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[Mass_Pincup]

I feel that the blame for that should be put on the people who make those posts than the actual developers of the game who aren't accountable for every post that their fans make on a forum.

I wasn't talking about the developers but about the poster.

 

[cakely]

Whenever I see "historically accurate" in the context of video games I immediately think "giant enemy crab". I can't help it.

 

[Fury451]

Again, the point is that, for one, this isn't true. Victorian London wasn't The Bronx but it also wasn't this lily-white world that people pretend it is because they don't know better. Secondly, in a world where werewolves exist, why is it a stretch to imagine that, even if that real world was somehow 100% white, that things would be different in the fictional world they've created? Why is it fine to add fictional monsters but changing the way races and ethnicities treat each other is verboten?

Look, I probably came across as harsh before, and I apologize. I disagree with you on several points here, but I appreciate your level and calm response.

Basically, I get what you're saying, but if they showed more minorities, they would've likely been in historically accurate roles- meaning unfavorable jobs and receiving poor treatment. And statistically, there would likely be the same ratio of white to minorities at this time also. This is part of the world they were going for- historical with fantasy- not historical fantasy and now everything is fine. Clearly the problems of man- corruption, betrayal, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. still exist in this world.

As for the werewolves, it's really apples to oranges. Just adding that really doesn't give any cause to presume that ethnicities are more accepting.

If we saw The Order: 1986, and the cast was pretty much the same, then you would for sure have a case. Here, there intent clearly wasn't to excluded minorities, as it was said, at least two feature prominently, but the nature of The Order being a bunch of old aristocrats out of touch with reality would probably mean that they're not too racially accepting either

But that's changes when Galahad realizes

Spoiler

he is the villain.

The Order again, did a lot wrong, but it's portrayal of diversity just isn't one of those things. It can only get better from here.

 

[tuxfool]

But The Witcher is pure fantasy in a way the Victorian London isn't. Surely in the pure fantasy game they would have more leeway to ignore existing demographics in favour of more diversity since that is what people want other games to do.

More importantly, whilst they don't have real world counterparts to colour, they tackle the issues of racial diversity and culture through the Dwarves and Elves. The dwarves and elves are very much looked down upon as lesser beings.

 

[jmood88]

See, that's what I wrote. The option to play as a black protagonist would certainly be really interesting, but it would require a lot of work. Would that interesting idea sell enough additional copies to offset the increased budget? I really don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it. And game development isn't a charity, so I see why developers don't go that extra mile.

They definitely could make an interesting story based on realistic reactions to a non-white character, or they could just include a non-white character with no justification, as is the case with the vast majority of white characters in games.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The point there is that The Witcher is organized around significantly sized cities. And when you gather a large number of people together in cities, seeing diversity in culture and race is pretty much a given, since cities tend to act as a magnet for all sorts of non-homogenous people to congregate.

The real world equivalency is "cities", not "Poland". Poland's demographics are meaningless because the game isn't set in Poland.

No the real world equivalent isn't cities. The real world equivalent would be cities that those cities in the fiction were directly inspired by. And in this case that means Medieval Northern Poland

To talk about demographics in The Witcher you have to read into the books and what those are based on. Sapkowski's novels are a fusion of Slavic folklore, Sapkowski's own imagination, and bits of Eastern European medieval history. You'd probably have to look at the Middle Ages demographics of places like Poland, Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, and so-on.

The way Columbia addresses racism wasn't very imaginative if you ask me, but it is there front-and-center. In Rapture it mostly came up in Bioshock 2 where I personally felt there was a lot of untapped potential.

Yea looking at all of those countries. The absolute majority of people there are white, in the modern day. Unless something in history changed and that those places were much more progressive back in the day then they are now, (they were not), then it most certainly makes sense. Now you could say "but there could be." But you would be targeting the wrong target.

 

[Oersted]

Example in the OP is bad, but yeah it is always:
"It is not historical correct", "it is escapism, it doesn't have to be historical accurate", "it sells", "it is creative freedom"... all "arguments" used in sake of status quo.

Whenever I see "historically accurate" in the context of video games I immediately think "giant enemy crab". I can't help it.

Lol, true.

 

[Kinyou]

The point there is that The Witcher is organized around significantly sized cities. And when you gather a large number of people together in cities, seeing diversity in culture and race is pretty much a given, since cities tend to act as a magnet for all sorts of non-homogenous people to congregate.

The real world equivalency is "cities", not "Poland". Poland's demographics are meaningless because the game isn't set in Poland.

The historical Poland is still a heavy influence on the entire setting of the game. I guess you can then look at what the demographics of historical Polish cities looked like and see if they were diverse or not.

 

[jmood88]

Edit: I don't feel like rehashing this nonsense anymore.

 

[Wulfram]

And what are you basing that on, exactly? Have you done much research on the era?

I haven't done a lot of research, but last time this argument was happening I did some googling and the consensus seemed to be 10,000-20,000 black people. Or 20-25,000 in 1900. Which wouldn't include other minorities of course, but London was around 4 million people in 1886, so 1 in 100 seemed a decent (high) estimate.

 

[User 73706]

Guys, fucking diversity shouldn't be a spoiler. Playing as the Arbiter is one thing, but a disembodied shot or two of a person of color - who, *gasp!* isn't a part of the organization led by biologically immortal white men - wouldn't hurt to alleviate half the concerns ITT.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Guys, fucking diversity shouldn't be a spoiler. Playing as the Arbiter is one thing, but a disembodied shot or two of a person of color - who, *gasp!* isn't a part of the organization led by biologically immortal white men - wouldn't hurt to alleviate half the concerns ITT.

Who said diversity should be a spoiler? It all depends on the characters role is. If they are the subject of something that would upset the expectations people are supposed to have going into the story, why throw that all away for some brownie points?

Focusing mostly on The Order here, im just not buying it...

Not trying to pass myself off as an expert on the history of London by any stretch, but the black population of London in the 1800's would have been rather small (probably numbering in the tens of thousands out of the millions of Londoners) to say the least, and also would have been mostly confined to the very poor areas around the docks and shipping business.

The idea that there wouldn't be black (or even minority) members of an organization that is a "modern" descendant of King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table is also not ridiculous. Knights have always been nobility, and frankly in the 1800's there were few blacks that would have met the criteria for knighthood in this type of organization.

a Knight at that time that WAS black would more than likely be of Moorish ancestry, and be some sort of transplant from Northern Africa or somewhere along those lines...but would certainly be the exception, rather than the rule.

im all for diversity in game characters, but i also believe that FORCING the issue, just for the sake of diversity does nothing more than highlight the issue, rather than do anything to fix the problem.

its a sad, but simple fact that if such an organization like the Knights of the Round Table existed in 1886 that the vast majority of the members would be from nobel, aristocratic white families. And if you were to pick any random "squad" or "team" of knights like the ones in The Order, the overwhelming odds are that said "squad" would be made up of all white men.

Its not a good thing, but is the honest truth...

Given we don't exactly know how The Order chooses its members (there were some issues it seemed in bring Lafayette in because he was famous, though The Order is for some reason a very public outfit), can't say for sure how diversity would work in 1886 among what seems to be somewhat well-off individuals.

However, I think there would be a sizable black population and a tremendous minority one at this time. It's the height of the industrial revolution in how they're portraying it, which means needs for workers and plenty of opportunities. That's going to bring in a lot of people from all over the world. Again, I didn't focus enough on NPCs to see how it was handled throughout the levels and such.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Guys, fucking diversity shouldn't be a spoiler. Playing as the Arbiter is one thing, but a disembodied shot or two of a person of color - who, *gasp!* isn't a part of the organization led by biologically immortal white men - wouldn't hurt to alleviate half the concerns ITT.

Yes it would, because it's part of the narrative.

It wouldn't hurt for people to do their own research, which is readily available by the way, without spoiling or hurting the story. That way, people who are looking for diversity aren't ruining the story of a game they want to play.

Edit: For the record, shes' shown in the promotional material. Her role, however, is what's important/different and not touched upon.

 

[sonicmj1]

To talk about demographics in The Witcher you have to read into the books and what those are based on. Sapkowski's novels are a fusion of Slavic folklore, Sapkowski's own imagination, and bits of Eastern European medieval history. You'd probably have to look at the Middle Ages demographics of places like Poland, Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, and so-on.

The way Columbia addresses racism wasn't very imaginative if you ask me, but it is there front-and-center. In Rapture it mostly came up in Bioshock 2 where I personally felt there was a lot of untapped potential.



But you also have to look at how the game says the original Order survived to the 19th century. They probably could have included an actual medieval Moor who survived to the 19th century through the same means. Not to mention the Saracen knights mentioned in the article. That by itself could have made for some interesting narrative points.

Thank you for being one of the few in the thread to actually understand what the article was talking about when bringing up The Order. It's crazy to see people in this thread talk about how impossible black or minority knights would be due to demographics, when they were part of the historical King Arthur legend, from a time when the demographics were even more impossible.

 

[Platy]

Unless you are talking about a game like Flight Simulator, "it is not realistic" is NOT a valid argument for the lack of minorities


"don't make any internal logic" I acept, not "realistic"

 

[Spring-Loaded]

See, that's what I wrote. The option to play as a black protagonist would certainly be really interesting, but it would require a lot of work. Would that interesting idea sell enough additional copies to offset the increased budget? I really don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it. And game development isn't a charity, so I see why developers don't go that extra mile.

The developers didn't say it would be more work than they were able to do at the time, but even if that was their reasoning: Why is this particular “mile” considered extra? Why is it charity (which sounds like "something not fundementally worth including, only if there's extra time/money" the way you've used it here) to include more options, or to even just reject the misconception that including/acknowledging diversity is just a bonus in games?

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Yes it would, because it's part of the narrative.

It wouldn't hurt for people to do their own research, which is readily available by the way, without spoiling or hurting the story. That way, people who are looking for diversity aren't ruining the story of a game they want to play.

Edit: For the record, shes' shown in the promotional material. Her role, however, is what's important/different and not touched upon.

Which promo material? Art work? She's in the launch trailer briefly, but the shot is so far back and she's facing away (closing a warehouse door) that you can't tell who it is. She could have been Lady Igraine for all most people knew.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Why must diversity "make sense" when so little in video games requires this? Even putting werewolves aside.

Regenerating health, reloading your gun after only firing one shot (without losing the rest of the clip), and arrows to point you toward your next objective seldom have an in world explanation. We accept these things, even though they are completely illogical, because they make the experience more enjoyable.

Is there a reason that diversity is held to a different standard by so many people, when it would make the experience more enjoyable for others? Is it simply a lack of personal investment?

There aren't actual arrows in the world, that's like saying that non-diagetic music is heard by film characters. Not to mention that the other things you noted, and I trust that you already know this already, aren't actually happening or are canon. For example, the character in the story never reloaded a gun without losing the rest of the clip, it never happened, and he also never got shot outside of story moments where we see him explicitly getting shot. Funnily enough, the order actually does have an explanation for regenerating health. What you are saying is why must a world make sense in the context of what it was inspired by and/or is based off of. And we both know the answer. A world where there are fantasy elements does not suddenly become the most progressive racially diverse world ever. For example, assassin's creed 2 is set in Italy, specifically Florence, Venice, and Tuscany, there are no African American major characters in AC2. That makes sense. Because that era Florence Venice etc was not racially diverse, the majority of people there were caucasian, it also makes sense that later in the series, say AC4, set in the Caribbean, has a much more racially diverse cast. Actually no, scratch that, let's say Revelations, Ezio is still in the game, but the cast and the world is much more diverse, because he's set in Constantinople, a much much more diverse culture than Florence Italy. The inclusion of fantastical elements like Assassins vs templars, or in the case of the order, lycans, does not mean that the world or location it's set in is suddenly much more progressive, diverse and respectful to minorities. I think the OP and the writer of the article are seriously underestimating the ridiculous amount of research that goes into creating a world. Even a world based off of what was or still is an actual location. Like Italy or London. That doesn't mean that the devs can't or shouldn't try to create a version of that world that actually is much more diverse and/or progressive, but it doesn't mean that they have to or have an obligation to do, especially when they're trying to be "historically accurate." Nor does it mean that the fact that they didn't means that they're racist, ignorant, or sexist, or uninformed about the time period they based their game off of.

 

[Tye The Czar]

One thing that should be considered though is that the creator of a work should be free to put whatever cast of characters they want.

Legally, they should. Government shouldn't be able to supress free speech. Influence from other non-government factors are a whole different story.

Freedom of Speech also does NOT mean Freedom from Criticism.

 

[jmood88]

There aren't actual arrows in the world, that's like saying that non-diagetic music is heard by film characters. Not to mention that the other things you noted, and I trust that you already know this already, aren't actually happening or are canon. For example, the character in the story never reloaded a gun without losing the rest of the clip, it never happened, and he also never got shot outside of story moments where we see him explicitly getting shot. Funnily enough, the order actually does have an explanation for regenerating health. What you are saying is why must a world make sense in the context of what it was inspired by and/or based off of. And we both know the answer. A world where there are fantasy elements does not suddenly become the most progressive racially diverse world ever. For example, assassin's creed 2 is set in Italy, specifically Florence, Venice, and Tuscany, there are no African American major characters in AC2. That makes sense. Because that era Florence Venice etc was not racially diverse, the majority of people there were caucasian, it also makes sense that later in the series, say AC4, set in the Carribean, has a much more racially diverse cast. Actually no, scratch that, let's say Revelations, Ezio is still in the game, but the cast and the world is much more diverse, because he's set in Constantinople, a much much more diverse culture than Florence Italy. The inclusion of fantastical elements like Assassins vs templars, or in the case of the order, lycans, does not mean that the world or location it's set in is suddenly much more progressive, diverse and respectful to minorities. I think the OP and the writer of the article are seriously underestimating the ridiculous amount of research that goes into creating a world. Even a world based off of what was or still is an actual location. Like Italy or London. That doesn't mean that the devs can't or shouldn't try to create a version of that world that actually is much more diverse and/or progressive, but it doesn't mean that they have to or have an obligation to do, especially when they're trying to be "historically accurate."

I'm not underestimating anything, I'm questioning why so many people who play games are willing to ignore blatant ahistorical aspects of games but when it comes to race, we all of a sudden have to make sure that everything is as realistic as possible (though, as the article points out, many people's ideas of what racial diversity existed is based on whitewashed pop culture that has no basis in reality).

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm not underestimating anything, I'm questioning why so many people who play games are willing to ignore blatant ahistorical aspects of games but when it comes to race, we all of a sudden have to make sure that everything is as realistic as possible (though, as the article points out, many people's ideas of what racial diversity existed is based on whitewashed pop culture that has no basis in reality).

But you're using games as examples where they actually were more historically accurate with a lot of research put into the time period. Just in the article,
-Witcher-very much based off of Northern Medieval Europe, specially Poland, addresses issues such as race.
-Rapture-set in a post rebellion version of a fictional underwater city where the creator only wants the best and brightest to join, addresses racial issues briefly
-Columbia-set in a pre and post fictional floating city, where racial issues are one of the forefronts of the narrative
-Steampunk Victorian London-set in the Noble, poor, and industrial parts of Victorian London, very little npcs are in the game, and there are minorities as well.

 

[Riposte]

"Historically accurate" is used fallaciously by both sides to get what they want. In most cases like the Order 1886, you could make a game without any black people and a game with a few black people, and both would be fairly accurate. And ultimately, it's rarely ever history (or realism) that is of utmost importance, it's the ideals created by them (and spread through other media). This argument is between a project to use videogames as a tool to achieve some effect vs. adhering to those ideals that inspire one's creativity; the idea of properly capturing history is just a blunt instrument to beat the other side with.

Also interesting that there are Indian characters in The Order 1886, I hadn't know. Also kind of funny that people are reluctantly appreciating this, given that indians have it demonstrably worse than black people (or other asians) in representation, despite their culture/mythology being a whole lot more prevalent (amongst Japanese games, granted).

 

[conman]

Just as history is written by the victors, so is "historical accuracy" measured by those in positions of social power. Claims to "accuracy" are almost always bogus and are often just plain inaccurate. Kudos to the writer of this article.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Whenever I see "historically accurate" in the context of video games I immediately think "giant enemy crab". I can't help it.

I know right? This ended up way less funny.

 

[jmood88]

But you're using games as examples where they actually were more historically accurate with a lot of research put into the time period.

Again, even if that was true (which it's not), why are you and others willing to overlook the fact that fictional creatures and magical things exist in these worlds but race is the one and only thing that has to be ultra-realistic?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Just as history is written by the victors, so is "historical accuracy" measured by those in positions of social power. Claims to "accuracy" are almost always bogus and are often just plain inaccurate. Kudos to the writer of this article.

I don't think that game developers have social power. Rockstar despite their ridiculously successful billion dollar franchise wouldn't be able to call any shouts politically.

Again, even if that was true (which it's not), why are you and others willing to overlook the fact that fictional creatures and magical things exist in these worlds but race is the one and only thing that has to be ultra-realistic?

Yea i'm not gonna let you sit here and tell me that RAD didn't put a shit ton of research into that era of London when it's extremely evident that the story, lore, and graphics, and game engine were what went into most of the development. Please provide proof that they didn't put a lot of research or thought into the time period, otherwise, you have no right to say that they did not. Meanwhile, we have the game, the artbook, etc, which are clearly compelling evidence to the fact that they did. The same could be applied to the Witcher as well, even more so considering that they actually live in Poland. Race is also not the only thing that's realistic in these games.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I would have thought Assassin's Creed would have been a more poignant example of messing up historical accuracy, but perhaps that depends on if we actually care about historical accuracy or are using that as a smokescreen for to complain about racial diversity in The Order, of all things.

I appreciate that the original myths are more diverse but they're also not set in 19th century imperialist England.

 

[jmood88]

I don't think that game developers have social power. Rockstar despite their ridiculously successful billion dollar franchise wouldn't be able to call any shouts politically.

You have a very limited view of what is and isn't power. Rockstar not being able to get a bill passed doesn't change the fact that millions of people play their games, which means that millions of people are digesting their worldview. This is how popular culture works and when certain people are constantly erased from popular culture, then they may as well not exist.

 

[funkypie]

And none of those small glimpses could've included characters that weren't white?

How many times are you going to repeat this? You have been total multiple times because of spoilers. Maybe you should play the game before you cry.

 

[jmood88]

I would have thought Assassin's Creed would have been a more poignant example of messing up historical accuracy, but perhaps that depends on if we actually care about historical accuracy or are using that as a smokescreen for to complain about racial diversity in The Order, of all things.

I appreciate that the original myths are more diverse but they're also not set in 19th century imperialist England.

Again, the point isn't that all games have to be historically accurate, it's that the argument that having minorities exist would be historically inaccurate isn't based on reality. The Assassin's Creed series is extremely inaccurate but Ubisoft has done a great job of presenting a diverse group of protoganists and other characters, especially compared to other series'.

 

[tuxfool]

Also interesting that there are Indian characters in The Order 1886, I hadn't know. Also kind of funny that people are reluctantly appreciating this, given that indians have it demonstrably worse than black people (or other asians) in representation, despite their culture/mythology being a whole lot more prevalent (amongst Japanese games, granted).

Don't worry the time will come when people realise that there is a lot of interesting lore to be mined from india.

 

[jmood88]

How many times are you going to repeat this? You have been total multiple times because of spoilers. Maybe you should play the game before you cry.

I believe that I said it twice but it doesn't matter because we moved past that a long time ago.

 

[Mr. X]

The only thing showing an Indian women would've spoiled was the way their "target demographic" thought about the game.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Don't worry the time will come when people realise that there is a lot of interesting lore to be mined from india.

Still hoping that Santa Monica considers making a new protagonist and going to India. It might not happen because of Kratos' status, but it would be neat.

 

[Deadbeat]

How many times are you going to repeat this? You have been total multiple times because of spoilers. Maybe you should play the game before you cry.

This thread reminds me of everyone getting all offended over Far Cry 4 and saying the main bad guy is white and (supposedly) gay and due to him being a bad guy it makes gay people look bad.

Turns out he wasnt white or gay. The people that cried and whined and touted their offendedness were wrong.

Here we are again.

 

[louiedog]

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, but there's a very interesting blog that collects images and information about just this sort of thing. They even linked to this gamasutra article today. It's called People of Color in European Art History.

link

 

[WordsintheWater]

The argument the author is making is sound, but the example she gives is terrible, therefore most people will pretty much disregard what she said because her argument is muddied.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I would have thought Assassin's Creed would have been a more poignant example of messing up historical accuracy, but perhaps that depends on if we actually care about historical accuracy or are using that as a smokescreen for to complain about racial diversity in The Order, of all things.

I appreciate that the original myths are more diverse but they're also not set in 19th century imperialist England.

Assassin's Creed is one of is not the most poignant examples of a dev being progressive and diverse despite the time periods that they set the games in. Realistically speaking the Ḥashshāshīn in the first game would not have been that progressive, they have female assassins and are fighting for the freedom of mankind despite the actual organization it's based off of. The protagonists are also way more progressive in every era. Ezio is very respectful to his female peers when the time calls for it despite being a womanizer. Edward is much more accepting of minorities than one would have been during that time, even briefly scolding his friends for not trusting Adewale. The French brotherhood has not only a black male but also a female as part of their council. The entire basis of the brotherhood is based off the idea that all are equal and deserve to be free, they oppose any kind of oppression, including slavery.

You have a very limited view of what is and isn't power. Rockstar not being able to get a bill passed doesn't change the fact that millions of people play their games, which means that millions of people are digesting their worldview. This is how popular culture works and when certain people are constantly erased from popular culture, then they may as well not exist.

Well in terms of GTA we aren't actually getting their world views, GTA is not meant to be taken at face value, it's a parody of america, where 99.9% of people are assholes, and we most certainly don't play as that small minority that isn't.

The only thing showing an Indian women would've spoiled was the way their "target demographic" thought about the game.

Sure if you ignore all the other things that people in this thread have mentioned would have been a spoiler that the viewing audience would've easily figured out.

 

[R0ckman]

Well, speaking as a black male, I'd say that the games would not sell if they were historically accurate. The people who have most of the money and the means of buying the games would not connect to the stories and the portrayals accurately. In Egypt for example, the black people there have a saying in their own tongue that the original Egyptians were black, but they also explain, that for the sake of tourism they have to make an inaccurate portrayal of the ancients. I believe it was Herodotus who revealed that at his time, there were many nations that had what is known today as black features, including the Egyptians and had a lot of trouble distinguishing between them, this means that not all blacks come from the same family or nation. But today the label African is really a distortion of actual nationalities.

Some ancient historians also reveal somethings that some universities are now just taking out of their works and omitting all together. I have also looked over several "updated" versions of ancient texts were they take out lines COMPLETELY. Where it's clear that there is no way they could have the ancient text and upon reevaluation, notice that the whole description was not there or was misinterpreted, as there was nothing in place of what was taken out which wasn't simply a word or phrase. As more people get access to books via internet and such that's when all of these "updated" versions come out of the woodworks.. Hmmm...

And based on my research, It's not a matter of accuracy, but a matter of telling the truth. It also disheartens me that historians or whoever decides what to publish as works or "updates" to ancient texts treat the masses as idiots. There have been many times even in encyclopedias where they will flat out lie, but the majority of people will not catch it because they haven't read the source of what they cite or where they got the information. Sometimes it will be a simple sentence thrown in a book, sometimes a whole fabricated story that just has been successfully passed down. More accurate portrayals of histories such as memoirs and the like, that don't fit the modern portrayal of history are usually left to rot in history and libraries, but are also free to read over online since they are not under any publication company anymore, as they are valueless.

There is a saying that "the devil is in the details". I have not taken this so seriously until I have done historical research. The major spokes persons of "history" use the titles and the levels of trust as traps and snares for people who are only trying to learn things.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Unless you are talking about a game like Flight Simulator, "it is not realistic" is NOT a valid argument for the lack of minorities


"don't make any internal logic" I acept, not "realistic"

Yeah, that's probably a better way to put it- it doesn't really make sense that adding a secret order of immortals fighting supernatural monsters with anachronistic technology to 1800s England would drastically change its level of ethnic diversity from how it really was in those days, so I think it's fair game to have The Order's version of England match how it actually was back then in that respect.

I mean, they certainly could have written in some backstory where it was like "oh yeah some other shit happened differently in this timeline and that's why there are more black people than there were in IRL 1800s England" and I wouldn't have faulted them for it, but I think there are more valid games to pick fights with as far as lack of diversity goes.

 

[funkypie]

I believe that I said it twice but it doesn't matter because we moved past that a long time ago.

Have you played the game? You have had plenty of opportunities to say if you had

This thread reminds me of everyone getting all offended over Far Cry 4 and saying the main bad guy is white and (supposedly) gay and due to him being a bad guy it makes gay people look bad.

Turns out he wasnt white or gay. The people that cried and whined and touted their offendedness were wrong.

Here we are again.

Yeah and the op was probably one of those getting it all wrong (like now).

 

[flatearthpandas]

Assassin's Creed is one of is not the most poignant examples of a dev being progressive and diverse despite the time periods that they set the games in. Realistically speaking the Ḥashshāshīn in the first game would not have been that progressive, they have female assassins and are fighting for the freedom of mankind despite the actual organization it's based off of. The protagonists are also way more progressive in every era. Ezio is very respectful to his female peers when the time calls for it despite being a womanizer. Edward is much more accepting of minorities than one would have been during that time, even briefly scolding his friends for not trusting Adewale. The French brotherhood has not only a black male but also a female as part of their council. The entire basis of the brotherhood is based off the idea that all are equal and deserve to be free, they oppose any kind of oppression, including slavery.

I appreciate the write up but would like to point out you're arguing a point i didn't make.

 

[jmood88]

Yeah, that's probably a better way to put it- it doesn't really make sense that adding a secret order of immortals fighting supernatural monsters with anachronistic technology to 1800s England would drastically change its level of ethnic diversity from how it really was in those days, so I think it's fair game to have The Order's version of England match how it actually was back then in that respect.

I mean, they certainly could have written in some backstory where it was like "oh yeah some other shit happened differently in this timeline and that's why there are more black people than there were in IRL 1800s England" and I wouldn't have faulted them for it, but I think there are more valid games to pick fights with as far as lack of diversity goes.

Why would they have to assume anything about the technology changing diversity? The world is entirely fictional, they can do whatever they want.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Which promo material? Art work? She's in the launch trailer briefly, but the shot is so far back and she's facing away (closing a warehouse door) that you can't tell who it is. She could have been Lady Igraine for all most people knew.

I recall seeing her in at trailer the first time you actually see her in a level playthrough.

At any rate, she wasn't prominently in that stuff, but she's in the game and she's important. I see what people want - notification that there's going to be this cool chick of a different race other than white existing in the game - but drawing attention to that is kind gimmicky (LOOK WE HAVE MORE THAN JUST WHITE PEOPLE LOOK LOOK) when it's an organic thing that matters more at the end of the day.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I appreciate the write up but would like to point out you're arguing a point i didn't make.

I know, i'm just saying, i've seen people on this very forum actually try to make that argument. Even with some saying that Connor was whitewashed and that he wears a hood so that the fanbase wouldn't know that he was Native American. Remember that we're talking about this guy.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Why would they have to assume anything about the technology changing diversity? The world is entirely fictional, they can do whatever they want.

This isn't true and it's entirely reductive. The world is a kind of alternate history or historical fantasy. It is grounded in something from real life.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Why would they have to assume anything about the technology changing diversity? The world is entirely fictional, they can do whatever they want.

Could've sworn this thread was about historical fiction and/or games based off of real life locations.

 

[bengraven]

I remember when some "fan" lashed out at Scott Lynch for having female, pregnant, black pirate captain in his Gentlemen Bastards series.

The person was like "in the age pirates, there were no black pirates and no female pirates" to which there of course were.

But Lynch's response was basically, "this isn't our world, this isn't any specific time, it's a world created by me so I'll do whatever the fuck I want and I want a pregnant black woman to be a pirate captain so fuck off".

 

[Crossing Eden]

I remember when some "fan" lashed out at Scott Lynch for having female, pregnant, black pirate captain in his Gentlemen Bastards series.

The person was like "in the age pirates, there were no black pirates and no female pirates" to which there of course were.

But Lynch's response was basically, "this isn't our world, this isn't any specific time, it's a world created by me so I'll do whatever the fuck I want and I want a pregnant black woman to be a pirate captain so fuck off".

That's literally a perfectly valid example then. Not the ones presented in the OP and article. Actually, no it isn't, misread it as though he had no black pirates or females.

 

[Fury451]

This isn't true and it's entirely reductive. The world is a kind of alternate history or historical fantasy. It is grounded in something from real life.

There is just a really bizarre fundamental disagreement about what you're saying, because somehow fantasy elements, werewolves, anachronistic tech, etc. means that there should be racial equality, despite it being anchored in a historical setting.

I attempted to make this point repeatedly, though not as eloquently as you have here, but there's a disconnect.