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XBOX Scorpio: DX12 Built Directly Into GPU
- Thread starter Space_nut
- Start date
LordOfChaos
Member
Jeff from the Techreport thinks this sounds like what was in Polaris already
https://twitter.com/jkampman_tr/status/850032387597664257
https://twitter.com/jkampman_tr/status/850032387597664257
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
So is that mean if normal Jaguar=Sherman, Scorpio version Jaguar=Sherman Firefly?
Not sure if this is the same as HWS.
VincentMatts
Member
They already said that it will have more of an impact on games that already use DX12, not sure about the others. In the end, it takes the OG xbox one and wipes its ass with it, which is what everyone wanted anyway.
You're forgetting one key ingredient, the CPU
I would wait for big name devs the likes of CD Project.
Every new console announcement. Each. All the time.
JeffG
Member
Well, if you disregard forums. Most people were down playing the impact
For example
http://wccftech.com/xbox-one-direct...ute-hardware-specifications-ps4-comparison/5/
Even Phil downplayed it.
Caayn
Member
Consoles used to be able to push more drawcalls vs PC, hence the aim of more drawcalls with DX12 and Vulkan. This seems to take it a step further by doing more with one drawcall.
Hari Seldon
Member
This sounds like a GPU pre-processor. The OS is going to route DX12 calls to this to handle which then sends it to the actual GPU?
Endless entertainment, these threads are. Xbox faithfuls putting in major work this morning, I respect that lol.
dragonelite
Member
Wouldn't be surprised if majority of the dx and vulcan titles are just dx11/opengl on dx12/vulcan.
Sounds like it. Usually the CPU do that job, so it will now be free to do a bit more "actual" calculations... I don't think we will see visual improvements because of THIS, but will help a bit the fact the CPU was a big bottleneck for the system.
Paging DF:
DF if you're reading I'd love to hear your feedback regarding the vega-esque improvements in Pro and the command processor/DX12 hardware implementation for Scorpio. In the DF Pro deep dive late last year it was mentioned that the Pro's GPU implementation had a couple of Vega feature sets, some that later matured into DX12 optimizations on the PC side. How does this compare to what's been done with Scorpio?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...-games-machine
DF if you're reading I'd love to hear your feedback regarding the vega-esque improvements in Pro and the command processor/DX12 hardware implementation for Scorpio. In the DF Pro deep dive late last year it was mentioned that the Pro's GPU implementation had a couple of Vega feature sets, some that later matured into DX12 optimizations on the PC side. How does this compare to what's been done with Scorpio?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...-games-machine
amstradcpc
Member
better.
We'll have to wait until E3 to see honestly. Forza 6 has a crazy optimized engine so it hitting 4K 60 FPS was expected. How other things run will be interesting to see if the latency improvements for the CPU as well as this component of the GPU alleviate the bottleneck.
Wishmaster92
Member
This is interesting, i would like to know this too.
I would also take the wait and see approach, but looking at the screenshot the gpu is still very under utilized while already hitting Native 4k60fps with 4k textures. This makes me think they could hit Native 4k more than 90% of the time with other game engines.
This screenshot was also a stress test (also a positive impression)
12Dannu123
Member
UWP yes it does.
Outrun
Member
It was a DF article. They seemed impressed.
Yeah. I remember the dev of Metro talking about how draw calls were basically invisible on a cpu profiler with a decent console driver. Xbox One wasn't like this originally, but it made improvements here already. Similarly I remember with dx12 and vulkan, those dramatic profiler graphs where draw call overhead basically dropped off a cliff.
Improvements are always welcome but if the job your optimising isn't a big fraction of your frametime, the wins in the bigger picture and how much you can free up might be pretty small.
icecold1983
Member
single spec and closed box optimization is real within reason. its not much of a stretch that scorpio could be close to a 1070
LukasTaves
Member
They said they tuned the pix to allow emulating hardware (that's probably how they are achieving the test once see how the game is running on all platforms that Jez talked about), and that they were porting games to it and tuning to reduce bottlenecks.
Specifically on the Cpu they said they improved latency, so cpu utilization is higher, reduced the memory contention issue (that which is the more memory bandwidth the cpu uses disproportionally there's less bandwidth for the gpu), and created a separate processor for the most intensive cpu task.
So, even though it's still jaguar, should perform better, and be less of an bottleneck.
For reference: They said draw calls make the most of the cpu time on xbone (didn't gave an number) and said that with dx12 that time was reduced up to by 50% (so if before it used to be 40% of cpu time with dx12 it goes to 20%). With this they are essentially reducing the cpu time allocated to draw calls essentially to 0, so all that is available to the game.
Considering the 31% faster clock, the latency/memory improvements and that, it possibly offers a substantial more cpu performance to the games. Hopefully enough so that doesn't causes slowdowns.
dr_rus
Member
I somewhat cringed at this part of DF's today reveal as it's basically a techobabble as in saying something pretty which doesn't really mean anything to be quoted by the fans further down the road ("but does this GPU moved to DX12???")
Without actual technical details it's really hard to say whether this is something unique to Scorpio or is already present in all modern GCN GPUs for example.
Without actual technical details it's really hard to say whether this is something unique to Scorpio or is already present in all modern GCN GPUs for example.
TheHellsLord
Member
It's more like DirectX 12 allowing more direct access to the actual hardware. However different graphics cards still expect the commands to arrive in a different way - you could say they use different languages to convey the same meaning. And that's what the driver does in the end - translate from a common language (DirectX) to the specific languages (AMD - Polaris/Vega/etc. - which are more like Dialects to each other or Nvidia - Kepler/etc)
One big advantage on consoles is that you don't have to have an interface between the API (DirectX) and the Driver. You can simply build the Driver into the API as the hardware won't change anyway. Still the API and the hardware don't speak the same "language".
The way I take it is that there now is a separate command processor that maps pretty directly to what DX12 calls look like. So the CPU does no longer need to do that "translation" work, freeing it up for other tasks. Older DX11.x software would still run and still need to do the "translation" but will still be supported.
This might lead to higher framerates in cases where the CPU is the limiting factor. We'll see how often that is the case.
One big advantage on consoles is that you don't have to have an interface between the API (DirectX) and the Driver. You can simply build the Driver into the API as the hardware won't change anyway. Still the API and the hardware don't speak the same "language".
The way I take it is that there now is a separate command processor that maps pretty directly to what DX12 calls look like. So the CPU does no longer need to do that "translation" work, freeing it up for other tasks. Older DX11.x software would still run and still need to do the "translation" but will still be supported.
This might lead to higher framerates in cases where the CPU is the limiting factor. We'll see how often that is the case.
Yup seen with Forza 4K demo thread
Alx
Member
Nope, GPGPU = General Purpose on GPU = using a GPU to do non-graphic stuff.
The features discussed are purely about graphics, so that's "regular GPU stuff", not general purpose.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Disappointed there hasn't been the DX12 button press gif already.
regarding dx12 on console I'm sure its groundhog day with that.
regarding dx12 on console I'm sure its groundhog day with that.
JeffG
Member
huh?
DirectX runs on the cpu.
This API handles the communication with the Graphics card
Thats the whole point
To separate the Application from the underlying hardware
What has happened is that the portion of DirectX that ran on the CPU is now encoded into hardware
(Think of it like this...those DirectX dll's that are installed onto your PC (and ran on your CPU)....they now execute in hardware of the CPU)
Bitch Pudding
Member
Oh, you.gif
Principate
Saint Titanfall
he literally address this in the video, normally thousands of calls have been reduced to 11
(paraphrasing as I don't have time to watch again)
RedAssedApe
Banned
space_nuts is kind of going all in in every scorpio thread
dr_rus
Member
Is it encoded in binary though or leet speak?
If you don't get it the first time, what was said in DF's article makes no sense. As in none at all.
Calls? As in draw calls? So it's about batching then? 8)
Instructions, not calls. I still want some input from someone more knowledgeable.
Backfoggen
Banned
I'm excited for Scorpio but this sounds like some weird shit they throw out there for people to latch onto.
Words cannot express how horrible a mistake Microsoft made by revealing the hardware specifications for Scorpio at E3 '16. What on earth were they thinking? Sony intentionally remained silent about the final Pro specifications because they didn't want to reveal all their cards. They said it - Scorpio is not a next gen console. Their greatest priority, i.e., Microsoft and Sony would have been to ensure that their customer bases adopt Scorpio and Pro smoothly. By revealing the specifications and launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony the following advantages:
1) A frame of reference to work with which Sony capitalized on by underspec'ing the Pro. Majority of console titles are cross-platform. If cross-platform developers wish to maintain healthy sales across both console platforms, then they will have no choice but to tailor games with comparable IQ. Speaking of IQ, the human eye can't really discern the difference between native 4K and checkerboard rendered 4K. Before they revealed the final specifications for Scorpio, Microsoft only lost ground when it came to exclusives. They didn't really have an advantage with Scorpio. But because they revealed the specifications of Scorpio, they unintentionally gave Sony an advantage who cheekily used the concept of least common denominator to set the standard for 4K-capable console h/w specification.
2) By revealing the launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony a window of opportunity to ramp up production of the Pro. By launching earlier, Sony had sufficient time to ensure that a healthy portion of their existing customer base would smoothly transition over to the Pro by the time Scorpio launched.
Still think i'm wrong?
The writing is all there on the wall! In fact, it has been there since Sony announced the Pro in September 2016. Why do you think Microsoft tried convincing everyone that Scorpio was still more powerful than the PS4 Pro when we didn't need to be reminded in the first place? The day Sony announced the Pro was when Microsoft started sh***ing bricks by the truckload. Moreover, Leadbetter from DF didn't even seem excited today. Everybody who was looking forward to the DF analysis of Scorpio were expecting gameplay videos. We already know what to expect from the h/w. Instead, DF reported the same news about the h/w, no different from last year. Everybody was expecting FM7 and instead we were treated to a single screenshot of a souped up version of FM6 running on Scorpio! WTF!!! :ko:
Want more indirect proof?
Check out the disassembly tutorials of the PS4 Slim and the Pro on iFixit. The quality of the components used to manufacture the PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro pass QC but are not as good as Xbox One S. This tells me that Sony has sacrificed QC to launch the PS4 Slim and the Pro as early as possible.
Stupid MS.For 499 only an Idiot Buys this when Pro is available far cheaper.
1) A frame of reference to work with which Sony capitalized on by underspec'ing the Pro. Majority of console titles are cross-platform. If cross-platform developers wish to maintain healthy sales across both console platforms, then they will have no choice but to tailor games with comparable IQ. Speaking of IQ, the human eye can't really discern the difference between native 4K and checkerboard rendered 4K. Before they revealed the final specifications for Scorpio, Microsoft only lost ground when it came to exclusives. They didn't really have an advantage with Scorpio. But because they revealed the specifications of Scorpio, they unintentionally gave Sony an advantage who cheekily used the concept of least common denominator to set the standard for 4K-capable console h/w specification.
2) By revealing the launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony a window of opportunity to ramp up production of the Pro. By launching earlier, Sony had sufficient time to ensure that a healthy portion of their existing customer base would smoothly transition over to the Pro by the time Scorpio launched.
Still think i'm wrong?
The writing is all there on the wall! In fact, it has been there since Sony announced the Pro in September 2016. Why do you think Microsoft tried convincing everyone that Scorpio was still more powerful than the PS4 Pro when we didn't need to be reminded in the first place? The day Sony announced the Pro was when Microsoft started sh***ing bricks by the truckload. Moreover, Leadbetter from DF didn't even seem excited today. Everybody who was looking forward to the DF analysis of Scorpio were expecting gameplay videos. We already know what to expect from the h/w. Instead, DF reported the same news about the h/w, no different from last year. Everybody was expecting FM7 and instead we were treated to a single screenshot of a souped up version of FM6 running on Scorpio! WTF!!! :ko:
Want more indirect proof?
Check out the disassembly tutorials of the PS4 Slim and the Pro on iFixit. The quality of the components used to manufacture the PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro pass QC but are not as good as Xbox One S. This tells me that Sony has sacrificed QC to launch the PS4 Slim and the Pro as early as possible.
Stupid MS.For 499 only an Idiot Buys this when Pro is available far cheaper.
LukasTaves
Member
No, there is bottlenecks. This is a console designed to reduce the bottlenecks on the xbone architecture running current games. Basically what's stopped those games from achieving the target framerate and resolution.
It's not a console that can get any 900p30fps game on xbone and run it 4k60 as "no bottlenecks" would imply.
Stevey
Member
This reads like some jeff_rigby alt account.
Completely disagree with everything in your post.