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[AmuroChan]

Thanks for explaining. I wasn't familiar with any of The Order's marketing, outside of "Old London people with mustaches, armor, and cool guns".

This is probably the most thorough trailer out there. The fight with the rebels is well documented in this trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7SbgvtBDCQ

 

[Doukou]

I take it you're in the "Bayonetta is the most sexist portrayal of women" crowd which always seems to ignore the fact she was designed by a woman?

Off-topic but is NAOWS not sexist then? Something is not sexist towards woman just because it's made by a woman. Anyways seems like the Journslist was misinformed.

 

[GobFather]

No, she didn't, it's just that fans of the game are choosing the wrong point to harp on and want to defend the game at all costs.

why DOES this get repeated in every thread about the Order Defenders even if the people were just telling you that you were wrong? I don't understand.

 

[Stereogatari]

The point of the article, and my first post, is that people will constantly use the "historical accuracy" argument to justify the lack of non-whites in games.

Whitewash modern day London and I agree with you.

But whitewashing Victorian era London doesn't seem so bad to me because the demographics of that era were overwhelmingly white.

 

[Crossing Eden]

So again, how would an out of context shot of a person in a revel uniform reveal that the person was a major part of the plot?

She's with Galahad in every one of her scenes. She's the rebel leader. People aren't so stupid that we wouldn't be able to figure out why he's with her.

 

[NexusCell]

Why would that be a spoiler? If people didn't know what rebels were, then an out of context shot of someone in the uniform wouldn't mean anything and if they did, then how would they know that the character was a major part of the plot from a single shot?

You're original argument was how there were no minority main characters in the game. Posters correctly pointed out that this was incorrect and that one of the major characters was Indian.

Suddenly, you then shift to talking about them no being present in marketing material, despite the characters being spoilers.

Look, I'm all for diversity in games, but your arguments aren't helping. In fact, people like the author (and possibly you) that don't even play the game yet rag about representation are the reason why some people don't take these types of criticisms seriously. If you want to talk about representation, then at the very least play through the game your about to critique, or at least watch a playthrough.

 

[jmood88]

People know who the Rebels are.

The original argument was that the game didn't have much in the way of representation. That was corrected. Suddenly the goal post was moved to marketing. Marketing for a game that was incredibly light on content, even taking into consideration how short the game is.

No, that was not I, or the quote I posted, said. What was posted was about the Knights, who were presented as all white even though there was at least one black knight in the group.

Part of the mystery is who these rebels are, who is organizing them, and why do they seem tied with the half-breeds that The Order deal with. Showing that character would give away some of that, and most if not all of her scenes and such don't leave much wiggle room to show her off without it giving away one of the beat changes in the game.

I disagree but it really doesn't even matter at this point.

 

[SystemBug]

Marketing aside, The Order is one of the few games where Indian characters are central to the plot of the story. So if that's something you care about, then the game is a must-play for you.

I know, I saw a picture of the Indian woman in the Console screenshot thread. It actually kind of wanted me to pick up the pre-order I already put $30 towards.

 

[Funyarinpa]

One thing that should be considered though is that the creator of a work should be free to put whatever cast of characters they want.

The "werewolves are allowed, but no blacks" argument is certainly silly though, though obviously the black demographic of London was smaller in that time period than it is now.

I agree with your assessment of "white-washing" of history and characters in general.

One thing that annoys me is Uncharted 2's portrayal of Turks as brown skinned, when many Turks are as white as Drake himself is, but as far as I remember none of the Turkish guards were the same skin colour as Drake...

I'm Turkish, and I'd never heard about this before. That's kind of funny, since your average Turk indeed has the same skin tone as the random white European person. Kind of weird that there was nobody on the team (iirc there was one or two Turks in ND team) that warned them about Turks' skin color. I assume that is the case because I cannot justify it being a design decision for whatever reason (I'm not offended or anything, though).

Well, I now wonder how UC2 portrays Turks.

 

[Fury451]

So again, how would an out of context shot of a person in a revel uniform reveal that the person was a major part of the plot?

How would it not? You don't think anyone would've asked more about her? She's a major story character that literally kick starts the eventual revelations of the game, and is integral to how everything unfolds with Galahad. Revealing her early would've messed that up.

As was said, she'll be huge in a sequel, and will more than likely show up in promo materials at that time.

Find something else to be upset with. This is the one time when "box art hates diversity" doesn't make sense.

This is the wrong game to make this point.

In a nutshell, /thread.

Plenty of other choices of this practice, for all it's faults, The Order was not one of these offenders.

 

[prwxv3]

This is the wrong game to make this point.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

This is what happens when people get overly-defensive about a game.

The point of the article, and my first post, is that people will constantly use the "historical accuracy" argument to justify the lack of non-whites in games. Prior to The Order coming out, there were a lot of people in here defending the lack of non-white characters in the world (as people keep saying, the two Indian characters who appear were not shown in any marketing materials) by making comments based not on historical fact but on a whitewashing of history that is present in popular culture. It's not a criticism that is limited to The Order but it is the most recent game in which this has come up, which is why it was mentioned.

You're arguing about historical accuracy in a game with werewolves. They claimed London would look accurate and that the technology would be feasible for the time. I don't remember them claiming anything else but please feel free to prove otherwise.

 

[prwxv3]

No, she didn't, it's just that fans of the game are choosing the wrong point to harp on and want to defend the game at all costs.

This is rich coming from you who is using the wrong game to make a point on.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You're original argument was how there were no minority main characters in the game. Posters correctly pointed out that this was incorrect and that one of the major characters was Indian.

Suddenly, you then shift to talking about them no being present in marketing material, despite the characters being spoilers.

Look, I'm all for diversity in games, but your arguments aren't helping. In fact, people like the author (and possibly you) that don't even play the game yet rag about representation are the reason why some people don't take these types of criticisms seriously. If you want to talk about representation, then at the very least play through the game your about to critique, or at least watch a playthrough.

Exactly.

 

[nynt9]

This is the wrong game to make this point.

Why are you being so defensive?! Stop correcting factual inaccuracies!

Spoiler

/s

 

[akidnamededdy]

This is the wrong game to make this point.

For real. With as upset as some people are trying to get, you'd think they'd have no problem finding a better example.

 

[stupei]

There are multiple minority characters important to the plot in The Order and they'll definitely be even more prominent in the sequel.

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

 

[captainpat]

This is the wrong game to make this point.

Agreed only because people are missing the larger point and getting hung up on one error that doesn't even invalidate the point the person is trying to make.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

 

[jmood88]

You're original argument was how there were no minority main characters in the game. Posters correctly pointed out that this was incorrect and that one of the major characters was Indian.

That is incorrect. This is what I quoted in the first post:

Let's take a pretty obvious recent example: The Order: 1886. The game's characters are intended to be modern recreations of Arthurian Knights of the Round Table; the game's portal on Playstation.com describes it as taking place in a "painstakingly recreated Victorian-Era London."

While it's not illogical that a cast pulled from Victorian London would be all-white, it's also a disappointing choice, given two factors: one, London was one of the largest port cities of that era, with a multitude of citizens from all over the globe -- and two: even the original Arthurian source material featured a more diverse cast. Sir Morien is described as being dark-skinned: "He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven." Sir Palamedes and his two brothers, Safir and Segwarides, are three Knights of the Round historically described as being Saracens (Arabs).

Now, this is very clearly about the Knights.

Suddenly, you then shift to talking about them no being present in marketing material, despite the characters being spoilers.

No, I (stupidly) tried to humor people who hadn't read what I posted and discuss the problems with the marketing not including any non-white characters. At no point did I say that there were no non-white people in the game at all.

Look, I'm all for diversity in games, but your arguments aren't helping. In fact, people like the author (and possibly you) that don't even play the game yet rag about representation are the reason why some people don't take these types of criticisms seriously. If you want to talk about representation, then at the very least play through the game your about to critique, or at least watch a playthrough.

If you want to get upset about what I'm arguing, at least read what I've said first, then comment.

 

[nynt9]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

Except this is yet again untrue. The Knights are far from the heroic faces of justice. They are a corrupt order.

 

[Mael]

There's a funny case with more modern westerns being criticized of "affirmative action" for including black characters, when in fact that's more historically accurate and it's all the classic westerns from the 20th century being so whitewashed gave people a skewed perspective on the setting.

That's even more disappointing because it generally provides a more interesting take on stories.
I mean if women fought alongside men in Viking armies there's such a huge potential for a better story than if it was just another sausagefest.
In the same way including a character from south asia that somehow got lost there during an era he wasn't supposed to be there would prove more interesting and provide a different outlook than the stories you usually get.
I mean if you make something historical and all and it's some kind of Disney version of the era you're depicting, it's boring.

 

[AmuroChan]

Also, most of the knights have lived for hundreds of years, one of whom was alive during the time of King Arthur. I'm no historian, but what was the population demographic in London in say the 1500's?

 

[Uncle Rupee]

The point of the article, and my first post, is that people will constantly use the "historical accuracy" argument to justify the lack of non-whites in games.

Why aren't there non-Asian characters in Dynasty Warriors or Romance of the Three Kingdoms! China is a diverse region that did trade with all sorts of countries, yet you only see Chinese people! And why can't I play as a white guy in feudal Japan? There was trade with Dutch people, I should be able to play Samurai Warriors as a Dutchman! Stop using historical accuracy to justify the lack of whites in these games!

Off-topic but is NAOWS not sexist then? Something is not sexist towards woman just because it's made by a woman. Anyways seems like the Journslist was misinformed.

I didn't say Bayo wasn't sexist specifically because she was designed by a woman. The character designer has said that the character, in her view, is empowering. Who are you to say that Bayo is not a symbol of female empowerment? Aren't you slut-shaming Bayo, and isn't slut-shaming one of the worst things you can do? Bayo isn't sexualized (her weird gangly limbs are quite off-putting), she is sexually empowered, like a fashion designer's sketch of the female frame.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

This is what happens when people get overly-defensive about a game.

The point of the article, and my first post, is that people will constantly use the "historical accuracy" argument to justify the lack of non-whites in games. Prior to The Order coming out, there were a lot of people in here defending the lack of non-white characters in the world (as people keep saying, the two Indian characters who appear were not shown in any marketing materials) by making comments based not on historical fact but on a whitewashing of history that is present in popular culture. It's not a criticism that is limited to The Order but it is the most recent game in which this has come up, which is why it was mentioned.

The article was about the game, not the marketing. You brought up the marketing AFTER the article and your assumptions were corrected. And you continue to refuse to take anyone's word that the material revolving it is nearly if not entirely possible to market without it spoiling important points in the game.

And the only other way you've responded is saying that people are defensive in a fashion that insinuates that they are in the wrong?

As nint9 said, it's an important argument to be made. But you're going about it wrong. Maybe, at the very least, watch footage on Youtube. See what the White Chapel district's NPCs are handled in that manner. Is there diversity beyond sexes present? If so, is it accurate by that measure? Are there any other specific instances in the game where it didn't feel properly done?

You'll go a lot further there than attacking people who are pointing out bad information.

No one is trying to say that the game can't use more diversity, or that historical accuracy isn't often just a shallow representation through having accurate familiar structures and items. That point of the article, the overall one, is not being undermined by some rabid defense force.

It was just information being corrected, and that could have been left at that. You're the one who took it the extra step in then in wondering how none were shown in marketing and having trouble understanding, from not likely playing the game, why that representation wasn't as present in the marketing.

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm Turkish, and I'd never heard about this before. That's kind of funny, since your average Turk indeed has the same skin tone as the random white European person. Kind of weird that there was nobody on the team (iirc there was one or two Turks in ND team) that warned them about Turks' skin color. I assume that is the case because I cannot justify it being a design decision for whatever reason (I'm not offended or anything, though).

Well, I now wonder how UC2 portrays Turks.

The actual portrayals were ok, great Turkish dialogue. I think there were 3 Turkish voice actors, one of them had a terrible accent though so that was annoying. But the other 2 or at least 1 had a good accent and delivery.

But they do use the old "Midnight Express" stereotype of Turkish prisons. I didn't like that.

And of course the damn skin colours. We obviously have diverse skin colours (I myself am bronze/olive skinned), but I'd say at least half of the guards should have been the colour of Drake but none of them were. It irks me because it just reinforces the already prevalent Western stereotype that Turks are brown.

 

[SystemBug]

I'm Turkish, and I'd never heard about this before. That's kind of funny, since your average Turk indeed has the same skin tone as the random white European person. Kind of weird that there was nobody on the team (iirc there was one or two Turks in ND team) that warned them about Turks' skin color. I assume that is the case because I cannot justify it being a design decision for whatever reason (I'm not offended or anything, though).

Well, I now wonder how UC2 portrays Turks.

Kind of like how nobody told Zero Dark Thirty's production team that they don't speak Arabic in Pakistan

 

[Rentahamster]

Don't tell there weren't actually giant enemy crabs in historical Japan.

 

[Kinyou]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

But if that's an accurate depiction of the times, isn't that also good? Otherwise you run risk of giving the impression that racism and sexism isn't a problem during those times.
I mean, if minorities are completely ignored or purely painted as evil, I see the point. But when their struggles are actually shown it seems for the better of it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

Holy shit. This is objectively false. The Knights are portrayed as dicks throughout the entire game. Even when the rebels are portrayed as the enemy. Oh my lord. For the love of god, watch the cutscenes if you have to but please stop making shit up about the plot because you don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

[jmood88]

You're arguing about historical accuracy in a game with werewolves. They claimed London would look accurate and that the technology would be feasible for the time. I don't remember them claiming anything else but please feel free to prove otherwise.

At no point have I claimed that the game is historically accurate, I, and the author, we're talking about how historical accuracy has been used to justify whitewashing settings in games.

 

[nynt9]

Holy shit. This is objectively false. The Knights are portrayed as dicks throughout the entire game. Even when the rebels are portrayed as the enemy. Oh my lord.

I love it when people who clearly don't like a game and haven't played it or even looked into it more than a cursory amount try to come up with further reasons to paint it as bad or "problematic" so they can keep avoiding it and have an easy target to dump on.

 

[guggnichso]

Why would that be a spoiler? If people didn't know what rebels were, then an out of context shot of someone in the uniform wouldn't mean anything and if they did, then how would they know that the character was a major part of the plot from a single shot?

They would know a major plot point literally 10 minutes into the game when the rebels and their garb are introduced. For god's sake, can you people at least watch some sort of let's play or something before jumping to conclusions?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

Uh isn't part of the whole game

Spoiler

that they're not heroic and just and are actually corrupt? Hence why Gallahad rebels and joins the rebel forces?

 

[Fury451]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

The Order

Spoiler

are hardly "heroic". Who knows what kind of awful business they've been up to.

And would adding a member just to diversify it make sense? My impression is that The Order is an "old boys club", quite literally, with all the faults that a stuck in the past patriarchy provides.

Very little of how The Order is

Spoiler

painted in the scheme of he plot lends itself to them being he justifiable heroes, just the opposite is true. They are backwards, stuck in the old ways, corrupt and ignorant/blind to the workings of the world.

And Galahad shows this

Spoiler

when he leaves after seeing what they're capable of.

After meeting the rebel leader, a well-written and non-sexualized Indian warrior/leader, I realized that Galahad

Spoiler

was the villain.

He realized it too.

 

[joecanada]

Of course I haven't played it. I didn't realize the Order was a must play game. As a person of Indian descent, I still don't get to see my color represented in any type of marketing.

Consider it from my perspective.

So play the game and problems solved or even watch YouTube videos, but no you would rather keep shifting the goalposts to suit your ill prepared arguments

 

[akidnamededdy]

At no point have I claimed that the game is historically accurate, I, and the author, we're talking about how historical accuracy has been used to justify whitewashing settings in games.

So pick a game that actually does it as an example, then.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So pick a game that actually does it as an example, then.

Yeah, that's getting pretty embarrassing right now.

 

[Pezus]

Why can't anything have white main characters anymore without shoving in people with different skin along with them? Some games have, are, and will be doing that.

Using The Order as an example says it all though, they're not even all white...

 

[GobFather]

The article was about the game, not the marketing. You brought up the marketing AFTER the article and your assumptions were corrected. And you continue to refuse to take anyone's word that the material revolving it is nearly if not entirely possible to market without it spoiling important points in the game.

And the only other way you've responded is saying that people are defensive in a fashion that insinuates that they are in the wrong?

As nint9 said, it's an important argument to be made. But you're going about it wrong. Maybe, at the very least, watch footage on Youtube. See what the White Chapel district's NPCs are handled in that manner. Is there diversity beyond sexes present? If so, is it accurate by that measure? Are there any other specific instances in the game where it didn't feel properly done?

You'll go a lot further there than attacking people who are pointing out bad information.

agreed.

I love it when people who clearly don't like a game and haven't played it or even looked into it more than a cursory amount try to come up with further reasons to paint it as bad or "problematic" so they can keep avoiding it and have an easy target to dump on.

yep.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

I, and the author, we're talking about how historical accuracy has been used to justify whitewashing settings in games.

And yet you and the author conveniently ignore the "historical accuracy" argument when it is used in games set in China / Japan (Dynasty Warriors, Romance of the 3 kingdoms, Samurai Warriors, Sleeping Dogs, Yakuza, etc). So... I guess those games get a pass even though they are made by, and starring, the majority race of a foreign country that have minority populations in them that aren't being represented?

And what about the next wave of game developers that will come out of India or African countries? Are you going to complain if their games lack diverse casts as well?

 

[guggnichso]

At no point have I claimed that the game is historically accurate, I, and the author, we're talking about how historical accuracy has been used to justify whitewashing settings in games.

Well, you and the author certainly proved that it is important to have knowledge of the material you are using to prove your point, or else one makes an ass out of oneself.

There's lots of whitewashing in certain games, The Order however gives minority characters lots of screen time and important roles. Also women. Hell, it even passes the Bechdel test.

 

[nynt9]

So play the game and problems solved or even watch YouTube videos, but no you would rather keep shifting the goalposts to suit your ill prepared arguments

The argument in the OP is legitimate but there are better hills to die on than The Order. There are better written articles that cover this same subject without the factual inaccuracies.

This article is just a bad article. Making a good point on misinformation poisons the well.

 

[Mael]

Why can't anything have white main characters anymore without shoving in people with different skin along with them? Some games have, are, and will be doing that.

Using The Order as an example says it all though, they're not even all white...

Yes the problem is that there isn't enough all white men cast in games, exactly.

 

[prwxv3]

After all the "you can just watch it on youtube" criticisms the game has gotten I am finding it hilarious that some detractors wont even watch it on youtube before making their points.

 

[Crossing Eden]

So pick a game that actually does it as an example, then.

Or a developer. Did RaD actually say that the cat is white solely so that they could depict London accurately? Not to mention the fact that we barely actually saw any civilian npcs to begin with.

Why can't anything have white main characters anymore without shoving in people with different skin along with them? Some games have, are, and will be doing that.

Using The Order as an example says it all though, they're not even all white...

Because the world is full of a diverse amount of people. Although I do agree that setting should be taken into account. I never got the criticisms for Frozen because of it's setting.

 

[AmuroChan]

Lucan, the Knight Commander is half white, half black.

Spoiler

His Lycan form is Black. So he's actually half white anglo-saxon and half black Lycan.

 

[stupei]

Except this is yet again untrue. The Knights are far from the heroic faces of justice. They are a corrupt order.

Holy shit. This is objectively false. The Knights are portrayed as dicks throughout the entire game. Even when the rebels are portrayed as the enemy. Oh my lord.

It's not as if I don't understand the incredibly clever and subtle point the game is making, but you seem to mistake what I mean by "face" of justice. I did not say that they are actually just. I said that they represent justice. They are the people the city trust. They are accepted, they are trusted, they have faith placed in them. They are all universally white and almost exclusively male while the rebel leaders are female poc. It's a very clear "Us" vs "Them" only to pretend to have an ah-ha moment of, "No, it was really a different Us and you should be with Them and aren't we clever."

Again, I get the point. It's not particularly elusive.

I'm not even necessarily saying that I think this is the right game to pick this fight with, but it's very clearly a misunderstanding of the point of the article to keep pointing to the rebels who are people of color when the point being made is that the presumed heroes -- and yes, the faces on the ad campaign, the faces considered trustworthy and reliable for marketing dollars as well as Victorian steampunk denizens -- are all uniformly white.

I love it when people who clearly don't like a game and haven't played it or even looked into it more than a cursory amount try to come up with further reasons to paint it as bad or "problematic" so they can keep avoiding it and have an easy target to dump on.

Actually, I enjoyed the game enough to feel like we can have intelligent nuanced discussions about its creative choices, but I guess you're right. Let's get back to talking about its length and quick time events. That would be a much better conversation to have (again).

 

[TheSpoiler]

Here's why it's important to pick the right examples: you end up throwing shit at the wrong house.

In fact, it's such a wrong house that when the door swings open to see why a mob is outside of his door, you realize it's one of the very same people who marched with you before.

In essence, it starts in-fighting. Look at what's going on in this topic right now. You have a handful of people preforming mental gymnastics to make this work, outright denying reality and real, empirical evidence itself. Whether that's their personality or not isn't part of this discussion (I mean, it's part of the issue, but still).

The real point is somebody didn't play the game, posted about it, and started a wonderful shitstorm while games with actual problems sneak on by. Hell, it's difficult to discuss the topic at hand in general when the progenitor looks like they have no clue what they are talking about.

I agree with the main points, but it's imperative that people don't shit sling at the nearest most popular game. Then it becomes more about hits than journalism.

 

[SystemBug]

So play the game and problems solved or even watch YouTube videos, but no you would rather keep shifting the goalposts to suit your ill prepared arguments

Oh please, stop with this changing goal posts nonsense.

'Woman still get lower pay than men'

'We gave you the right to vote, now stop changing goal posts'

It literally adds nothing.

I guess brown people are only good for plot twists, but we can't actually represent them in any trailers or whatever.

Here's why it's important to pick the right examples: you end up throwing shit at the wrong house.

In fact, it's such a wrong house that when the door swings open to see why a mob is outside of his door, you realize it's one of the very same people who marched with you before.

In essence, it starts in-fighting. Look at what's going on in this topic right now. You have a handful of people preforming mental gymnastics to make this work, outright denying reality and real, empirical evidence itself. Whether that's their personality or not isn't part of this discussion (I mean, it's part of the issue, but still).

The real point is somebody didn't play the game, posted about it, and started a wonderful shitstorm while games with actual problems sneak on by. Hell, it's difficult to discuss the topic at hand in general when the progenitor looks like they have no clue what they are talking about.

I agree with the main points, but it's imperative that people don't shit sling at the nearest most popular game. Then it becomes more about hits than journalism.

Sure we can criticize Kingdom Come: Deliverance but the top guy developing the game is huge gamergate supporter. No way anything can be changed when he's at the help

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The argument in the OP is legitimate but there are better hills to die on than The Order. There are better written articles that cover this same subject without the factual inaccuracies.

This article is just a bad article. Making a good point on misinformation poisons the well.

It's an interesting discussion to have for sure, but this is a ridiculous way to try to have it. Definitely way better articles to start off a discussion. Absolutely agree with the bolded.

I guess brown people are only good for plot twists, but we can't actually represent them in any trailers or whatever.

Yeah, it's not like they're in the main focus of the entire second half of the game! Those stupid devs are just using brown people to for plot twists! Shame on them for not revealing spoilers in the marketing!

Spoiler

Lol what a load of shit.