the remotest effort into their ports, which shouldn't happen given how easy PS4 development is alongside XBO, it'll always have the superior version). Does leveraging the extra power to push your first party titles above and beyond what your competitor can do mattering (the power difference in PS4 and XBO, which is far larger than the difference between PS3 and 360, all but guarantees this)?

The point I'm trying to make is that of course it matters. The only thing that seems to be in debate is how much it matters to any specific individual. Are these strengths really enough to overcome a slate of compelling XBO exclusives? Probably not, if indeed Xbox was well ahead in great exclusives. Are these strengths enough to significantly alter the average experience with games on the platform relative to your competition? Absolutely, and if you're a consumer who chooses to educate yourself, it's going to be a factor. To add to the $100 price difference, of course, alongside Kinect and the triggers on XBO or the light indicators and touchpad on PS4.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
SwiftDeath said:
I got me one of those fancy 802.11N routers

My Halo will look better than your Halo :D
Click to expand...
Depending on how the infrastructure is and you live in Janesville, WI or Blacksburg, VA your 802.11N router might not help all that much.

But then again why would you live there?
 
Carnby

Carnby

Member
SwiftDeath said:
I got me one of those fancy 802.11N routers

My Halo will look better than your Halo :D
Click to expand...

hehe. I need to get an N. I'm sick of losing connectivity when someone turns on the microwave.

benny_a said:
Depending on how the infrastructure is and you live in Janesville, WI or Blacksburg, VA your 802.11N router might not help all that much.

But then again why would you live there?
Click to expand...

And let's not forget N is only capable of 144 Mbps, which no one on a home network ever gets. This is really why the cloud is just a buzz word like Blast Processing was in the 90s. But the average consumer doesn't? know the real limitations of networks. MS severes may run at ungodly high speeds, but that in the core level. By the time the frames make it to your hardware in the access group (you) its going to have significantly less throughput.
 
S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
Chie Satonaka said:
Not denying that. I'm not saying that the PS4 isn't the better choice, either. To me, it's painfully obvious which direction to go in. For others, not so much, and price isn't the only factor.
Click to expand...

Yes, the casuals aren't has impressed by specs, just as long as the marketing of the product sells them on the product. Apple is the perfect example of this.

My problem is the fact that, not only do MS have a technically less powerful console on paper, but their marketing has been god awful and some of the decisions are just plain stupid.

Like for example designing a console where its primary objective is being online and doing stuff with others, and yet not even include a basic headset. I dunno if these designers at MS ever ACTUALLY used kinect for online chatting in games, but if they have, theyd know that its god fucking awful. It might work great during a normal Skype call, but let me know how that shit works when you have a games sound effects blasting from ur tv speakers.

Im a MS fan, love Halo, and even I hope that MS falls flat on their face. They deserve to get their asses handed to them.
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
benny_a said:
Depending on how the infrastructure is and you live in Janesville, WI or Blacksburg, VA your 802.11N router might not help all that much.

But then again why would you live there?
Click to expand...

Surely that which is out of my control could not possibly impact the performance of the system I paid for?

Gasp

The internet isn't perfect?
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
I'm going to make a redundant post, but I really just have to point out how moronic it is for MS saying Sony are publishing meaningless numbers after coming with '5 billion transistors'. It hurts my head how stupid MS PR is. It's like they're a collection of butthurt people, more than anyone trying to rectify a stupid situation. They're so set that they know what's best for the gaming, it's quite baffling.
 
P

Pirzolaman

Banned
My God this "next" gen has already delivered in terms of entertainment before it ever began lol. I have heard lots of PR BS talk from many companies in the past, but MS PR is truly the worst shit that has ever shitted on this shitty planet.
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
ekim said:
First: thanks for joining the discussion here.
Regarding the bolded: are you implying that Xbox One's or PS4's specs still might change?
Click to expand...

Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either. :)
 
S

Sorral

Member
Garrett 2U said:
Sorry, I cannot find the source.
Someone posted a tweet in another thread where Guerrilla Games said that they used dedicated servers for stat tracking (every game with stat tracking does) but not for the combat (the actual ingame networking)
Click to expand...

That was for Killzone 2.
 
G

Garrett 2U

Member
Sorral said:
That was for Killzone 2.
Click to expand...
Ah, my mistake.
It was posted in a thread recently though, misleading :p
Although when I tried searching to verify it didn't seem like they have confirmed if they are using dedicated servers for Shadow Fall or not.
I hope they do to help set a precedent.
 
E

ekim

Member
Albert Penello said:
Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either. :)
Click to expand...

Well you guys haven't really disclosed the public on all specs. But assuming the rumored specs are true, I can only conceive of such a circumstance if people are missing something huge in the big picture as both consoles have a very similar architecture.
(You're talking dev tools/drivers?)
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Albert Penello said:
I do want to remind people – this interview was done six weeks ago, before E3. It’s not like we just decided to talk about it. So it wasn't that I just decided to call up OXM and give the my opinion :)

I would like to pose this question to the audience. There are several months until the consoles launch, and any student of the industry will remember, specs change.

Given the rumored specs for both systems, can anyone conceive of a circumstance or decision one platform holder could make, where despite the theoretical performance benchmarks of the components, the box that appears “weaker” could actually be more powerful?

I believe the debate on this could give some light to why we don’t want to engage in a specification debate until both boxes are final and shipping.
Click to expand...

I would argue that debates like these happen because of the information vacuum. By being just the slightest bit more open about their plans, Sony has crafted a narrative around their console. They can talk about specific choices they made and give reasons for those choices that put them in the best possible light. Even if those specs where to change the narrative will persist.

By holding back on concrete details we just get a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Albert Penello said:
Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either. :)
Click to expand...

Is is conceivable for my 6850 to outperform a 6950 both at default clock with the same CPU? Because if so, please share you secret so I don't have to upgrade ;)
 
E

Espada

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
They're used to it. The 360 is also technically the weaker of the two. That was his point, which is not completely wrong.
Click to expand...

PS3 is actually the inferior machine of the two, and it showed. It was also the more difficult console to develop for. Sony was constantly bleating about "the power of the CELL" and saying developers would unleash said power. Turns out the console was weak as hell, and so difficult to work with that few developers squeezed any power out of it.

Hardware power and ease of development certainly matters.
From the developer perspective it makes things easier on them, and they have better hardware to work it.
From the gaming enthusiast perspective it means we get more impressive games sooner.

Silly.Mikey said:
Thats not what people were saying at about this time back then.
Click to expand...
Where were you at back then? Every other week we had developers moaning how hard it was to work with the PS3 and how the UMA in the 360 was a boon.
 
H

hawk2025

Member
Albert Penello said:
Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either. :)
Click to expand...



Well, yes.

But then you can append to the "specs" a file that explains why the architecture adds something "else" you can't see on a simple spec sheet, and people that understand how it works can figure out if it sounds reasonable or not in practice.


We have this thing in Economics called "Signaling Games". In the very stylized version of the model, there are "low" and "high" types, and without full information, the "high" type attempts to differentiate itself from the "low" one by sending a signal to the market, or in the case of two "high" types, both send a signal to the market in order to show both are "high" types.

The "low" type, of course, prefers the pooling equilibrium, where both types are indistinguishable due to asymmetric information.


Do you see where I'm going with this? Just substitute "high" and "low" by "more powerful" and "less powerful". :)
 
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