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[Takuan]

Expulsion inc; heck, if I were one of those students, I wouldn't want to be seen around campus anyway.

fraternities are kind of sad

I dunno about that. Drugs, booze, sex, and a social network that's relevant after graduation sounds like a pretty happy thing overall.

 

[Htown]

This thread is teaching me so much.

I never knew that the way to discourage a person's behavior was to insulate the person from consequences for it.

 

[boiled goose]

Free speech does not protect you from getting expelled. Only from government prosecution.

 

[sir_kevith]

If they can't expel them due to free speech then the student body should direct hateful free speech at them and make the rest of their lives at the university miserable. It's only fair.

I can't believe people don't qualify that as actual hate. Can you imagine being black and spending your money and time to study in that environment? Some old made up fraternity tradition doesn't excuse racism.

 

[JustenP88]

Expulsion for all identified participants in the video seems like a no-brainer to me. The rest of the SAE members can find somewhere else to live. I wouldn't feel totally comfortable with expelling them merely from association, but I sincerely doubt any members who weren't there would be genuinely surprised by this behavior.

 

[GungHo]

This thread is teaching me so much.

I never knew that the way to discourage a person's behavior was to insulate the person from consequences for it.

My father generally went with ass beatings and manual labor, in no particular order. Manual labor was far more effective.

 

[Delta Assault]

Free speech does not protect you from getting expelled. Only from government prosecution.

Well, it's a public school. Public institutions are seen as an extended form of the government.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

It is the kneejerk reaction. It will show actions like these will have consequences but you can't change someone's heart? You're content with people going around, who you feel can't change, who harbor these ill feelings towards others?

Please explain to me how we as a society will police feelings?

Tossing someone aside instead of teaching will only cause more misery. You think they will learn their lesson? No. They will most likely rationalize their behavior and it will become a "us vs them" scenario.

Or they'll simply pretend to learn whatever (from their perspective) "PC bullshit" we try to teach them, not get expelled and feel like they got over. Nope. They wanna go on a quest of spiritual discovery they'll have to choose to do that on their own. And if they get kicked out of school they will have free time to go do that.

I can understand expelling and hate the fact that if you're a victim you shouldn't have to be the ones to help change these people. I can truly understand that feeling. The problem is as a society if you want to grow you have to accept people can do harm, we also have to accept the best way to better people is by helping them. Discarding them doesn't help anyone except sate the proverbial bloodlust. Even then it's not a solution, it just's a bandaid.

.

You act as if Im voting to execute them. Kicking them out IS helping them. It's teaching them a wonderful and profound lifelong lesson: Choices have consequences. Racism should NOT be tolerated in institutions of higher learning.

The problem in our society is coddling these motherfuckers instead of kicking them to the curb for people far more deserving of a chance to get educated.

 

[boiled goose]

Well, it's a public school. Public institutions are seen as an extended form of the government.

Irrelevant. Getting fired/expelled is not the same thing as legal prosecution.

People have trouble understanding the First amendment. It means speech can't be legally banned. It doesn't mean no consequences.

All schools have codes of conduct. Same with public jobs. You can't say whatever shit you want when you are part of a community.

 

[JDSN]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for grown ass men that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants.

But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Irrelevant. Getting fired/expelled is not the same thing as legal prosecution.

People have trouble understanding the First amendment.

All schools have codes of conduct. Same with public jobs. You can't say whatever shit you want when you are part of a community.

Case law doesn't support this when it comes to the first amendment and state universities. Public universities have to tread carefully or they can and very will might be sued. And they have lost plenty of times over things like this.

 

[jerry1594]

They absolutely should be expelled and aren't kids. Don't be daft.

 

[bishoptl]

19-20 year olds referred to as kids.
Pre-teens and mid-teens referred to as men.

#guesstherace

I'm looking forward to getting the names of these assholes out there. They can show some pride in who they are and what they've done.

They wanna go on a quest of spiritual discovery they'll have to choose to do that on their own. And if they get kicked out of school they will have free time to go do that.

The problem in our society is coddling these motherfuckers instead of kicking them to the curb for people far more deserving of a chance to get educated.

boom

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

The Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity shall not discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed, national origin, ancestry, sexual orientation, age or physical or mental disability, religion, marital status, military status, order of protection status and unfavorable military discharge.

Why even list all that stuff? Isn't "Don't dicriminate" enough?
Are they allowed to discriminate on the basis of financial status? I mean, its doesn't say explicitly that they aren't.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I wish I was white. Mofos get barrier, shield, and other kinds of protection cast on them by random strangers ontop of the +25 to all stats, higher epic loot drops and lower random encounter rate.

You act as if Im voting to execute them. Kicking them out IS helping them. It's teaching them a wonderful and profound lifelong lesson: Choices have consequences. Racism should NOT be tolerated in institutions of higher learning.

The problem in our society is coddling these motherfuckers instead of kicking them to the curb for people far more deserving of a chance to get educated.

Word.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for grown ass men that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants.

But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

This is really how I feel. Like, come the fuck on. Do shit like this and the responsibility is on ME to teach these mofo's how to NOT be racist douches?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for people that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants. But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

It has nothing to do with empathy. Although I'm not fully sure who you're referring to.

I'm black. This is disgusting. I wish they all leave and I'm glad they got nuked by the national organization and lost their house.

But the law is pretty clear. And their first amendment rights will prevail in all likelihood.

 

[Yaboosh]

Why even list all that stuff? Isn't "Don't dicriminate" enough?
Are they allowed to discriminate on the basis of financial status? I mean, its doesn't say explicitly that they aren't.

Yes, of course they are. Why wouldn't they be? They have dues after all.

They can also discriminate based on how attractive you are, how popular you are, your personality, and any other factor not listed there.

 

[WrenchNinja]

AP article with more statements from the uni president and students.

"I'd be glad if they left. I might even pay the bus fare for them." - David Boren

Coming with the already posted news that they may have destroyed a prized football recruit's interest it's safe to say the members are up shit creek.

This spokesperson is hilariously bad. I love how the interviewer brings up past cases and the guy just starts spinning.

 

[Stet]

Except that it does. Can you (or him) explain how it wouldn't?

They haven't been arrested or charged with any crime?

 

[JDSN]

Why even list all that stuff? Isn't "Don't dicriminate" enough?
Are they allowed to discriminate on the basis of financial status? I mean, its doesn't say explicitly that they aren't.

Because statements like "Dont discriminate" or be nice or neogaf's favorite "Dont be a dick" are incredibly vague and serve to perpetuate ignorance towards certains types of discrimination that might be considered as "lesser" depending of the bias that people have
Making a clear list of what is wrong helps the people that are ignorant by mistake not to be and it hurts those that are ignorant by design.

 

[BigDes]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for grown ass men that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants.

But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

Pretty much.

Rather depressing, really.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Why even list all that stuff? Isn't "Don't dicriminate" enough?
Are they allowed to discriminate on the basis of financial status? I mean, its doesn't say explicitly that they aren't.

Probably just following precedent you see in state and federal protected class laws. They will list out the protected classes covered under the law.

 

[Delta Assault]

Well, this is cool.

http://kfor.com/2015/03/09/ou-alumnus-creates-fundraiser-to-help-cook-after-closure-of-fraternity/

In the wake of a racist chant that went viral, OU President David Boren has closed the SAE fraternity house and told members to find a new home.

An alumnus, Blake Burkhart, immediately thought of Howard.

Howard is the fraternity’s cook, who has been working at the university for more than a decade.

“Through some cruel twist of fate, he has to lose the job that he has held for over a decade. He is going to lose his job because of a bus full of racist kids,” Burkhart wrote in an Indiegogo post.

Burkhart says he created the fundraising page to make sure Howard lands on his feet.

So far, the page has already raised almost $10,000 in less than 24 hours.

 

[soundahfekz]

This is really how I feel. Like, come the fuck on. Do shit like this and the responsibility is on ME to teach these mofo's how to NOT be racist douches?

Enron went on page after page w/ the Baghdad Bob hands for these fellas. The onus is always on us to be tolerant, accepting, understanding and "progressive" when shit like this happens.

Nah no responsibility for the frat bros, think of the lost education should they be expelled! Think of how many more songs they'll sing referring to blacks as niggers!

 

[freeofgreed]

Well, this is cool.

http://kfor.com/2015/03/09/ou-alumnus-creates-fundraiser-to-help-cook-after-closure-of-fraternity/

fraternities have private cooks? I also read that they were gonna get Waka flacka flame to perform for them (Who cancelled). These kids are rolling in dough if they can afford private chefs and concerts, yet people still think them getting expelled is going to ruin their lives.

 

[Furyous]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for grown ass men that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants.

But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

I'm in ZERO SYMPATHY party. LOL at me giving any of these kids sympathy. They think we're less than human so watch as your world crumbles around you as a result of your free speech. OU admin is justifiably mad as shit this happened and takes steps to get rid of this stain off their university.

 

[Yamauchi]

What a bunch of idiots. Glad that the university seems to be reacting as it should.

 

[Angelus Errare]

How I see many of the apologetic posts in this thread.

Dear Black People

I think we should totes take the time to understand and be more tolerant of these kids and their racist song. Do you truly believe these kids are racist? Are these kids truly deserving of being demonized and removed from school? That's not fair to them, many of them were not fully aware of their actions or that their song was hurtful. For many more of them they were just singing because others were singing. Labeling them as "racist" is pretty harmful and can negatively affect their lives going forward, try imagining being one of these kids and knowing that people see you as less than an individual, less than a person, you wouldn't understand how that feels. Should these kids be punished for a simple mistake? Branded with a scarlet letter? Made fun of? That is insensitive towards their plight, there is a war going on in America were humility and forgiveness have been removed in favor of shame and scorn. In today's society it is harder to be white than any other group of people and whites are more likely to be targets of hate crimes. What "hate" you ask? Freedom of speech. What these kids said was mean spirited but ultimately harmless, they didn't actually hang anyone from a tree so the current actions being taken against them is disgusting. Do not be quick to judge these kids or to hate them. Teach them why what they're saying is wrong. It's the only way we as group of people can overcome these issues. Empathy not anger is the road to equality. MLK wouldn't want outrage or shock, he would advocate understanding and patience. There is only one race, the human race. We should stop seeing each other as different colors, we should instead see each other as brothers and sisters.

Sincerely
Moderates of America Inc.

Sorry but those adult fucks get zero sympathy from me. Not a single fuck out of my millions of fucks will EVER be given.

 

[Daingurse]

Expel the whole lot.

 

[m3k]

I was pleased to see, that on Australian television this morning, it was reported that some had started moving their things out over night

 

[Enzom21]

Man im surprised of all the empathy for grown ass men that sing about hanging people from the trees get in this kind of threads, somehow I doubt the reactions would be the same if its your race the one mentioned in those chants.

But hey, its up to black people once again to be considerate and patient towards this folk only guilty of the crime of seeing others as less than human.

Well according to Enron it's not real hate... so it's all good. Also not surprised that he thinks like this.

 

[pokeystaples]

May their frat house be closed, may their real names be released, may men who behave like racist fuckhole adolescent boys with poor home training finally get what is coming to them.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

They haven't been arrested or charged with any crime?

Just to level set here since I'm probably confused:

• Angelus Errare says that the first amendment is widely misunderstood (which I took to mean that he felt it wasn't applicable in this case.)
• I asked for clarification (admittedly, I should have added an "or not" to my question.)
• You said that you thought Angelus Errare was saying the first amendment didn't apply.
• I stated that the first amendment does apply and asked how it wouldn't apply.

That they haven't been arrested or charged (baring other causes of action) would be consistent with the idea that the First Amendment does apply in this case. Did I misunderstand Angelus Errare?

 

[Enron]

That they haven't been arrested or charged (baring other causes of action) would be consistent with the idea that the First Amendment does apply in this case. Did I misunderstand Angelus Errare?

them being arrested and charged doesn't mean shit, though. All that matters is whether or not OU can apply code of conduct to it or not.

 

[BigDes]

What I really want to see investigated (and I know I am pissing into the wind here but) is where the chant comes from.

I have no doubt this chant is a whole frat thing and didn't just spontaneously appear in this chapter and the one in Texas.

I want it to be investigated whether it is a chant that is taught to er whatever new people are called in Fraternity houses and if it is then the entire organisation needs to be closed down.

Of course this isn't going to happen, but it would be nice.

 

[Yaboosh]

Just to level set here since I'm probably confused:

• Angelus Errare says that the first amendment is widely misunderstood (which I took to mean that he felt it wasn't applicable in this case.)
• I asked for clarification (admittedly, I should have added an "or not" to my question.)
• You said that you thought Angelus Errare was saying the first amendment didn't apply.
• I stated that the first amendment does apply and asked how it wouldn't apply.

That they haven't been arrested or charged (baring other causes of action) would be consistent with the idea that the First Amendment does apply in this case. Did I misunderstand Angelus Errare?

Slightly. They are saying that the First Amendment doesn't prevent them from being expelled. Which I am pretty sure is wrong. I think it does prevent them from being expelled for this.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I'm really at a loss as to why anyone would feel sympathy for them.

These aren't 6 year old kids who don't know any better. They are grown men and women. They should know better, that they still feel chanting shit like that is acceptable or something that's even remotely funny is a disgrace and just shows how deep their hatred is rooted.

How can anyone feel even a shred for those adults. Not kids. ADULTS! (Please stop referring to them as kids. They are not kids. Jesus Christ.)

How? What is your thought process. Explain it to me, because I just can't understand where you're coming from in making that argument.

 

[Darksol]

If you're in university and don't see any reason why you shouldn't sing a song about excluding and/or killing another group of people, you should probably just save your parents the money and drop out already.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Slightly. They are saying that the First Amendment doesn't prevent them from being expelled. Which I am pretty sure is wrong. I think it does prevent them from being expelled for this.

Yeah pretty much.

Stating the realities of the law is not empathy. It's just stating the realities and answering people who think the members will be expelled.

If this were a private school, I'm sure they'd be expelled by now. But public schools are an extension of government and therefore must be very careful with what amounts to civil rights issues.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Just to level set here since I'm probably confused:

• Angelus Errare says that the first amendment is widely misunderstood (which I took to mean that he felt it wasn't applicable in this case.)
• I asked for clarification (admittedly, I should have added an "or not" to my question.)
• You said that you thought Angelus Errare was saying the first amendment didn't apply.
• I stated that the first amendment does apply and asked how it wouldn't apply.

That they haven't been arrested or charged (baring other causes of action) would be consistent with the idea that the First Amendment does apply in this case. Did I misunderstand Angelus Errare?

Vast majority of people (to include way too many in this thread) equate freedom of speech to freedom from consequences. These kids have freedom of speech and it hasn't been impeded at all but that doesn't mean they're free of consequences. They were free to spout racist nonsense and their consequence was that chapter was shut down. Way too many people in here think nothing should happen to these kids because freedom of speech....said people are delusional and quite possibly living in privilege land (I don't know what that's like).

 

[Yaboosh]

I'm really at a loss as to why anyone would feel sympathy for them.

These aren't 6 year old kids who don't know any better. They are grown men and women. They should know better, that they still feel chanting shit like that is acceptable or something that's even remotely funny is a disgrace and just shows how deep their hatred is rooted.

How can anyone feel even a shred for those adults. Not kids. ADULTS! (Please stop referring to them as kids. They are not kids. Jesus Christ.)

How? What is your thought process. Explain it to me, because I just can't understand where you're coming from in making that argument.

Please quote people. Nobody is going to think you are talking about them, and if you really want a discussion about why somebody holds a specific stance, it would be helpful to call them out directly.

Vast majority of people (to include way too many in this thread) equate freedom of speech to freedom from consequences. These kids have freedom of speech and it hasn't been impeded at all but that doesn't mean they're free of consequences. They were free to spout racist nonsense and their consequence was that chapter was shut down.

Has anybody said that they feel bad for these guys for getting kicked out of their fraternity and getting it banned from campus?

 

[Stet]

Just to level set here since I'm probably confused:

• Angelus Errare says that the first amendment is widely misunderstood (which I took to mean that he felt it wasn't applicable in this case.)
• I asked for clarification (admittedly, I should have added an "or not" to my question.)
• You said that you thought Angelus Errare was saying the first amendment didn't apply.
• I stated that the first amendment does apply and asked how it wouldn't apply.

That they haven't been arrested or charged (baring other causes of action) would be consistent with the idea that the First Amendment does apply in this case. Did I misunderstand Angelus Errare?

He said it was widely misunderstood because the misunderstanding is that it protects you from all recourse instead of just legal recourse.

 

[Rocketz]

What I really want to see investigated (and I know I am pissing into the wind here but) is where the chant comes from.

I have no doubt this chant is a whole frat thing and didn't just spontaneously appear in this chapter and the one in Texas.

I want it to be investigated whether it is a chant that is taught to er whatever new people are called in Fraternity houses and if it is then the entire organisation needs to be closed down.

Of course this isn't going to happen, but it would be nice.

As an alumni of SAE, no this is not something that is taught to new members. The extreme opposite of what SAE is about. It is gross that this chapter even knows such a chant. Any chapter that picked up this chant should be faced with punishment as well.

 

[BlackBanditSho]

How I see many of the apologetic posts in this thread.

Dear Black People

I think we should totes take the time to understand and be more tolerant of these kids and their racist song. Do you truly believe these kids are racist? Are these kids truly deserving of being demonized and removed from school? That's not fair to them, many of them were not fully aware of their actions or that their song was hurtful. For many more of them they were just singing because others were singing. Labeling them as "racist" is pretty harmful and can negatively affect their lives going forward, try imagining being one of these kids and knowing that people see you as less than an individual, less than a person, you wouldn't understand how that feels. Should these kids be punished for a simple mistake? Branded with a scarlet letter? Made fun of? That is insensitive towards their plight, there is a war going on in America were humility and forgiveness have been removed in favor of shame and scorn. In today's society it is harder to be white than any other group of people and whites are more likely to be targets of hate crimes. What "hate" you ask? Freedom of speech. What these kids said was mean spirited but ultimately harmless, they didn't actually hang anyone from a tree so the current actions being taken against them is disgusting. Do not be quick to judge these kids or to hate them. Teach them why what they're saying is wrong. It's the only way we as group of people can overcome these issues. Empathy not anger is the road to equality. MLK wouldn't want outrage or shock, he would advocate understanding and patience. There is only one race, the human race. We should stop seeing each other as different colors, we should instead see each other as brothers and sisters.

Sincerely
Moderates of America Inc.

Sorry but those adult fucks get zero sympathy from me. Not a single fuck out of my millions of fucks will EVER be given.

When they did the hanging from the tree part? I was /dead. Zero fucks.

 

[Angelus Errare]

He said it was widely misunderstood because the misunderstanding is that it protects you from all recourse instead of just legal recourse.

This.

 

[Assault]

I never understand the stupidity of these kind of people. Holding such beliefs in the first place makes you a shitbag, but openly chanting them without considering the repercussions (and getting filmed whilst doing it!) is total lunacy.

I hope they get what they deserve.

 

[NullPointer]

They're adults. There's no reason for kid gloves here. If anything its the perfect opportunity to send a very clear message about this behavior.

 

[block tower]

What I really want to see investigated (and I know I am pissing into the wind here but) is where the chant comes from.

I have no doubt this chant is a whole frat thing and didn't just spontaneously appear in this chapter and the one in Texas.

I want it to be investigated whether it is a chant that is taught to er whatever new people are called in Fraternity houses and if it is then the entire organisation needs to be closed down.

Of course this isn't going to happen, but it would be nice.

im sure youd have lots of frats linked because this type og behavior is prevalent in greek life culture throughout the country. basically boats shoes, polos, beer and racist/misogynist views make up the average frat boy.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Vast majority of people (to include way too many in this thread) equate freedom of speech to freedom from consequences. These kids have freedom of speech and it hasn't been impeded at all but that doesn't mean they're free of consequences. They were free to spout racist nonsense and their consequence was that chapter was shut down. Way too many people in here think nothing should happen to these kids because freedom of speech....said people are delusional and quite possibly living in privilege land (I don't know what that's like).

Has anyone said nothing should happen? I haven't seen that at all.

While there is no freedom from consequence from private entities and citizens, there is from public bodies. Which includes OU. Unless they can successfully argue this video was immediately threatening or harassing to someone, they're not going to be expelled.

There is case law that supports this and the Supreme Court has stated this pretty much exactly on numerous occasions.