Nope, that would be me as well... dual VA is nice but I come from a time when we would be lucky at all to get a text (or voice) intensive RPG released in English, where we'd have to put up with shitty dubs (Star Ocean 2!) or large swaths of content axed (Persona PS1). Nowadays, we're rather spoiled... most games released have at least a competent English dub (even with the propensity to use the same actors over and over and over...) with some games having rather exceptional English acting (Resonance of Fate, DQ8).
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XSEED Translator on why all games don't get dual audio
- Thread starter Stuart444
- Start date
Nope, that would be me as well... dual VA is nice but I come from a time when we would be lucky at all to get a text (or voice) intensive RPG released in English, where we'd have to put up with shitty dubs (Star Ocean 2!) or large swaths of content axed (Persona PS1). Nowadays, we're rather spoiled... most games released have at least a competent English dub (even with the propensity to use the same actors over and over and over...) with some games having rather exceptional English acting (Resonance of Fate, DQ8).
fvng
Member
I'm stunned that even after XSEED's incredibly thoughtful and reasonable explanation why original VO can't be included sometimes there are still comments like this. Can you say entitled? Shit. Did you even read the OP?
XSEED isn't entitled to his money either. It's not his fault they failed to deliver a product he wants.
Uhh..
Yes, this. This "entitled" nonsense is incredibly out of line these days. Customers can spend their money however they want to, and they aren't "entitled" if they choose not to buy something if it's not what they want. They don't have to justify their spending to anyone, but saying why they didn't purchase it and making that clear will assist publishers in determining whether to change their strategy or not.
Lol. it's incredibly easy to fix this shit.
When make games, Japanese companies should just include 'your voice shall be used in foreign market when we license game there lol' line in the contract.
But whether they will do it or not is... I don't know. Will they? Koei games apparently got this issue fixed.
When make games, Japanese companies should just include 'your voice shall be used in foreign market when we license game there lol' line in the contract.
But whether they will do it or not is... I don't know. Will they? Koei games apparently got this issue fixed.
fvng
Member
Xseed's point is that the ball was never in 'their' court. It's never up to them in the first place.
No doubt, I wasn't disputing whether or not he has the freedom to spend his money on whatever he'd like.
I guess I'm just from the school of thought that says you should support the franchises and series that you like the most, so they continue to release them.
Unless you speak Japanese, you don't have an alternative as a fan of the franchise, and I don't understand why anyone would boycott a franchise they like unless the publisher was up to ethically dubious practices (Capcom, EA)
Xseed is right, boycotting a game like this only sends an ambiguous message to the publisher, and there is no reason for them to think that the primary reason it wasn't successful was because of the audio track. It could totally be interpreted as a lack of interest by the publisher.
"oh i won't buy this game, this way they'll know I want the original voice acting"
fat chance.
Pureauthor
Member
Consumers give money for a product they want, which may or may not be the product the producers are offering.
Throwing vitriol at XSEED for not getting the Japanese VA is one thing, and just saying 'ok then, no buy' is another.
I just got a NA version of Virtue's Last Reward because the localized version doesn't have the English dubbing (but it is subbed). While I can understand why someone would want the Japanese voice track, I much prefer it in English since I'll be able to pick up on the subtleties of spoken dialogue and I like to reward a well voice acted game. It's fine if you don't want to support dual audio but you'll have to send a message as to why otherwise your non-sale doesn't count for much AND hope it reaches the ears of someone with the power to change it.
I don't have a 3DS yet so I can't play the game.
Think of it from the Japanese company's perspective: there is no guarantee a western publisher will pick up your game. OKing voice work for international audiences is an additional costs you might not need to spend.
Of course, in a situation like Atelier, the parent company is releasing the game globally so I dunno what's going on there.
Okay, so say the scenario develops to this point: The guy who really wanted japanese voices caves in and buys the game, but his enjoyment is greatly diminished.
The message that the publisher can now interpret from the sale of this game is now "Well, the game sold fine without dual audio, it must not be that necessary. We're not going to bother putting it in or try very hard to have it in the next game."
Communicating why you didn't buy the game is key, because if consumers don't hold their ass to the fire, they will interpret the wrong message.
While it might suck that XSEED may have no control over what happenes, it sucks even more that the consumer didn't get what they wanted. I'm not going to ever buy a product that I don't want out of pity for a company, and if anyone ever does that they are a fool.
What does XSEED have to do with Atelier Ayesha and it not including original VO? Because I don't see how XSEED might know for sure that the ball was never in KT's court.
They don't have to spend a single DIME. Just add the line in the contract and if voice actors and their promotion company OK it, there is no problem.
Of course they all do negotiate the wage and guarantee and what not before they go to production stage.
If voice actors are not OK with it? Then don't hire them. There are actually plenty of voice actors in Japan that are actually willing to work at reasonable price.
In the particular case of T-K's Ayesha release mess (which hits me hardest personally) it seems almost impossible to "send a message", since it is unclear whether the company actually exists. I hope someone somewhere looks at previous Atelier sales and Ayesha sales and gets the idea that dual audio releases may be advantageous.
At least with XSEED it's obvious that they are aware of the issue and are doing their best.
At least with XSEED it's obvious that they are aware of the issue and are doing their best.
Exactly.
fvng
Member
That's exactly my point. They have no say, with regard to the games they publish, obviously not Atelier Ayesha.
fair points, I'm not sure if Xseed has any forums open for their fans, but I hope there is. However, Despite that Xseed isn't drawing up the contracts for the voice actors for the original development of the game. The best they can do is urge the original developers to adjust their contracts to make it easier for their games to sell in the west.
You guys do realize we're not the publishers for any of the Atelier games, right? Just wanted to make that clear, as it seems like a few people here may be getting confused on that end.
Yep, pretty much this. And we honestly do push to keep the original Japanese voices, every time. Sometimes we're successful (Corpse Party, Way of the Samurai 4, Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls)... and other times, not so much. But we try every time, and you'd better believe we'll keep on trying in the future as well!
Sadly, we're less than a dozen strong over here, so our voices don't exactly come across all that loudly or menacingly to the Japanese devs, no matter how much we growl or ululate.
-Tom
I think most people are aware of that. It just naturally comes up since it's by far the most controversial dual audio related event recently. A series/franchise that had dual audio for 6 releases suddenly losing the feature is unprecedented, AFAIK.You guys do realize we're not the publishers for any of the Atelier games, right? Just wanted to make that clear, as it seems like a few people here may be getting confused on that end.
Just tell me where to direct the email botnet.Sadly, we're less than a dozen strong over here, so our voices don't exactly come across all that loudly or menacingly to the Japanese devs, no matter how much we growl or ululate.
It is funny though (if there is an actual misunderstanding and not just poor communication) that Atelier Ayesha is focused on more to the point there may be publisher confusion, because that really is the case where everyone's going "what the hell?" given previous games had it, and that's why to me it's a far bigger deal than the usual single audio track game. Granted, I cared more with Onimusha (come on THE GAMES TAKE PLACE IN JAPAN and the second and third got crazy corny), but in any case most series either flirt with it, keep it when the space is there, or just don't bother beyond the first game. It's completely unusual when you reliably do it over a whole series THEN drop it, it begs the question "why?"
Meanwhile, for anyone that missed it, the real reason this topic came up:
Meanwhile, for anyone that missed it, the real reason this topic came up:
I think most people can see how ridiculously minor this is, especially when you consider the original versions (PC) didn't have any voice work that wasn't for songs, and those weren't dubbed anyway.
If you include the Mana Khemia games that jumps to 8. Include Gust games period, I believe 11. NISA nearly did similar once, but they opted to delay instead (Phantom Brave Wii.)
I didn't know. Then again, I wasn't lashing out. I always try to support devs and publishers when I can (if I am interested in the game that is.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
yes I did, and it still doesn't matter, but now I know there are reasons behind it.
I'm not going to say "oh it's because of silly japan" and buy your game. See how Koei is handling the Atelier series, it's obvious that they don't care.
""Well, the game sold fine without dual audio, it must not be that necessary. We're not going to bother putting it in or try very hard to have it in the next game."" that's exactly the reason I'm not buying it, next time they'll see what else they can take out :/
Trials 2 could have the characters talking in any fucking language and I'll buy it, all I want is my English text
fvng
Member
You guys do realize we're not the publishers for any of the Atelier games, right? Just wanted to make that clear, as it seems like a few people here may be getting confused on that end.
-Tom
Yeah, I know you guys are are not the publisher for the Atelier games.... (Sorry if my previous posts didn't make that clearer)
I'm just defending your rationale in the interview. I am saying you should not penalize Xseed (or any other localizer) for voice acting contracts that are beyond Xseed's control. Maybe it's my old school thought but I try to support franchises and developers that I really love, and I can't fathom skipping a game just because it didn't check one particular box. That's just me though
Why do you think Koei will interpret your skipped purchase as a protest of the lack of japanese voice overs in the western release?
Well, I was put off enough by SE switching out anime portraits for SO4 for CGI, but not only am I generally more fond of hand drawn stuff anyway it was completely fucking ridiculous to see a non-kids game doing this at this point in time. Hell, most kids games wouldn't do that sort of shit nowadays either, and in SO4's case it was stupid and pointless since any attempt to cover up the "anime" wasn't effective with the cutscenes and the character design.
Incidentally, it's also not really an example of "didn't check one particular box" given the cutscenes were repugnant and the gameplay arguably wasn't even the best of the SO series anyway. And they put out a PS3 version with both those anime portraits and Japanese VA so it became a moot point.
Well, for one thing, I sent them a message to that end on every channel I could find.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
They won't. That's just not how it works in Glorious Nippon.
Tom, have you tried breaking a dev. over your knee when they refuse to give you Japanese voices? Try it -- they're surprisingly pliable!
fvng
Member
That's fair, I think you did your part as a consumer to voice what you want. Ball is in their court now.
You listed multiple reasons you had beefs with that game, I think that's fair to boycott the 360 version of SO4 given your handfull of reasons.
I'm only talking about localizations that didn't check one particular box. That strikes me as unreasonable since it's impossible to meet everyone's desired criteria, and ultimately every game will not meet every single one of your expectations. And yes I know, it's your money and you can do whatever you want with it, but if I only have ONE issue with a game, I could not see myself skipping it because of one unlisted bullet point on the back of the box.
I think Atelier Ayesha example is keep coming up because its one of the latest and controversial(as other titles in the series had JP voice) title that left out JP voice.
I can understand point of XSEED, especially since they are small company. But it still feels weird to me some of the bigger publishers (Bandai Namco for Tales series, Square Enix for their JRPGs Atlus for Persona) leaving out Japanese voice. I always wonder if they can negotiate the terms with Japanese VAs (agents) in advance consdering international release. Like how other parts of Asia (china, taiwan, Korea etc) gets Japanese VA for Final Fantasy titles. Same with Persona. Maybe the contract is restricted to within Asia?
I can understand point of XSEED, especially since they are small company. But it still feels weird to me some of the bigger publishers (Bandai Namco for Tales series, Square Enix for their JRPGs Atlus for Persona) leaving out Japanese voice. I always wonder if they can negotiate the terms with Japanese VAs (agents) in advance consdering international release. Like how other parts of Asia (china, taiwan, Korea etc) gets Japanese VA for Final Fantasy titles. Same with Persona. Maybe the contract is restricted to within Asia?
It may also be that they keep trying to convey people DO care to the higher ups, but they simply don't care. Or whatever deals they prefer to go for almost always leave out VA (nevermind what happened when they DID offer it in P4A.) Each of the companies is likely run quite differently too, Namco may not have seen it as really mattering until recently beyond their fighters, and SE may for the most part be fully ignorant that people care, whereas a company like Xseed is more passionate, AND a company like Tecmo Koei may not really exist.
To add to your point, it really paints a bad picture of Tecmo-Koei (and other, larger corporations) when a small localization company like NISA was able to get everything in order for a dual audio release of Gust games 11 times in a row -- and almost all their other localized titles from a variety of studios -- while the large companies fail to do so even when they have full control over the developer and product. Unlike the XSEED situation, where I can accept that they are powerless in some cases, that just gives the appearance of not caring.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
For higher ups, I'd imagine it's a pretty simple situation:
Getting the Japanese VAs requires time and/or money.
Is there a proven impact on sales if Japanese VAs are included? No.
Will it take time that could be spent on other endeavors, like not advertising my product (in the case of Tecmo-Koei)? Yes.
Will it cost money? Probably.
Even if there's a fan outcry for Japanese VAs, the bigger companies aren't going to give a fuck, because they know their audience is probably a pack of weeaboos who are going to complain on message boards and then buy their shit anyway. There'll be maybe one or two resolute people who actually boycott the game, but the effect that has on their bottom line is waaaaaaaay less significant than the costs of actually procuring Japanese voices.
And there's really nothing you can do about it. Even if Japanophiles banded together to boycott the game, and the game sold like shit, the publisher's just going to view that as "wow, nobody wants this franchise." And then, you aren't getting Atelier Shenehneh or whatever the fuck they're calling the next game in any language, unless it's full Japanese. Mission accomplished?
Fortunately, the smaller companies like XSEED, Aksys, etc. are far more receptive to what the fans want (well, they probably have to appease the fans, given their size.) Even if they can't get us the JP audio, I appreciate that they at least try.
dakkumauji
Member
Just a note on that, dual audio release for Gust's console games. They skipped out on dubbing the Atelier Annie DS game they released, probably cause it was already a small scale release to begin with.
The weird thing though is that (most) of those bigger companies HAVE put out games with dual audio, Atlus is quite possibly THE reason NISA cares so much as they established the precedent with Disgaea (not unless that was a weird inversion where NIS as the developer insisted themselves.) SE's actually probably the biggest exception and most likely to really not care, though even they used it as a feature to sell re-releases like Last Remnant PC or Star Ocean 4 International. Tecmo Koei meanwhile not only done that with games like Ninja Gaiden (missing on Vita, but possibly due to space even though they pulled it off for Totori) but has released several games without ENGLISH DUBBING. So on their end it's really just baffling period.
So that leaves 12 games with Japanese audio. But I suspect if Atelier Annie WERE dubbed it'd have been the first exception, and unlike the rest that really can be written off as a technical limitation, memory's a premium on DS afterall. Actually Iris could probably count as a technical limitation given all the bugs that seemed to introduce, but they crammed it in anyway.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Why do you think Koei will interpret your skipped purchase as a protest of the lack of japanese voice overs in the western release?[/QUOTE]
I posted in their facebook site several times and sent an email, a lot of people did. Buying a game because "oh no, they might not bring them anymore" is sad, we are the consumers, they have to bring what we want.
not the other way around.
I posted in their facebook site several times and sent an email, a lot of people did. Buying a game because "oh no, they might not bring them anymore" is sad, we are the consumers, they have to bring what we want.
not the other way around.
fvng
Member
I posted in their facebook site several times and sent an email, a lot of people did. Buying a game because "oh no, they might not bring them anymore" is sad, we are the consumers, they have to bring what we want.
not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
That's the right way. I'm glad your efforts don't stop at not buying the game, that's what i was afraid of.
They don't have to do anything. If they don't feel a game will be profitable to release they don't have to release it just because the vocal minority want it. To be successful they need to bring games that people want sure, but skipping games in a series will lead to them feeling that future games won't sell and will give them less incentive to bring them over... it really goes both ways.
Customers needs to make sure to support games that they enjoy, and companies need to make sure that their releases make the customers happy. The customer doesn't have to buy releases they don't want though, and companies don't have to release games that only some customers want.
Supporting a series because it might not come anymore if you skip it, is not only not sad (yay double negatives
), it's simple economics. If there isn't good demand for a product, then the seller of said product will be less likely to continue to try to push that product. They will have two choices to either try to increase demand for the product, or move to a new product they feel will have more demand and sell better. In the video game industry it's far more often that a company will just move to a new product instead of trying to increase demand for an old product. Thus where the buying a game just to make sure the next game of the series comes in.To be clear though I am not saying that you have to buy the game to make sure it continues to come out. When it comes down to it you should just buy what you think you will enjoy. But those who want to invest in a product line even though the current product isn't up the the quality the wanted aren't sad or wrong, they are simply investing in a company in hopes that their investment will provide them with a superior product they can enjoy down the line, something that there is absolutely nothing wrong with.
That all being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you are doing it either. While others are expending money to try to make sure that the series they enjoy continues to come out, you are expending time. You have taken the time to message the company to explain why you are skipping a release, which is great, it's far better than just skipping over a release and hoping the company figures out why you did instead of just assuming the series lost it's appeal. To be fair though, while you found people buying the game just in hopes to get the next one sad, others could easily find your actions sad. A video game company in general is just going to listen to money, going around bothering to message them (especially a company like koei who can't be bothered to announce they are releasing games) could be considered nothing more than a waste of time, something that you can't get more of, thus something even more valuable than money to some.
As I said though there is nothing wrong with doing this, if enough people do it the companies are sure to pay attention, my main point is labeling one method or another try to keep a series you enjoy coming with an inferior release happens as sad just seems wrong to me. The important thing is whether you expend time or money, that you are at least doing something to keep the games you enjoy coming, which to me could never be considered sad, it's admirable as it's more than your average gamer will do.
for the tl;dr: game publishers tend to listen to money first, make sure you support the series you like in some way whether it's with time or money.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I'm buying Totori plus instead of Ayesha, a friend bought Ayesha so I'll just grab it and play it instead of paying. If the next game has voices, I'm buying day 1 and supporting them.
I'll keep screaming and bitching at them at their facebook and email accounts of course
They are bringing what I want. Well for the most part anyway. I don't think I've purchased a non-Atlus RPG in a while aside from Tales of Graces f, and no Japanese dub could have saved that story.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
oh Graces.... amazing combat with ZZzzzzzZZZZZ story
The most you can hope for with a Japanese dub "fixing" a story is that you're spared from actually hearing and understanding the idiocy spewed by the main characters. But it'll probably still be really damn annoying and dumb, though in this case it probably applies more to SO4 than Graces f, which just sounds like it's boring.
SO4 makes ToG f look like fucking Shakespeare.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
SO4 is shitty on ANOTHER level
The Last Story also has one of the best dubs I've heard in the past 5-10 years, so that's also very likely a part of that.
And therein lies the problem. You're fighting up to of 20 years of personal experience of VO actors phoning in their dubs and the studios releasing the product completely not giving a shit. It's sullied the entire concept of dubs in general to a large portion of the audience for niche games.
Time for those voice actors to get new agents, then. Money left on the table for the same amount of labor seems like far too much of a missed opportunity.
Now that I think about it, part of the reason people are likely "fine" with it is because it's been the industry standard from since voice acting was something you could actually put in by significant amounts. Some people are like Durante and want to specifically promote it where applicable, but by far most just accept it's the exception rather than the norm to have multiple dubs, and it's only been within the last two generation it's really been practical to provide it. Hell, the nature of games versus DVDs/blu-rays/any digital video format means it will always remain trickier in games, as you can more realistically use up all your space on a disc, or have to recode to adapt it due to being a highly interactive piece of work rather than just, well, a video. Then of course most don't really even care for alternate voice tracks to begin with.
So, yeah, most likely don't care, a good chunk who DO care recognize for whatever reason it's the exception, and are just happy if the option's even there whether or not they use it.
And I'm calling bullshit here, on the time frame anyway. The first decade (90s) generally had pretty rotten dubs, but near the end of that things were starting to turn around, likely because most companies were realizing it's NOT the exception anymore, and most dubs of over the last decade (00s) have actually been pretty good! That's when quality like XSEED's became the norm rather than the exception (not counting Last Story here really, that was all done by NoE), nowadays I think any notions of dubs being universally bad are based on the notion only the original VA's valid, are from the mentality fostered in that first decade and never letting it go, having absurdly high standards for a video game dub that likely couldn't be reached period, or the fact the base material can be kind of bad for dubbing period... and to an extent, I think if it's not just bias it's likely that last one admittedly. We're talking about character types that may not work too well for English, or would be annoying to our sensibilities period, there's really not much to be done without redoing the game to an extent.
R_thanatos
Member
There are still dubs made that are really atrocious . When someone make a good dubs, ok it deserve a praise but there are plenty of bad dubs for all thing anime related released each year ..
If a game is so anime oriented that the dub comes impossible to be done properly , then just don't dub it.
I would also argue that even from the very beginning of dubs in the early '90s, there were a sizable number of examples of GOOD dubbing -- look at Ys Book I & II, for example. That game is from 1993, and it still holds up to this day as an outstanding dub in all regards.
Popful Mail, for as much as people may malign it due to all the ridiculous humor, also has a pretty solid dub very much on par with the best of anime dubbing from that era.
Granted, for every Ys Book I & II, there's an Ys III... but I still maintain that the ratio of good dubs to bad wasn't quite as dire as people made it out to be. The fact is, there simply weren't that many Japanese games with voice-acting to be found until the latter half of the decade, so every example of sub-par voice-acting stuck out like a sore thumb.
-Tom
This is half taste, half a case of what the work was like to begin with. There's a lot of anime-type stuff that seems effectively impossible to dub properly, but there's a lot that comes out fantastic, and quite a bit of the "impossible to dub properly" can still be mostly fine, only cases like SO4 come off as irredeemable and that's nearly insufferable SILENT.
Oh, yeah, there's exceptions and it cuts both ways: Ys I & II had a great dub as you highlight whereas Ys III... I have to be honest, it's like they got Matt Stone and/or Trey Parker to do a completely straight dub of a game, Chester sounds like a throw away character you'd hear in South Park. And for all the issues people had with Working Designs they undeniably had dubs above anyone else for that period, and can probably be argued as generally equal to modern ones still, and we had some pretty good voice work show up in the late 90s, namely Metal Gear Solid and Soul Reaver that nowadays could seem rather pedestrian.
In contrast, this last decade still had Chaos Wars, which doesn't have the excuse of great voice actors on poor source material, Baten Kaitos was a jarring shift from how good the dubs were for Xenosaga and Tales of Symphonia, and it seems like Shining Force Neo had a pretty rotten dub too, and there's probably several smaller games where they phoned it in because it was such a small part of the game yet SCEA insisted on it.