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[Crossing Eden]

My god. You'd think that one poor example wouldn't be enough to completely sideline a topic with this much weight. I guess one is all that it takes.

Three, I and others have already stated multiple reasons why Bioshock, Witcher, and yes the Order are bad examples.

They stated there would be no minorities or possibility of in Kingdom Come because of the era and setting, last I read about it. I really want to know how many examples we need in order to convince people there's a problem.

Well where does Kingdom Come actually take place? Also what should be taken into account is that there aren't a huge amount of games set in the past to begin with. Let alone historical fiction games set in areas like Victorian London OR Poland inspired areas like the witcher.

 

[mkenyon]

They stated there would be no minorities or possibility of in Kingdom Come because of the era and setting, last I read about it. I really want to know how many examples we need in order to convince people there's a problem.

Isn't Kingdom Come based in HRE Bohemia?

 

[Lime]

In most cases, the historical accuracy is just for the benefit of the environment work and little else, not some grand scheme of oppression.

You have to remember - this is pretty abstract and structural in the sense that no one intentionally commit to oppress anyone. Most people are good, well-meaning people. Unfortunately the way that our society, our ingrained beliefs and our normalized attitudes are structured mean that a larger, overall problem of oppression occurs. In this case we are dealing with white-washing and symbolic invisibility. And this is not because some people intentionally wants to have Whites-only video games, but because our attitudes and behaviors unwittingly contribute to a structurally oppressive system.

Articles like the one in the OP is trying to make visible and point out one of the usually hidden instances in which we are incorrect or wrong in talking about 'historical accuracy' as a way to have White people only in video games (or entertainment media in general).

 

[CLEEK]

How many people of color would seriously have been members of a group like The Order at that time in history? Honestly. They were a hair's breadth short of aristocracy. And racism was rampant.

From Wikipedia:

So, while London was a thriving port, part of the cargo was black slaves. Hardly who you'd expect to be a part of a semi-secret knighthood.

I find OP's take on Victorian England to be typical Americentrism.

Up until the late 20th century, England was defined by class segregation, with strict gender roles. The fact there were non-Anglo-Saxon people in London is moot when your cast are taken from the upper levels of society. In Victorian England, the elite, political/ruling class, police, military officers, judiciary and clergy would all be from the upper middle class or aristocracy. So Anglo-Saxon, well spoken and male.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Well where does Kingdom Come actually take place?

Isn't Kingdom Come based in HRE Bohemia?

In 15th century Bohemia. The game has a character creator and the player can't make a non-white protag.

The developers completely dismiss the possibility of including such customization without necessarily needing to in order to achieve what they say they're going for with their game (historical accuracy).

 

[mkenyon]

In 15th century Bohemia. The game has a character creator and the player can't make a non-white protag.

That makes plenty of sense. Outside of some various nomadic steppe people, that area was pretty damn white. Almost entirely Czech and Saxon.

 

[Mael]

Well where does Kingdom Come actually take place? Also what should be taken into account is that there aren't a huge amount of games set in the past to begin with. Let alone historical fiction games set in areas like Victorian London OR Poland inspired areas like the witcher.

It's really like talking to a brick wall.
Everyone agrees that the collective status is bad but each and every example you'll find justifications and squirming to point that it's totally ok.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

If a specific instance has to be that blatant for you to acknowledge it's problematic, you probably won't think there's an overarching problem. How many instances of this do you need to see to be convinced? How blatant does each need to be?

For every person who makes their mindset public, there are more who've don't make where it on their sleeve, yet still perpetuate that harmful mindset passively.



They stated there would be no minorities or possibility of in Kingdom Come because of the era and setting, last I read about it.

I don't need a number. I need the context to at least feel sound in even approaching an assumption. Once I start seeing things between the lines that suggest that the use of historical accuracy by those who worked on those games mentioned in the article and OP is towards that line of thinking, than I'll tackle it.

Right now, I think the historical accuracy is separate from it in most cases. Currently. That may or may not change. One disgusting individual isn't going to color everything else for me.

Now, I do believe that those who do design the game of course will be subject to their active or passive bias. For example, I brought up the brothel in The Order 1886. It should be a diverse establishment, but from what I recall everyone was caucasian. I don't think that was intentional white washing, but just people being ignorant when designing the NPCs.

That doesn't make it any less harmful, but I think the distinction should be made.

I've been accused of some harmless things here (being a Microsoft fanboy for instance), but I've seen threads where if someone even has a minor disagreement it means their a mysoginist/racist, even if they don't realize it! And...I don't feel comfortable with that black and white fashion of thinking. I believe even the most open people can, out of ignorance, commit an action that is in opposition to what they try to achieve or believe.

 

[Crossing Eden]

In 15th century Bohemia. The game has a character creator and the player can't make a non-white protag.

Well I suppose the second question would be, what was the diversity of Bohemia during that time period. If they're actually going for historical accuracy, was Bohemia actually a racially diverse place during that time period? As a person of color I certainly would find it out to be the only African American in a land, like in the Witcher, which is clearly based on Poland, not having racial diversity. What the creators of the games when this occurs are saying isn't that
-Everyone has to be white or the game won't sell
-People of color literally don't exist in any part of the world
etc etc
I would expect a modern day area to have a diverse cast if it was set in say Chicago or any other part of America.

It's really like talking to a brick wall.
Everyone agrees that the collective status is bad but each and every example you'll find justifications and squirming to point that it's totally ok.

I wouldn't agree that games set in/inspired by areas where vast and I mean vast the majority of people would not be of color is an actual valid example of white-washing. I remember when people were criticizing Frozen for the same thing despite the very small location that it's set in.

 

[Lime]

Well where does Kingdom Come actually take place? Also what should be taken into account is that there aren't a huge amount of games set in the past to begin with. Let alone historical fiction games set in areas like Victorian London OR Poland inspired areas like the witcher.

Isn't Kingdom Come based in HRE Bohemia?

please oh please don't do what I think you are going to do with those questions. Not in this thread - the very same thread dealing with the invalidity of the historical accuracy argument.

That makes plenty of sense. Outside of some various nomadic steppe people, that area was pretty damn white. Almost entirely Czech and Saxon.

Well I suppose the second question would be, what was the diversity of Bohemia during that time period. If they're actually going for historical accuracy, was Bohemia actually a racially diverse place during that time period? As a person of color I certainly would find it out to be the only African American in a land, like in the Witcher, which is clearly based on Poland, not having racial diversity. What the creators of the games when this occurs are saying isn't that
-Everyone has to be white or the game won't sell
-People of color literally don't exist in any part of the world
etc etc
I would expect a modern day area to have a diverse cast if it was set in say Chicago or any other part of America.

oh god

 

[D i Z]

Three, I and others have already stated multiple reasons why Bioshock, Witcher, and yes the Order are bad examples.
.

Yes, reasons Stated. But nothing definitively strong enough to shift the topic as hard as people are attempting. Nor strong enough to move the conversation forward. Just strong enough to grind it to a halt. The mental gymnastics to actually avoid an actual discussion are mind boggling to watch.

 

[Mael]

Well I suppose the second question would be, what was the diversity of Bohemia during that time period. If they're actually going for historical accuracy, was Bohemia actually a racially diverse place during that time period? As a person of color I certainly would find it out to be the only African American in a land, like in the Witcher, which is clearly based on Poland, not having racial diversity. What the creators of the games when this occurs are saying isn't that
-Everyone has to be white or the game won't sell
-People of color literally don't exist in any part of the world
etc etc
I would expect a modern day area to have a diverse cast if it was set in say Chicago or any other part of America.


I wouldn't agree that games set in/inspired by areas where vast and I mean vast the majority of people would not be of color is an actual valid example of white-washing. I remember when people were criticizing Frozen for the same thing despite the very small location that it's set in.

please oh please don't do what I think you are going to do with those questions.
oh god

Well looking at evidences, it seems that the people behind Kingdom Come are saying that black people didn't exist in Medieval Europe.
That's...rather concerning to say the least.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Yes, reasons Stated. But nothing definitively strong enough to shift the topic as hard as people are doing. Nor strong enough to move the conversation forward. Just strong enough to grind it to a halt. The mental gymnastics to actually avoid an actual discussion are mind boggling to watch.

Who is trying to shift the topic from the main point?

Again, wtf is with all the straw man accusations in this thread?

Article didn't support its examples well, so people are going to question it. Plenty of discussion is still going on in the thread about diversity, albeit not necessarily about the main cast in historically accurate titles. Most agree it's a problem, but would like to see the argument stand on more than just assumptions and unsupported name drops.

Then again, I realize I'm an outlier on places like GAF where I need more than words being thrown around to feel an article/argument is sound.

 

[mkenyon]

please oh please don't do what I think you are going to do with those questions. Not in this thread - the very same thread dealing with the invalidity of the historical accuracy argument.





oh god

That article is ludicrous. They point out a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny amount of stuff without much context and the conclusion is:

also manages to completely ignore the fact that non-Black people of color are well-documented as having a strong presence in medieval era Central Europe.

Keep in mind, that quote right there, takes you to the Wiki article on Southeastern Europe despite the fact that Bohemia is nowhere near that. Between Southeastern Europe and Bohemia, you have Austria and mountains, and then the huge plains of Poland. The Turks (and their very multiethnic empire) did not expand anywhere near Bohemia at that time. This is ludicrous.

 

[jpax]

oh god

Quoting tumblr is like quoting tales from your ass...

 

[Crossing Eden]

please oh please don't do what I think you are going to do with those questions. Not in this thread - the very same thread dealing with the invalidity of the historical accuracy argument. oh god

I'm just stating as an observer who's just finding out about the devs of KCD. Those questions aren't exactly invalid. If it's this huge open world game where you actually do visit different places I suppose it would be odd to not have at least one black person. However, I can't exactly fault the devs for having a customizable protagonist who can only be a white male when they have a set story. I remember that AC:Unity had to face the same criticism when it was revealed that it had character customization.

Yes, reasons Stated. But nothing definitively strong enough to shift the topic as hard as people are attempting. Nor strong enough to move the conversation forward. Just strong enough to grind it to a halt. The mental gymnastics to actually avoid an actual discussion are mind boggling to watch.

No actual reasons that haven't been refuted,

Well looking at evidences, it seems that the people behind Kingdom Come are saying that black people didn't exist in Medieval Europe.
That's...rather concerning to say the least.

The game doesn't seem to be set in all of Medieval Europe.

 

[A Link to the Past]

All of this talk of "The Order" instead of the main topic reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC2ZruUMefY

Whether or not the author was wrong about The Order - the fact that the only characters that can be marketed are white people is still a problem worth discussing - it's a really small part of the article.

I'm a Turk and I don't get to see my colour (well we're white I guess, but still) referenced in any type of marketing either. Well except Hakan, but he's more of a beast-type character and less of a normal representation.

How will Western/Japanese game developers make us all happy?

Okay, see, what you're doing right now is making an argument that does nothing more than try to "trap" the other poster. It's effectively, "I'd sooner have no one (except white people) be catered to if Turkish people aren't also addressed!" If video game companies are encouraged to diversify their cast of characters, every ethnicity would benefit. Some more than others, of course. Further, it is a bigger issue for black people than it is for Turkish people because in many cases, your colour IS represented in the game. Sure, Mario may not represent you because he's Italian, and Niko Bellic may not represent you because he's Russian, but there are many video game characters who have features that match Turkish people's.

 

[Lime]

The mental gymnastics to actually avoid an actual discussion are mind boggling to watch.

I've taken a guess as to why that happens.

All of this talk of "The Order" instead of the main topic reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC2ZruUMefY

Thank you for this :lol Community is hilarious (at times)

 

[D i Z]

Who is trying to shift the topic from the main point?

Again, wtf is with all the straw man accusations in this thread?

You can't be serious. It's been shown time and time again in this and related threads here that people of color existed throughout European history and mythology, during the harped on specific time period of these specific gaming titles, were not all slaves, contributed more etc...
Yet it's all ignored. The amount of misrepresentation that is happening in games, film, in forums in defense of a product and amongst people who obviously don't know their own history is staggering.

 

[CLEEK]

For example, I brought up the brothel in The Order 1886. It should be a diverse establishment, but from what I recall everyone was caucasian. I don't think that was intentional white washing, but just people being ignorant when designing the NPCs.

That doesn't make it any less harmful, but I think the distinction should be made.

What makes you say the bolded with such conviction? It's not based on historical evidence.

There is a famous case that highlighted that brothels in London were linked to the white slave trade. Young (white) girls being kidnapped and sold.

Plus you have other famous Victorian cases like Jack the Ripper. All of his victims were prostitutes, who were all poor white women.

 

[Crossing Eden]

All of this talk of "The Order" instead of the main topic reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC2ZruUMefY

Whether or not the author was wrong about The Order - the fact that the only characters that can be marketed are white people is still a problem worth discussing - it's a really small part of the article.



Okay, see, what you're doing right now is making an argument that does nothing more than try to "trap" the other poster. It's effectively, "I'd sooner have no one (except white people) be catered to if Turkish people aren't also addressed!" If video game companies are encouraged to diversify their cast of characters, every ethnicity would benefit. Some more than others, of course. Further, it is a bigger issue for black people than it is for Turkish people because in many cases, your colour IS represented in the game. Sure, Mario may not represent you because he's Italian, and Niko Bellic may not represent you because he's Russian, but there are many video game characters who have features that match Turkish people's.

What games have minorities but literally don't show them at all in any marketing whatsoever? In the case of the Order, and by god i'm the last person you'd see defending it, they didn't market that character or show her in any pre-release material not because of the fact that she isn't a minority. But because her role in the story is a huge spoiler that many players such as myself would be able to figure out if she was shown in pre-release material explicitly. Now that we have actual valid examples instead of bad ones you see the actual discussion occurring.

 

[SousedLouse]

I've taken a guess as to why that happens.

This is a thread made to facilitate a pat teaching moment, which starts with a single, sloppy example to work with and a couple of footnotes moored around the points the author wants to hit, and the discussion is mostly led by posters who are more interested in speaking truth to power than letting it die or building off of something else to hit the same talking points. While I'm astonished that it's gone as well as it has, saying that it's being railroaded for the sake of defensive projection is a stretch.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Yes, reasons Stated. But nothing definitively strong enough to shift the topic as hard as people are attempting. Nor strong enough to move the conversation forward. Just strong enough to grind it to a halt. The mental gymnastics to actually avoid an actual discussion are mind boggling to watch.

As the example of The Witcher, can you move the conversation forward then? What exactly is wrong with it ?

 

[A Link to the Past]

What games have minorities but literally don't show them at all in any marketing whatsoever? In the case of the Order, and by god i'm the last person you'd see defending it, they didn't market that character or show her in any pre-release material not because of the fact that she isn't a minority. But because her role in the story is a huge spoiler that many players such as myself would be able to figure out if she was shown in pre-release material explicitly.

Again though, it becomes a question of why the only significant characters in the story are ones that couldn't be shown, lest the story be spoiled. The criticism is that they shoehorned all of the noteworthy minorities into that "can't be marketed" role. It also creates the implication that the minority characters in this story are there to drive the plot and the protagonist if they can't be shown beyond their spoilage.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

You can't be serious. It's been shown time and time again in this and related threads here that people of color existed throughout European history and mythology, during the harped on specific time period of these specific gaming titles, were not all slaves, contributed more etc...
Yet it's all ignored. The amount of misrepresentation that is happening in games, film, in forums in defense of a product and amongst people who obviously don't know their own history is staggering.

Are you sure you're the one being serious?

Lime, me, Crossing Eden, mkenyon, Spring-Loaded, and others have been actively discussing such things. Some of them are posting more than others, and not all are agreeing or not all on the same level, but it's being discussed.

Unless everyone suddenly has to fall in line in a specific way in how they agree with diversity being an issue in these games. Which like I said, there's some extreme stances I'm not comfortable in taking at this stage that may change once there's more support for it. Lack of diversity a major issue in the medium, and should be taken into account when striving for historical accuracy, 100% behind. Accepting all examples at face value with no analysis and that all developers are using historical accuracy to oppress minority representation? Not so much.

 

[Lime]

That article is ludicrous. They point out a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny amount of stuff without much context and the conclusion is:



Keep in mind, that quote right there, takes you to the Wiki article on Southeastern Europe despite the fact that Bohemia is nowhere near that. Between Southeastern Europe and Bohemia, you have Austria and mountains, and then the huge plains of Poland. The Turks (and their very multiethnic empire) did not expand anywhere near Bohemia at that time. This is ludicrous.

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75048606179/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

Quoting tumblr is like quoting tales from your ass...

medievalpoc raises good points and does a more than decent job at uncovering people of color in medieval Europe. But whatever helps you discredit the research and knowledge being posteed, as well as evidence of the developer behind Kingdom Come being a huge, childish bigot.

 

[Angelus Errare]

How many people of color would seriously have been members of a group like The Order at that time in history? Honestly. They were a hair's breadth short of aristocracy. And racism was rampant.

There are 3 women in The Order, if we're being historically accurate...they shouldn't be there. At best they should have been scrubbing the floors and serving the meals. At worse they should have all been in the whore house or at home...cooking and scrubbing the floors.

Again if we're being historically accurate and all.

So, while London was a thriving port, part of the cargo was black slaves. Hardly who you'd expect to be a part of a semi-secret knighthood.

Spoiler

Using historical accuracy is the wrong way to go about making this argument. A better approach would be, "Well, there weren't Tesla Rifles in Victorian England, either, so the writers have already departed significantly from historical accuracy, therefore, they could have branched out in other areas, as well."

The Order takes places in 1886. slavery was abolished in UK in 1833.

 

[D i Z]

As the example of The Witcher, can you move the conversation forward then? What exactly is wrong with it ?

As that wasn't my example, but you seem to be really fixated on this game in particular, perhaps you'd like to give us a dissertation on representation for us all? Or perhaps you'll get it through your head that this isn't all about dissing your gaming fixation?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Quoting tumblr is like quoting tales from your ass...

If that's the extent of your argument, why are here?

I've taken a guess as to why that happens.



Thank you for this :lol Community is hilarious (at times)

Haha, I'm glad someone enjoyed the reference.

 

[mkenyon]

I'm going to go ahead and put myself out there on a limb and address the actual point of this discussion, with 100% honesty. Caveat emptor: I am a history nerd.

Changing the ethnic makeup of a game and drudging up the maybe .5% proof that people outside of white in a game like Kingdom Come feels a bit like a really gross version of affirmative action. That is to say, it is compromising the integrity and vision of the artist, as well as the possible immersion, for the sake of

Spoiler

very positive whose main goal is something I very much am in favor of

propaganda and/or inclusiveness.

The racism between Czechs and Germans was fierce back then, even being the tinder for the Hussite movement/war/reformation. The idea of a non-white being in a place of significance that people would treat normally in the HRE Kingdom of Bohemia in the 1400s sounds completely psychotic.

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75048606179/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a



medievalpoc raises good points and does a more than decent job at uncovering people of color in medieval Europe. But whatever helps you discredit the research and knowledge being posteed, as well as evidence of the developer behind Kingdom Come being a huge, childish bigot.

Yo.

You understand that the first picture that they have in there is of someone in the Roman Empire in the third century?

Saint Maurice (also Moritz, Morris, or Mauritius) was the leader of the legendary Roman Theban Legion in the 3rd century, and one of the favorite and most widely venerated saints of that group. He was the patron saint of several professions, locales, and kingdoms. He is also a highly revered saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox churches.

Like, I have no words.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm going to go ahead and put myself out there on a limb and address the actual point of this discussion, with 100% honesty. Caveat emptor: I am a history nerd.

Changing the ethnic makeup of a game and drudging up the maybe .5% proof that people outside of white in a game like Kingdom Come feels a bit like a really gross version of affirmative action. That is to say, it is compromising the integrity and vision of the artist, as well as the possible immersion, for the sake of

Spoiler

very positive whose main goal is something I very much am in favor of

propaganda and/or inclusiveness.

The racism between Czechs and Germans was fierce back then, even being the tinder for the Hussite movement/war/reformation. The idea of a non-white being in a place of significance that people would treat normally in the HRE Kingdom of Bohemia in the 1400s sounds completely psychotic.

There's something really gross about someone thinking it's gross to have more diversity in works of fiction that are already pretty historically inaccurate.

Also, this post does some serious ignoring of a point made: that vision seems to only matter when it comes to defending the fact that white people are over-represented compared to their representation in the US (video gaming's biggest market), while black and Native American people are under-represented. "Vision" is so rarely used that I would venture to say it's used mostly in these kinds of threads.

 

[Lime]

This is a thread made to facilitate a pat teaching moment, which starts with a single, sloppy example to work with, and the discussion is mostly led by posters who are more interested in speaking truth to power than letting it die or building off of something else to hit the same talking points. While I'm astonished that it's gone as well as it has, saying that it's being railroaded for the sake of defensive projection is a stretch.

The "single, sloppy example" is the end of the article, perhaps amounting to like 1/8 of the article and it's not even required to be a valid example for the general argument to hold. Which is the aim of the blog post in that this is a general topic or conversation about how everyone needs to bury the historical accuracy argument because it's so ridiculous.

We could be talking about that interesting Ophelia game that the developers are making, or the historical accuracy argument being relevant for history books but not fictional entertainment media. But instead many seem to want to use the muddied example of the Order as proof that we can just dismiss any worries about using the historical accuracy argument in the future.

 

[mkenyon]

There's something really gross about someone thinking it's gross to have more diversity in works of fiction that are already pretty historically inaccurate.

Also, this post does some serious ignoring of a point made: that vision seems to only matter when it comes to defending the fact that white people are over-represented compared to their representation in the US (video gaming's biggest market), while black and Native American people are under-represented. "Vision" is so rarely used that I would venture to say it's used mostly in these kinds of threads.

So because they aren't 100% accurate, might as well throw it all out for the sake of diversity?

I'm not sure I get your point.

 

[nynt9]

All of this talk of "The Order" instead of the main topic reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC2ZruUMefY

Whether or not the author was wrong about The Order - the fact that the only characters that can be marketed are white people is still a problem worth discussing - it's a really small part of the article.



Okay, see, what you're doing right now is making an argument that does nothing more than try to "trap" the other poster. It's effectively, "I'd sooner have no one (except white people) be catered to if Turkish people aren't also addressed!" If video game companies are encouraged to diversify their cast of characters, every ethnicity would benefit. Some more than others, of course. Further, it is a bigger issue for black people than it is for Turkish people because in many cases, your colour IS represented in the game. Sure, Mario may not represent you because he's Italian, and Niko Bellic may not represent you because he's Russian, but there are many video game characters who have features that match Turkish people's.

Turkish people are a diverse ethnicity. Modern Turkey citizens have mingled with Europe for centuries but the "pure" Turkic person looks like this:

So "Turkish people" can range anything from average looking white person to that.

 

[staticneuron]

Are you sure you're the one being serious?

Lime, me, Crossing Eden, mkenyon, Spring-Loaded, and others have been actively discussing such things. Some of them are posting more than others, and not all are agreeing or not all on the same level, but it's being discussed.

Unless everyone suddenly has to fall in line in a specific way in how they agree with diversity being an issue in these games. Which like I said, there's some extreme stances I'm not comfortable in taking at this stage that may change once there's more support for it. Lack of diversity a major issue in the medium, and should be taken into account when striving for historical accuracy, 100% behind. Accepting all examples at face value with no analysis and that all developers are using historical accuracy to oppress minority representation? No.

The way I feel about this is that, there doesn't need to be minorities as main characters for every period piece but devs including some in the game either in the background or as a character you can interact with would go along way of helping out the commonly held ignorance about the presence of people of color in certain regions through out history.

Maybe it would get some people who are just not aware to do some research.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

The "single, sloppy example" is the end of the article, perhaps amounting to like 1/8 of the article and it's not even required to be a valid example for the general argument to hold. Which is the aim of the blog post in that this is a general topic or conversation about how everyone needs to bury the historical accuracy argument because it's so ridiculous.

We could be talking about that interesting Ophelia game that the developers are making, or the historical accuracy argument being relevant for history books but not fictional entertainment media. But instead many seem to want to use the muddied example of the Order as proof that we can just dismiss any worries about using the historical accuracy argument in the future.

Straw man alert...c'mon Lime.

Can we all just stick to the actual arguments and points. At the very least if we're going to call out "factions"/beliefs, can we just quote them instead of doing things like the OP had done and applied one quote to an assumed number of people (aka people who don't agree with them) or make broad, sweeping statements that risk not applying to anyone.

 

[mkenyon]

Turkish people are a diverse ethnicity. Modern Turkey citizens have mingled with Europe for centuries but the "pure" Turkic person looks like this:

So "Turkish people" can range anything from average looking white person to that.

Yep. A (comparatively tolerant) and giant empire like this:

is bound to have good amount of diversity.

 

[Lime]

So because they aren't 100% accurate, might as well throw it all out for the sake of diversity?

I'm not sure I get your point.

The point is - so many other things in that particular videogame are historically flexible or loose - why would it break your sense of disbelief or relation to that historical setting because one character (or more) weren't White.

And furthermore, even if they wanted to be 100% historically accurate (completely unattainable obviously), there is evidence of people of color existing in that time period or from that area. Or hell, since it is historical fiction, it could be entirely possible that some person from another country or continent travelled to that place.

There are so many motivational reasons for why it's entirely acceptable for a video game taking place in a historical setting to include people of color. I don't see a need to fight against those reasons.

Straw man alert...c'mon Lime.

Can we all just stick to the actual arguments and points. At the very least if we're going to call out people, can we just quote them instead of doing things like the OP had done and applied one quote to an assumed number of people (aka people who don't agree with them).

I meant that this was the implication of trying to focus on one example, but I get your point.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So because they aren't 100% accurate, might as well throw it all out for the sake of diversity?

I'm not sure I get your point.

So you legitimately do not understand why "historically inaccurate" is a poor reason to keep POC out of historical games that more often than not are historically inaccurate. For instance, this game about hunting werewolves could suddenly be ruined if a black guy showed up and was on the cover.

Turkish people are a diverse ethnicity. Modern Turkey citizens have mingled with Europe for centuries but the "pure" Turkic person looks like this:

So "Turkish people" can range anything from average looking white person to that.

The user said he was a white Turk if I recall, which was the point of my post. He doesn't have to worry about finding a character that he can, visually, identify with.

 

[mkenyon]

Whoah, no, I'm not in here to defend any game outside of Kingdom Come.

The Order is a fantasy world, by all means.

The point is - so many other things in that particular videogame are historically flexible or loose - why would it break your sense of disbelief or relation to that historical setting because one character (or more) weren't White.

And furthermore, even if they wanted to be 100% historically accurate (completely unattainable obviously), there is evidence of people of color existing in that time period or from that area. Or hell, since it is historical fiction, it could be entirely possible that some person from another country or continent travelled to that place.

There are so many motivational reasons for why it's entirely acceptable for a video game taking place in a historical setting to include people of color. I don't see a need to fight against those reasons.

I'm going to use a kind of weird example here, but in Morrowind, if you were not a Dark Elf, everyone referred to you as an outlander. Dialogue trees were different, and people's reaction to you was different. That made sense.

In a similar light, a person of color in that period, in that specific area would be so strange and noteworthy, that it just doesn't make sense to have NPCs act normal around that character. Because they wouldn't. It would be strange and noteworthy.

If there were a game about.... oh I don't know, maybe set in the Songhai empire, I would not expect a white main character.

15th Century Bohemia =! Victorian London.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The "single, sloppy example" is the end of the article, perhaps amounting to like 1/8 of the article and it's not even required to be a valid example for the general argument to hold. Which is the aim of the blog post in that this is a general topic or conversation about how everyone needs to bury the historical accuracy argument because it's so ridiculous.

We could be talking about that interesting Ophelia game that the developers are making, or the historical accuracy argument being relevant for history books but not fictional entertainment media. But instead many seem to want to use the muddied example of the Order as proof that we can just dismiss any worries about using the historical accuracy argument in the future.

The other sloppy examples were Witcher series and Bioshock series, one of which does include minorities and specifically tackles race issues in it's third game. The other is set in part of the world inspired one of the least diverse places in the world even for today. Like say Game of Thrones, in Game of Thrones, you don't see a shitload of minorities in the Wall or in the North. Yet on the other hand, where Kaleesi is located, as in on the other side if the world basically, there are way more minorities. The article also states that Rapture and Columbia have real world counterparts, which simply isn't true. Not to mention that no, i'm not saying that we should keep dismissing the argument entirely, i did the exact opposite, and asked for examples. When you named KCD's devs which had some terrible PR mishaps.

Whoah, no, I'm not in here to defend any game outside of Kingdom Come.

The Order is a fantasy world, by all means.

The Order is set in Steampunk Victorian London. It's not a fantasy world as besides the technology being better and the creature issue, (despite them being ridiculously rare evidently), it's clearly London.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The other sloppy examples were Witcher series and Bioshock series, one of which does include minorities and specifically tackles race issues in it's third game. The other is set in part of the world inspired one of the least diverse places in the world even for today. Like say Game of Thrones, in Game of Thrones, you don't see a shitload of minorities in the Wall or in the North. Yet on the other hand, where Kaleesi is located, as in on the other side of the world basically, there are way more minorities. The article also states that Rapture and Columbia have real world counterparts, which simply isn't true.

I haven't played BI, but all I've heard from POC friends of mine is that BI does a terrible job as far as race goes.

 

[nynt9]

So you legitimately do not understand why "historically inaccurate" is a poor reason to keep POC out of historical games that more often than not are historically inaccurate. For instance, this game about hunting werewolves could suddenly be ruined if a black guy showed up and was on the cover.



The user said he was a white Turk if I recall, which was the point of my post. He doesn't have to worry about finding a character that he can, visually, identify with.

You generalized over Turkish people though, and the ethnicity I posted is pretty much not represented in any media at all (except historic Turkish/Mongolian/etc films) so my point was to not paint with broad strokes. If you're talking about the user, address the user (I'm also a white Turk).

 

[SousedLouse]

The "single, sloppy example" is the end of the article, perhaps amounting to like 1/8 of the article and it's not even required to be a valid example for the general argument to hold. Which is the aim of the blog post in that this is a general topic or conversation about everyone needs to take the historical accuracy argument out to the back and put a bullet in its head.

Damn it, I just put that shit in my last post. That's what I get for posting angry.
I think the validity of an example is important, especially for this topic. The defense of historical accuracy is tired, and it gets used all the time - why go with a sloppy example when there's a ton of better ones? I'm pretty sure the recency of The Order doesn't add much to the overall point, considering that it's not touched on much (although that spares everyone from something along the lines of "this shouldn't happen in 2015", so that's great). And why namedrop all the other crap, while focusing on how easy it is to fact check stuff like this? If fact checking is supposed to be the silver bullet for people who mewl over historical accuracy, why not prop that up instead? Instead, we're supposed to just work with these broad strokes that can be coated over anything? Or just roll with the premise we're given, whether it's true or not, just for the sake of downing the terrible argument? That's bullshit.

We could be talking about that interesting Ophelia game that the developers are making, or the historical accuracy argument being relevant for history books but not fictional entertainment media. But instead many seem to want to use the muddied example of the Order as proof that we can just dismiss any worries about using the historical accuracy argument in the future.

We could be talking about Ophelia if it wasn't just a jump-off for Chironis' "defiant artiste" shtick. And we could definitely put a fork in the history angle, if there were any deliberation as to how genuine these claims for historical accuracy are outside of "let me Google that for you", but I'm pretty sure this whole thing starts and ends with the idea that those claims are being used as an intellectual cudgel - not even that they're borne out of ignorance, we're just rolling with the easiest target to hit. We could do all sorts of things that were only vaguely touched on in the piece. But the supposed emotional cowards ITT honed in on the example, clear as day, and the supposed arbiters of diversity and common sense decided to split their time between posting long-form exasperated sighs, and drudging up old posts from more fleshed out topics. So, there's an understandable lack of variety ITT.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You generalized over Turkish people though, and the ethnicity I posted is pretty much not represented in any media at all (except historic Turkish/Mongolian/etc films) so my point was to not paint with broad strokes. If you're talking about the user, address the user (I'm also a white Turk).

I did, and I clarified. At this point you're making this an argument over clarity, which is a pointless argument. I am and was aware that Turkish people were diverse.

 

[mkenyon]

The other sloppy examples were Witcher series and Bioshock series, one of which does include minorities and specifically tackles race issues in it's third game. The other is set in part of the world inspired one of the least diverse places in the world even for today. Like say Game of Thrones, in Game of Thrones, you don't see a shitload of minorities in the Wall or in the North. Yet on the other hand, where Kaleesi is located, as in on the other side if the world basically, there are way more minorities. The article also states that Rapture and Columbia have real world counterparts, which simply isn't true. Not to mention that no, i'm not saying that we should keep dismissing the argument entirely, i did the exact opposite, and asked for examples. When you named KCD's devs which had some terrible PR mishaps.


The Order is set in Steampunk Victorian London. It's not a fantasy world as besides the technology being better and the creature issue, (despite them being ridiculously rare evidently), it's clearly London.

Ehrm, how is that not fantasy?

 

[prwxv3]

My god. You'd think that one poor example wouldn't be enough to completely sideline a topic with this much weight. I guess one is all that it takes.

That's why when you make a argument with examples you makes sure the examples match argument. Its not that hard.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

The other sloppy examples were Witcher series and Bioshock series, one of which does include minorities and specifically tackles race issues in it's third game. The other is set in part of the world inspired one of the least diverse places in the world even for today. Like say Game of Thrones, in Game of Thrones, you don't see a shitload of minorities in the Wall or in the North. Yet on the other hand, where Kaleesi is located, as in on the other side of the world basically, there are way more minorities. The article also states that Rapture and Columbia have real world counterparts, which simply isn't true.

Yet on the other hand, where Kaleesi is located, as in on the other side of the world basically,

where Kaleesi is located

Kaleesi

Articles point though is about 'historically accurate', which ASOIAF/GOT doesn't apply. And Rapture and Colombia do fit into real world periods and even places (Colombia at the world fair, real moments in history mentioned), though diversity is a separate element due to the context of the setting. Can't just say a time period diversity was so and that it'll work in the setting of the game. The location, politics, and such all factor in. Unfortunately, it isn't always handled well.

 

[CLEEK]

The user said he was a white Turk if I recall, which was the point of my post. He doesn't have to worry about finding a character that he can, visually, identify with.

Are you suggesting that all white people are the same? Do you think that I, as a white Anglo Saxon, identify with white Turks, or Southern Europeans, or North Africans, or Jews, or Slavs etc because we share a similar skin pigmentation? I can assure you that's not e case. Again, it seems to be based on Americentrism, where you have ethnic distinction based only on white and non-white.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I haven't played BI, but all I've heard from POC friends of mine is that BI does a terrible job as far as race goes.

I'm a POC. I have many POC people. The game portrays POC as both the rebels who're great compared to the majority of their oppressive leaders who treat them like monkeys to the point where a black person intelligent or involved with a caucasian man/woman is grounds for execution, but they also portray the opposite end of the spectrum where the rebels, as in the minorities actually won yet went too far with their revolution to the point of wanting to kill any person regardless of that person's views of what used to be the status quo.

Ehrm, how is that not fantasy?

It's what's referred to as historical fiction. Like I said earlier in the thread using AC as an example, the addition of assassins and templars into the world doesn't mean that they aren't trying to accurately portray the time period.

Articles point though is about 'historically accurate', which ASOIAF/GOT doesn't apply. And Rapture and Colombia do fit into real world periods and even places (Colombia at the world fair, real moments in history mentioned), though diversity is a separate element due to the context of the setting.

I just got into GOT a month ago. ._. And yes you're right that GOT doesn't apply here since it's not based on history in anyway. And Rapture and Columbia are very fictional, they may have some elements from real cities but I don't think the creators were inspired by any real world location as both cities are supposed to exist in the real world in secret but are completely fictional in literally every way. Hence why I wouldn't consider it to be historical fiction despite being set in old timey times.