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Fraternity chanting the n-word

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Crocodile said:
I'm just catching wind of this but this is honestly unbelievable. This is like blatant KKK level racism. Like I almost want to laugh about how absurd this is. I hope the books, the kitchen sink, everything is thrown at these motherfuckers. Maybe when they suffer and truly understand the consequences of their actions they might take the time for some self reflection and improve as human beings. I can guarantee you that babying them isn't going to do shit and would amount to nothing more than a tacit approval of such abhorrent behavior.
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I'm pretty shocked at how brazen this is as well. The thing that scares me is wondering how many people from this fraternity in OU have graduated with the same mentality of racism and are in corporate America working as managers, etc with the ability to hire and fire people.
 
Mammoth Jones said:
Please explain to me how we as a society will police feelings?
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It was to illuminate how you believe you can't change someone's "heart" while kicking them out thinking they'll learn something (or hide it).

The point is to make it so this behavior becomes much, much less common. You can't police feelings but you can help someone understand these are bad things to do. This does not happen over night or by simply giving someone the boot. People do not work that way.

Mammoth Jones said:
Or they'll simply pretend to learn whatever (from their perspective) "PC bullshit" we try to teach them, not get expelled and feel like they got over. Nope. They wanna go on a quest of spiritual discovery they'll have to choose to do that on their own. And if they get kicked out of school they will have free time to go do that.
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This is a very cynical view to hold when rehabilitation and education does wonders to change people's faults.

People rarely change on their own. We're constantly thrown external influences that help shape our decisions. It's not big surprise that a really effective way to help someone become a better person is to actively engage them.



Mammoth Jones said:
You act as if Im voting to execute them. Kicking them out IS helping them. It's teaching them a wonderful and profound lifelong lesson: Choices have consequences. Racism should NOT be tolerated in institutions of higher learning.

The problem in our society is coddling these motherfuckers instead of kicking them to the curb for people far more deserving of a chance to get educated.
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How is kicking them to the curb help? I can easily draw parallels to both NeoGAF and gaming at large: notice certain sites or groups that are so upset they've been banned they will rationalize and show their disgust for this site and viewers whenever they get the chance? Ever worked for a game company where you someone is banned and they send a ticket for assistance? People rarely get over it. In fact, it's not a stretch to say, they become more entrenched. This does nothing but make a miserable person even more miserable. At least we've cleansed the sacred university of this impurity; this strategy totally works in the long run.

The idea is to actively engage people to help them better understand their faults so they can accept and learn. It would be great if people would change simply by watching Bill Nye debate creationists or because they see an illuminating ad campaign, but that only goes so far. You still have to engage on a personal level. Seeing something once will rarely change someone's mind. You have to keep the dialogue going. This is why I dislike the phrase "it's 2015!" because it shows a misunderstanding of how we humans operate.

What do you think would help these students learn the error of their ways? Expulsion or suspension and then mandatory community service within minority areas, educational seminars that tie into their enrollment meaning if they don't participate they're then expelled?
 
Subpar Spatula said:
It was to illuminate how you believe you can't change someone's "heart" while kicking them out thinking they'll learn something (or hide it).

The point is to make it so this behavior becomes much, much less common. You can't police feelings but you can help someone understand these are bad things to do. This does not happen over night or by simply giving someone the boot. People do not work that way.


This is a very cynical view to hold when rehabilitation and education does wonders to change people's faults.

People rarely change on their own. We're constantly thrown external influences that help shape our decisions. It's not big surprise that a really effective way to help someone become a better person is to actively engage them.





How is kicking them to the curb help? I can easily draw parallels to both NeoGAF and gaming at large: notice certain sites or groups that are so upset they've been banned they will rationalize and show their disgust for this site and viewers whenever they get the chance? Ever worked for a game company where you someone is banned and they send a ticket for assistance? People rarely get over it. In fact, it's not a stretch to say, they become more entrenched. This does nothing but make a miserable person even more miserable. At least we've cleansed the sacred university of this impurity; this strategy totally works in the long run.

The idea is to actively engage people to help them better understand their faults so they can accept and learn. It would be great if people would change simply by watching Bill Nye debate creationists or because they see an illuminating ad campaign, but that only goes so far. You still have to engage on a personal level. Seeing something once will rarely change someone's mind. You have to keep the dialogue going. This is why I dislike the phrase "it's 2015!" because it shows a misunderstanding of how we humans operate.

What do you think would help these students learn the error of their ways? Expulsion or suspension and then mandatory community service within minority areas, educational seminars that tie into their enrollment meaning if they don't participate they're then expelled?
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Would you feel the same way if the chant was grossly homophobic or misogynistic
 
CassidyIzABeast said:
Everybody in the video needs to get that work. I want expulsions to rain down like the wrath of gawd.
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Only 1 or 2 people can be explicitly identified in this video.

I don't see it happening. They can't boot anyone without proof or they will have to deal with lawsuits. Anyone and everyone not fully pictured in the video will claim they were not present. Easy as pie. You guys hoping for mass expulsions are living in a fantasy. The frat getting shut down is all you'll get and you'll like it.
 
AShep said:
It's sad how slavish so many Americans are to a document written more than 200 years ago that you'll staunchly defend someone's right to shout "fuck niggers" from the rooftops free from any real consequence.
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But there are going to be real consequences.

I don't get what you think has changed in the last 200 years that makes free speech no longer relevant. Making certain ideas and views illegal to express simply because they're unpopular is a slippery slope. It's been tried many times, and it always ends up hurting the common people, and helping the ruling class.

Just around 60 years ago, there was a dedicated attempt in America to make it illegal to be a communist. Expressing communist views or ideas, even in your private life, could get you fired and blacklisted from your industry. Even the slightest implication of communist sympathies could suffice. Many people working in Hollywood had to go to Senate hearings to "prove" they weren't communist. False accusations were abundant.
 
Labor said:
Would you feel the same way if the chant was grossly homophobic or misogynistic
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Yes. I don't believe letting people figure it out themselves is the best course of action. If that was true recidivism rates in the USA and other areas where punishment is given and they're left to their own devices would be much lower. The reality is this doesn't work. Once we as a society accept that we can offer much better solutions that actually work. Until then? They'll learn on their own. And what will they learn? Not much.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Yes. I don't believe letting people figure it out themselves is the best course of action. If that was true recidivism rates in the USA and other areas where punishment is given and they're left to their own devices would be much lower. The reality is this doesn't work. Once we as a society accept that we can offer much better solutions that actually work. Until then? They'll learn on their own.
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Then do you also believe there should be no consequences for behavior recognized as undesirable by society?
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Yes. I don't believe letting people figure it out themselves is the best course of action. If that was true recidivism rates in the USA and other areas where punishment is given and they're left to their own devices would be much lower. The reality is this doesn't work. Once we as a society accept that we can offer much better solutions that actually work. Until then? They'll learn on their own. And what will they learn? Not much.
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I think they'll get the picture after everyone turns on them. If they were under the mistaken impression that the college and society as a whole tolerates blatant and flagrant racism. Shame and ostracism are great ways to regulate behavior in a social group.

However, I think the chapter itself should be allowed to make amends.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Yes. I don't believe letting people figure it out themselves is the best course of action. If that was true recidivism rates in the USA and other areas where punishment is given and they're left to their own devices would be much lower. The reality is this doesn't work. Once we as a society accept that we can offer much better solutions that actually work. Until then? They'll learn on their own. And what will they learn? Not much.
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It's not my job to teach racists. You also make the mistake of assuming they don't know no better and nerd guidance.

I say teach them the hard lesson.
 
Labor said:
Then do you also believe there should be no consequences for behavior recognized as undesirable by society?
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Give me an example? I don't see where this is going? If it is constitutional and not deemed illegal then of course it can be recognized as undesirable... but a crime, NO.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Only 1 or 2 people can be explicitly identified in this video.

I don't see it happening. They can't boot anyone without proof or they will have to deal with lawsuits. Anyone and everyone not fully pictured in the video will claim they were not present. Easy as pie. You guys hoping for mass expulsions are living in a fantasy. The frat getting shut down is all you'll get and you'll like it.
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But I want scorched earth though :/
 
Suburban_Nooblet said:
Give me an example? I don't see where this is going? If it is constitutional and not deemed illegal then of course it can be recognized as undesirable... but a crime, NO.
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He didn't write anything about it being a crime, he wrote consequences. He is talking about societal consequences not criminal.
Do you think there should be no societal consequences?
 
Enzom21 said:
He didn't write anything about it being a crime, he wrote consequences. He is talking about societal consequences not criminal.
Do you think there should be no societal consequences?
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Ahhhh, sorry I misunderstood. Of course societal consequences come with everything, all the way down to when you go to a party at someones house and ask "where is the recycling bin" and they point to the trash can.
 
The SAE logo outside their place was taken down. Anybody got photos?

Edit: Got it!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ersitys-sigma-alpha-epsilon-members-move-out/

plv8IZV.jpg
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imrs.php
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happy-dance-o.gif
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Depends on the consequence. Is suspension, community service, seminars, etc. not a consequence?
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Suspension yes, but you seem to be opposed to them losing anything as a result of their actions. Community service, seminars, etc. don't seem to do much for the kind of people who would gleefully sing a song about lynching. You just seem like another person who wants to protect people from any real consequences.

Suburban_Nooblet said:
Give me an example? I don't see where this is going? If it is constitutional and not deemed illegal then of course it can be recognized as undesirable... but a crime, NO.
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I never said anything about crime. I'm talking about people being shielded from the consequences of their actions under the premise of it not being good for their personal growth to receive any real consequences. Some people would rather have these kids do community service with black people so they can be educated by the people they shit on or be given sensitivity training that they will sleep or joke through anyway.
 
Labor said:
Suspension yes, but you seem to be opposed to them losing anything as a result of their actions. Community service, seminars, etc. don't seem to do much for the kind of people who would gleefully sing a song about lynching. You just seem like another person who wants to protect people from any real consequences.



I never said anything about crime. I'm talking about people being shielded from the consequences of their actions under the premise of it not being good for their personal growth to receive any real consequences. Some people would rather have these kids do community service with black people so they can be educated by the people they shit on or be given sensitivity training that they will sleep or joke through anyway.
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Understood, like I said I didn't get it at first. I agree with you, that sort of "rehabilitation" generally doesn't work. This isn't American History X in the laundry room of a prison.
 
TheSadRanger said:
I'm pretty shocked at how brazen this is as well. The thing that scares me is wondering how many people from this fraternity in OU have graduated with the same mentality of racism and are in corporate America working as managers, etc with the ability to hire and fire people.
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In many industries, almost everyone in charge are tied to racist networks like this frat. There's a reason our highest earners and most powerful people that aren't entertainers or athletes are a bunch of old white men.
 
Apparently there was once a black OU SAE member over 14 years ago. He was only the second black member ever. Here's some poignant quotes from him and the things that were are rolling around in his head after seeing the video.
There will never be another BLACK S-A-E…. I wish there had been one less. My former fraternity broke my heart today.
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I wanted to be the guy that shattered all those preconceived notions of BLACK MEN; those stereotypes of fear...
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I thought we were different. Maybe we weren’t. Maybe I was just being hopeful. But I believed. I believed in S-A-E. I believed in the True Gentlemen. I believed my brothers were my brothers. I believed my son should be their brother if he so chose one day. But then I saw that video. I saw that video speaking of lynching me instead of ever letting me sign. Of killing my 4 year legacy instead of ever letting him wear their letters. And then my son saw my face. My sweet innocent sympathetic son saw the pain and anger in my eyes and I had a decision to make: A decision White America will never understand. Do I teach my innocent 4 year old son about pure hatred today, or do I save that innocence one more day?
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http://betweenthenotes.me/2015/03/09/there-will-never-be-another-black-s-a-e/
 
SapientWolf said:
I think they'll get the picture after everyone turns on them. If they were under the mistaken impression that the college and society as a whole tolerates blatant and flagrant racism. Shame and ostracism are great ways to regulate behavior in a social group.

However, I think the chapter itself should be allowed to make amends.
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Do people get the picture after people turn on them? Shame only goes so far. We shame prisoners but does that help? You have to engage people and understand what they're going through even if they're a racist, murderer, homophobe, etc. Without understanding you can't make true change.

Mammoth Jones said:
It's not my job to teach racists. You also make the mistake of assuming they don't know no better and nerd guidance.

I say teach them the hard lesson.
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It isn't your job to teach racists, that's true; however, to exist in a society where you don't want this to occur every one has to lend a hand even if that person is the victim. It is a difficult thing to do (been there myself) but it is what needs to be done whether you dislike it or not. If you don't want to participate in meaningful help then don't suggest ideas on how to fix the issue. Instead, show your outrage and move on.

Labor said:
Suspension yes, but you seem to be opposed to them losing anything as a result of their actions. Community service, seminars, etc. don't seem to do much for the kind of people who would gleefully sing a song about lynching. You just seem like another person who wants to protect people from any real consequences.
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Why should they lose something? Does taking something away from someone permanently make them better? It improves the current situation IE they can't do anything bad. Does it fix the core issue?

Is it better to take something away from someone or to help them realize they should remove it themself?

You can have consequences to actions -- plenty of progressive countries do this and they also engage in helping these people. It all depends on what you consider a consequence, really.
 
I wonder how sobering it is for Wacka flacka to know the little shit heels who wanted to have him perform a private show were singing songs about black people swinging from trees.
Any rapper getting a business proposition from one of these frats should have this shit in the back of his mind.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Do people get the picture after people turn on them? Shame only goes so far. We shame prisoners but does that help? You have to engage people and understand what they're going through even if they're a racist, murderer, homophobe, etc. Without understanding you can't make true change.


It isn't your job to teach racists, that's true; however, to exist in a society where you don't want this to occur every one has to lend a hand even if that person is the victim. It is a difficult thing to do (been there myself) but it is what needs to be done whether you dislike it or not. If you don't want to participate in meaningful help then don't suggest ideas on how to fix the issue. Instead, show your outrage and move on.



Why should they lose something? Does taking something away from someone permanently make them better? It improves the current situation IE they can't do anything bad. Does it fix the core issue?

Is it better to take something away from someone or to help them realize they should remove it themself?

You can have consequences to actions -- plenty of progressive countries do this and they also engage in helping these people. It all depends on what you consider a consequence, really.
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Kicking them out of school is helping them. It's called tough love but sometimes we as a civilized society have to tell people to go home and think about what they've done.

And you continue to ignore the issue of sending the message to OTHERS that this behavior will NOT be tolerated.

Why you seem so opposed to this is beyond me. It's not about "expressing outrage". It's about proving we won't stand for this shit. It'd about them having to face a real repercussion for their choice. Stop mollycoddling these grown as men and insist everyone else need be flexible around their needs.

Stop acting like affluenza is a learning disability that we need to take into account.
 
theignoramus said:
I wonder how sobering it is for Wacka flacka to know the little shit heels who wanted to have him perform a private show were singing songs about black people swinging from trees.
Any rapper getting a business proposition from one of these frats should have this shit in the back of his mind.
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"oh you wan see what I do?" WILDBOY!

tumblr_mlfbxrDJOh1r9p21to1_500.gif
 
Why does any issue of speech rapidly go to "But-but-but slippery slope then we couldn't criticize the government" ?
We're doing pretty fine in that realm in Europe. Properly categorized laws are not a slippery slope - Making laws against that type of thing would be pretty easy.
 
The downside of expulsion is that it gives the students a clean slate somewhere else.

What's the story of the person who took and presumably uploaded the video? Is he a "whistleblower" or as culpable as the rest? Was it leaked to boast or shame?
 
Labor said:
All I'm getting is that you want these kids to be able to go about their usual business of singing about lynchings untroubled.
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If that is all you got out of my comments then you either did not read them or you're choosing to ignore it.

Mammoth Jones said:
Kicking them out of school is helping them. It's called tough love but sometimes we as a civilized society have to tell people to go home and think about what they've done.

And you continue to ignore the issue of sending the message to OTHERS that this behavior will NOT be tolerated.

Why you seem so opposed to this is beyond me. It's not about "expressing outrage". It's about proving we won't stand for this shit. It'd about them having to face a real repercussion for their choice. Stop mollycoddling these grown as men and insist everyone else need be flexible around their needs.

Stop acting like affluenza is a learning disability that we need to take into account.
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I never said to ignore the issue. In fact I'm championing the idea people with this attitudes, behaviors, etc. are challenged personally or more often to change this behavior. This is done through discussion with said person, work with minorities, lessons, etc. These are effective. Letting them sulk in the proverbial cold does nothing. Data shows it does nothing. The best way to help people improve is to actually help them through their problems. Fending for yourself is such an odd way to treat this issue.

I'm opposed to it because it's been proven that the best way to rehabilitate and get people to act and think better is to actively engage them.

What do you do when people who you tell to go home and think about it come back even crueler? Do you tell them to go and think about it some more? What? Your choice doesn't solve anything, it just perpetuates a cycle by, really, sweeping it under the rug. Bad apple? Toss it out.

Real repercussions? Define this please. Not just what you think the actions should be but how they actually change the person.

Never said anything about affluenza. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm simply advocating helping people that do harm so they can learn to not do harm anymore. Is that a bad solution? If so detail why. Don't just say that's not a real consequence, detail why that isn't and how helping them not think that way is bad. Or how your way of letting them figure it out is better than assistance from people who can help them with their hate.

Then again, I'm totally suggesting they should be coddled and have free reign.
 
adamsappel said:
The downside of expulsion is that it gives the students a clean slate somewhere else.

What's the story of the person who took and presumably uploaded the video? Is he a "whistleblower" or as culpable as the rest? Was it leaked to boast or shame?
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If the reddit linked earlier is to be believed, it was taken by one of the dates and then sent to a Sigma Chi who then passed it on to the black student organization that posted it.
 
Labor said:
Do you honestly think any of your soft solutions will have an effect on these people?
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The hard solution won't do anything either why not try an approach that works with other crimes. Constantly punishing a child does nothing but cause more angry and hatred. Teaching why they are wrong and punishing then in a why that forces them to see a new perspective is better. However punishment feels better to the victim so I understand why many just want to see them suffer.
 
Surprised they can just kick them off campus that fast. I can see them having their charter suspended, and the school expelling the frat, but I am surprised they can kick them out of the house in 48 hours. Doesn't it operate like a rental property where you have to give some type of reasonable notice of eviction? Not defending the people in the video, but I can't imagine that's the attitude of everyone in the Frat, some of whom might not even have been there, and now they are being kicked out of their home with the University telling them they won't help them find new housing.
 
Wereroku said:
The hard solution won't do anything either why not try an approach that works with other crimes. Constantly punishing a child does nothing but cause more angry and hatred. Teaching why they are wrong and punishing then in a why that forces them to see a new perspective is better. However punishment feels better to the victim so I understand why many just want to see them suffer.
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College students aren't children. They've had time to learn better.

Bigotry's not illegal so I guess that's why so many people feel the need to coddle bigots
 
Wereroku said:
The hard solution won't do anything either why not try an approach that works with other crimes. Constantly punishing a child does nothing but cause more angry and hatred. Teaching why they are wrong and punishing then in a why that forces them to see a new perspective is better. However punishment feels better to the victim so I understand why many just want to see them suffer.
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they're not fucking children lmao
 
Sai-kun said:
they're not fucking children lmao
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I wasn't saying they were. The behavior is the same for adults we just hide it better. Constant punishment well only lead to more hatred. Trying to teach them what they did as wrong and trying to fix them is the better solution. Just destroying them leads to a lifelong bigot that could become even more dangerous. Don't coddle then they deserve punishment bit at least try to redeem them. But fuck it what do I know.
 
Enron said:
I disagree - I think stuff like this is small potatoes compared to actual hate and discrimination.

I don't think i'm willing to stick a "do not admit this guy to your school" on someone's record because they laughed at a racist chant or joke when they were 19.
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Pretty dumb as fuck 19 year olds there. Especially participating in a fucking "I hate niggers" chant. Jesus christ.
 
Labor said:
College students aren't children. They've had time to learn better.

Bigotry's not illegal so I guess that's why so many people feel the need to coddle bigots
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Your solution is to throw them in jail? We have enough criminalization in America as is, if anything we need to decriminalize much more. Making such behavior illegal will not change their minds on it, if anything it will entrench their ideas. The reactions online and from the rest of society are enough to force them to look at their behavior and if they don't change their minds expelling them or bringing the law down on them isn't going to change that.
 
Wereroku said:
I wasn't saying they were. The behavior is the same for adults we just hide it better. Constant punishment well only lead to more hatred. Trying to teach them what they did as wrong and trying to fix them is the better solution. Just destroying them leads to a lifelong bigot that could become even more dangerous. Don't coddle then they deserve punishment bit at least try to redeem them. But fuck it what do I know.
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This is not about teaching these adults a lesson or trying to make them better people. These adults sung a song about lynching black people and how they weren't welcome in their group.

A university should have an atmosphere were all people are comfortable in the environment. How do you think someone would feel if their school just said "let's try redeeming them, they're not so bad" and closed the case?

I'm workplaces racism and other hurtful things are not tolerated because of the effect it has on the environment that their employees are in. It is not punishment for breaking taboos.
 
On the topic of free speech, it should never be trampled on. Bigots can be bigots as long as they don't threaten life. But we as private citizens are also free to demonize these people, and use our freedom of expression to make their lives hard. I like that balance. Don't need it to be illegal, we as a society will destroy you ourselves.
 
BravesCountry said:
Your solution is to throw them in jail? We have enough criminalization in America as is, if anything we need to decriminalize much more. Making such behavior illegal will not change their minds on it, if anything it will entrench their ideas. The reactions online and from the rest of society are enough to force them to look at their behavior and if they don't change their minds expelling them or bringing the law down on them isn't going to change that.
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At no point did I say jail them

The implication is that because it's wrong only on a moral scale, it makes it easier for people to defend bigotry if they want to

I'm resigned to the idea that no matter what consequences may befall someone expressing racist views or committing racist acts, there will always be people who say they should be educated by those they hate and massaged into some position of enlightenment.

Great
 
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