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[Gaiff]

In raw power, it 100% was. Now whether the RT and AI can tip the scales in the favor of the PS5 Pro remains to be seen. Although, the PS4 Pro's CPU was a piece of crap. The PS5's isn't very good either but it's serviceable.

 

[bitbydeath]

You only need a video card that supports the resolution and every card since 2020 is able to.

As above, the 3090 released in 2020. So looks like both were correct. Lol

Didn’t think it was so long ago!

 

[zeroluck]

A TFLOP is a TFLOP, even if you have infinite TFLOP GPU if games are only doing pure compute 50% of the time you will only get 2x speed up.

 

[shamoomoo]

NVIDIA says a lot of things.

They can play at 8K. Whether the performance is acceptable for you or not is a different story. Plus, the 8K claims are pure marketing bullshit. They said that because the $1500 RTX 3090 was only about 10-15% faster than the $700 RTX 3080. So what can we tell people to sucker them into spending over twice the money for marginal performance improvements? 8K!


Yes, so from the DF video, we gather the PS5's GPU performs quite close to its PC counterpart in most scenarios. Why would it suddenly change with the PS5 Pro?

Forget the difference in Nvidia's architecture for a second, whatever shortcomings AMD has on the PC for comparable Nvidia GPU shouldn't exactly apply to a closed platform because devs have more access vs the PC counter part.

The PS5 doesn't have infinite cache nor is the GPU clocked as fast as the GPU is based off,so if the PS5 is already comparable to its closest PC equivalent with known shortcoming then why can't the Pro be a bit faster with known advantages with regards to fill rate?

 

[Bojji]

As above, the 3090 released in 2020. So looks like both were correct. Lol

Didn’t think it was so long ago!

And yet this console won't even be on a level of 3080 4 years later.

Consoles upgrades will slow down, without big node reductions you need more power to achieve higher performance and that's part of the reason why this console is not impressive at all even compared to (already unimpressive) PS4 Pro.

PS6 will be even less impressive upgrade than PS5 was to PS4.

 

[Elios83]

A TFLOP is a TFLOP, even if you have infinite TFLOP GPU if games are only doing pure compute 50% of the time you will only get 2x speed up.

Yup, some people are already playing stupid games like "it's not a real figure" you have to divide by this and by that when teraflops are just a peak theoretical figure and what happens always depends on code and compiler efficiency.
If a compiler is available to make good use of the dual issue feature you will get way more than 17TF our of the FPUs.
If your code is unoptimozed and can't keep the FPUs constantly well fed even in single issue you won't even have 17TF.

Also these comparison are totally missing the point. The system is obviously designed around the principle of fixing the original design's weaknesses. They're not bothering with the AI upscaler if the idea is to increase raster so that native 4k is achievable in every game.
The design philosophy with these specs is clear.
Run the game at an internal resolution that allows for 60fps and a lot of ray traced stuff, increase the raster performance so that this base resolution is high enough that the AI upscaler is very effective at reconstructing a native-like 4K image.
You get everything with a single stone in real life applications designing things smartly.
It's obviously something designed by Cerny.

 

[Bojji]

Run the game at an internal resolution that allows for 60fps and a lot of ray traced stuff, increase the raster performance so that this base resolution is high enough that the AI upscaler is very effective at reconstructing a native-like 4K image.

It's obviously something designed by Cerny.

More like nvidia in 2018.

 

[hyperbertha]

So much wrong in a single post. Tf happened with you rofif?

He has an abusive spouse he's in love ve with - forespoken

 

[C2brixx]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

 

[bitbydeath]

And yet this console won't even be on a level of 3080 4 years later.

Consoles upgrades will slow down, without big node reductions you need more power to achieve higher performance and that's part of the reason why this console is not impressive at all even compared to (already unimpressive) PS4 Pro.

PS6 will be even less impressive upgrade than PS5 was to PS4.

I set my expectations lower, thinking they’d butterfly it, same as the PS4 pro approach. I guess that wasn’t good enough for their 8K upscaling technique.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

And yet this console won't even be on a level of 3080 4 years later.

Consoles upgrades will slow down, without big node reductions you need more power to achieve higher performance and that's part of the reason why this console is not impressive at all even compared to (already unimpressive) PS4 Pro.

PS6 will be even less impressive upgrade than PS5 was to PS4.

4 years later how much is a 3080?

 

[Dokku]

PC’s require 40TF to reach 8K, this console reaches 8K with help from PSSR, seems like it is much closer to 33TF than you’re thinking, or there’s some super secret sauce if your stuck on it must be 17TF.

I think several people have already mentioned in this thread the dual compute issue. If a game is completely designed to make use of dual compute then yes, you might have circa 30 teraflops of performance.

But the honest truth is that is rarely if ever going to happen. The console will be as powerful as an equivalent 15-17 tflop pc gpu that doesn't make use of dual compute.

With regards to the 8k thing....it's almost certainly going to be upscaled from a much lower resolution in anything but the most simple of games. Perhaps 1440p or 4k. The system would then use PSSR to reconstruct it to 8k. So it won't need 40tflops of power.

 

[midnightAI]

Yup, some people are already playing stupid games like "it's not a real figure" you have to divide by this and by that when teraflops are just a peak theoretical figure and what happens always depends on code and compiler efficiency.
If a compiler is available to make good use of the dual issue feature you will get way more than 17TF our of the FPUs.
If your code is unoptimozed and can't keep the FPUs constantly well fed even in single issue you won't even have 17TF.

Also these comparison are totally missing the point. The system is obviously designed around the principle of fixing the original design's weaknesses. They're not bothering with the AI upscaler if the idea is to increase raster so that native 4k is achievable in every game.
The design philosophy with these specs is clear.
Run the game at an internal resolution that allows for 60fps and a lot of ray traced stuff, increase the raster performance so that this base resolution is high enough that the AI upscaler is very effective at reconstructing a native-like 4K image.
You get everything with a single stone in real life applications designing things smartly.
It's obviously something designed by Cerny.

Someone got there in the end

 

[Elios83]

More like nvidia in 2018.

In 2018 they were more beta testing these features using consumers but yes in the PC space with GPUs costing more than 1000$ nVidia is clearly unmatched.
In a console environment with a price cap at 500-600$ for the whole system it's a different story.

 

[Bojji]

I set my expectations lower, thinking they’d butterfly it, same as the PS4 pro approach. I guess that wasn’t good enough for their 8K upscaling technique.

I expected butterfly 72CU part just like Pro was designed but they clearly were limited by power draw or some other metrics.

4 years later how much is a 3080?

You can't buy it new because it's an old GPU, 4070 and 7800XT offer similar raster performance for ~540$ (4070) and ~500$ (7800xt)

Or used 3080 for ~400$.

In 2018 they were more beta testing these features using consumers but yes in the PC space with GPUs costing more than 1000$ nVidia is clearly unmatched.
In a console environment with a price cap at 500-600$ for the whole system it's a different story.

You could buy 2060 super more than one year before PS5 release date with Ai upscaling and better than PS5 performance with RT for 399$.

 

[hlm666]

4 years later how much is a 3080?

out of production so you want the cheapest 2nd hand price we can find?

 

[RoadHazard]

I wonder if some of the new GPU stuff can allow some CPU tasks to be offloaded to it. Otherwise this thing isn't gonna ensure 60fps quality modes across all games, which should be the #1 thing an upgraded console should achieve.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So far, the PS5 Pro is taking a different approach then the PS4 Pro.

The first and obvious sign, is not doubling the CUs.

Part of that approach was to make PS4 compatibility easier, it might be easier from the custom RDNA2 implementation they chose to transition to a custom RDNA4 & RDNA3 maintaining backwards compatibility. This is them learning from the PS4 Pro and applying changes to the HW and the PS5 SDK to make a simpler situation easier.
PS4 Pro also ended with way too many ROPs for the bandwidth they had so a butterfly design might not be needed (they are not far off doubling the CU resources though, these CUs are also likely bigger in and of themselves).

Minor deviation but still in the same spirit.

Nothing suggests Sony can't use Zen4c.
Even Kepler, the one who started the Zen2 rumor, doesn't say Zen4c can't be used because compatibility.

They physically could, but more signs point to “they do not really need to” than the other way around.

 

[Elios83]

You could buy 2060 super more than one year before PS5 release date with Ai upscaling and better than PS5 performance with RT for 399$.

In raster performance PS5 is more than a 2060 but let's leave that in the arguable category based on the particular game you're testing.
And the cost of the rest of the PC where you have to put that GPU inside?

 

[dorkimoe]

More 30fps games in coming.

Also they better have an inventory this time

 

[RoadHazard]

Part of that approach was to make PS4 compatibility easier, it might be easier from the custom RDNA2 implementation they chose to transition to a custom RDNA4 & RDNA3 maintaining backwards compatibility. This is them learning from the PS4 Pro and applying changes to the HW and the PS5 SDK to make a simpler situation easier.
PS4 Pro also ended with way too many ROPs for the bandwidth they had so a butterfly design might not be needed (they are not far off doubling the CU resources though, these CUs are also likely bigger in and of themselves).

Minor deviation but still in the same spirit.



They physically could, but more signs point to “they do not really need to” than the other way around.

Why don't they need to? If it's still Zen 2, is it gonna be larger or faster? Otherwise we will still have CPU limited games that can't reach a consistent 60fps, and that would suck.

 

[rkofan87]

500$ any more then that no thanks.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

GTAVI crossed my mind, but I honestly wouldn't consider GTAVI "near future". That game could come out in November 2025 for all we know at this point.

GTA will be out by April 2025 at the latest. I have no idea how to get to November.

 

[onQ123]

In teraflops this is 1.67x of PS5 while pro was 2.33x of PS4. I don't know where they get that 45% when terflop numbers say something completely different.

Because that's the fixed function pipeline .

stuff that use traditional rendering will only see a small boost but compute & AI stuff will get a really big boost.

 

[Bojji]

In raster performance PS5 is more than a 2060 but let's leave that in the arguable category based on the particular game you're testing.
And the cost of the rest of the PC where you have to put that GPU inside?

You were talking about 1000$ GPUs like it was only option or something, 2060S is weaker in raster than PS5 but with RT enabled it's faster.

2070 super is on the level of PS5 in raster and much faster with RT and was 500$ in 2019.

 

[ReBurn]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

It'll be a mix of people upgrading and people buying it as their first PS5. I don't think it's going to be a significant driver of sales on its own after the frantic scalping period.

PS4 Pro only ended up being about 12% of the PS4 install base by the end of last generation. If the base PS5 remains on the market and is less expensive than the PS5 Pro then it's probably reasonable to believe that 12% is probably also the ratio Sony expects this time around. Games will continue to be made to base PS5 specs because there are already 50+ million of those out there. No games will be made specifically for PS5 Pro specs, they'll have Pro support bolted on. So game prices in general will probably stay the same.

 

[jroc74]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

Getting $500-$600 from a fraction of existing users is nothing to sneeze at.

That's the business rationale. Most of the time businesses do things to make money.

 

[Salz01]

Doesn't seem possible, if the framerate is locked at 30FPS in software, no hardware can make it run with more frames no matter what you do. You will need a patch that just does what you do when you go into the settings on PC to change the FPS cap.

Understood. Thanks

 

[Fbh]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

I'd guess it's probably more about keeping the enthusiast crowd engaged (instead of them looking at other options like PC) and keeping the PS5 in the conversation in regards to tech.
Also I don't think making a Ps5pro version of a game will make it that more expensive, games on PC (which are most games now) are already made to adjust to a variety of hardware configurations and that doesn't make them insanely expensive (in fact, they are usually cheaper). Based on last gen, games on the pro console will just be the same game with some basic setting cranked up a bit.

 

[Vyse]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

Sure I’m most likely an outlier, but I get all of the systems and love a good upgrade.

 

[ozz ex machina]

I wonder do these "Pro" systems increase the install base or just sell to the same customers? I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the purchases come from previous PS5 owners? Game prices will stay the same yet developers will have to spend even more time optimizing for these upgraded systems. What's the business rationale here?

Lots more hardware sales, better PR on game performance and it's not that much work for developers especially those where the games were already coming to PC.


I already sold my PS5 not long ago for a tiny amount less than I paid at launch lol. Will be getting a pro purely for GTA 6, will play other games I missed then sell it again.

 

[bitbydeath]

I think several people have already mentioned in this thread the dual compute issue. If a game is completely designed to make use of dual compute then yes, you might have circa 30 teraflops of performance.

But the honest truth is that is rarely if ever going to happen. The console will be as powerful as an equivalent 15-17 tflop pc gpu that doesn't make use of dual compute.

With regards to the 8k thing....it's almost certainly going to be upscaled from a much lower resolution in anything but the most simple of games. Perhaps 1440p or 4k. The system would then use PSSR to reconstruct it to 8k. So it won't need 40tflops of power.

The last part I mentioned previously, it’ll work similar to the 4K boosting on the PS4 Pro, as for the dual compute I covered this earlier too, it’s still 10TFS vs 33TFS at the end of the day, it’s not like RDNA3/dual compute gimps their cards.

RDNA 3 GPUs can hit the same frequency as RDNA 2 GPUs while using half the power

AMD RDNA 3 GPU Architecture Deep Dive: The Ryzen Moment for GPUs

Swimming with the next generation GPUs

www.tomshardware.com

It’s a feature that lets them punch above their weight, not below.

 

[Gudji]

Hope it isn't more than $500.

 

[Elios83]

You were talking about 1000$ GPUs like it was only option or something, 2060S is weaker in raster than PS5 but with RT enabled it's faster.

2070 super is on the level of PS5 in raster and much faster with RT and was 500$ in 2019.

Yes I was talking about that price range for the GPU because that's the price category where consoles can't really hope to compete anymore with PCs in performance.
And as you said if to get something comparable to consoles you need 500$ (I haven't checked the prices I'm trusting your figures) just for the GPU and then you need to add the rest of the PC you realize how much more constrained console designers are or conversedly how much worse the performance per dollar metric is on PC.

But this is not about consoles vs PC though, at least not for me.
My point was that Cerny has clearly focused on fixing the deficiencies of the original PS5 design and doing that smartly to keep costs down.
Fixing the shitty RDNA2 ray tracing performance and using a combo of adequate raster improvement to make an AI upscaler do its job greatly, is a really balanced way to do things without making this thing cost 700$ (I hope for my wallet... )

 

[Panajev2001a]

So you are basing this on what? Numbers tell different story.

Take for example this scene, console version is locked to 40fps but it drops in this place:

Without 40fps lock PS5 pro will run this:

- 54FPS if console is 45% more powerful (raw performance uplift in Sony words)
- 60FPS if console is 63% more powerful (theoretical number based on TF)

It wouldn't be bad to get 60FPS in previously locked 40FPS games but for 30FPS games it won't be that great:

- 42FPS with 45% upgrade
- 47FPS with theoretical max (63% upgrade)

While Pro was 2.3x more powerful than PS4 (in theory) and was able to run 30FPS PS4 game in 60FPS when CPU load wasn't an issue:

Of course real world games were massively bottlenecked by jaguars so it was a rare sight to see such difference in performance.

But Pro was doing 1440p in most games that were 1080p on PS4 so that's 78% resolution uplift in most games and some games had higher resolution like 1800p etc.

Of course real output of PS4 Pro was bottlenecked by weak CPU and insufficient memory BW upgrade but same is true for PS5 Pro, so theoretical 63% upgrade is most likely not possible in real life. Different story when RT is in play but we will see how much that 2-4x upgrade looks in real life.

I think we are milking the 45% rendering uplift as if it was a generic FPS increase. In RT limited titles you are likely to see far more than that and that is before their supposedly brand new up scaling solution comes into effect.

 

[C2brixx]

Getting $500-$600 from a fraction of existing users is nothing to sneeze at.

That's the business rationale. Most of the time businesses do things to make money.

Can't imagine there is much profit for Sony in a Pro system even at $600 in this new inflationary environment. $800-$1000 would make more sense if this was a hardware profit play. PS5 sales aren't slowing down and that system is nothing but profit for them at this point. There won't be PS5 Pro specific games for Sony to charge more for so the businesses rationale for Sony is in the hardware. Will be interesting to see where they come in on price for this.

 

[Alphagear]

You were talking about 1000$ GPUs like it was only option or something, 2060S is weaker in raster than PS5 but with RT enabled it's faster.

2070 super is on the level of PS5 in raster and much faster with RT and was 500$ in 2019.

What about the rest of the components or are you running your games on a GPU alone?

Honestly why do people continue to argue that PC are comparable value wise to consoles.

Console makers barring Nintendo take a loss on console sales at launch.

Do GPU makers take a loss on PC at launch?

Doesn’t that say enough?

 

[Loxus]

I think I somewhat figured out where that 300 Tops 8-bit number comes from. I couldn't find a solid formula for 8-bit.

Here Nvidia says 6× throughput compared to Fp16.
NVIDIA Tensor Cores
The NVIDIA Hopper™ architecture advances fourth-generation Tensor Cores with the Transformer Engine using a new 8-bit floating point precision (FP8) to deliver 6X higher performance over FP16 for trillion-parameter model training.

Here, 5× but seems like 4× (.330 × 4 = 1.32)
GeForce RTX 40 Series Graphics Cards: Up To 4X Faster, Powered By 3rd Gen RTX Architecture & NVIDIA DLSS 3
Ada’s new 4th Generation Tensor Cores are unbelievably fast, with an all new 8-Bit Floating Point (FP8) Tensor Engine, increasing throughput by up to 5X, to 1.32 Tensor-petaFLOPS on the GeForce RTX 4090.

For PS5 Pro with 54CUs, the formula goes like this.

256 FLOPS × 2 AI Accelerator × 54 CU × 2.425GHz＝ 67 Fp16 TFLOPS

PS5 with a throughput of probably 4.5× get us around 300 Tops.
67 × 4.48 throughput = 300 Tops.

 

[Fake]

Outputting 8K and playing games in 8K are two very different things.

People will come to understand as soon as Nintendo release their sucessor.

Output is just the signal, the game running at native resolution was never in question.

 

[Topher]

What about the rest of the components or are you running your games on a GPU alone?

Honestly why do people continue to argue that PC are comparable value wise to consoles.

Console makers barring Nintendo take a loss on console sales at launch.

Do GPU makers take a loss at launch?

Doesn’t that say enough.

Doesn't really say anything considering PC component manufacturers are not making hardware designed to limit where you buy the games you will be playing. Console makers do and that's why they can take losses on the hardware.

There isn't any debate on upfront costs of console vs PC, but not necessarily true over time with PC game discounts, free online, etc.

 

[Jibran#one]

And yet everyone is complaining that FFVII Rebirth has a vaseline filter in performance mode, that Dragon's Dogma 2 won't even have a performance mode, that FSR/FSR2 looks like shit and creates pixel crawling in all games it is used (the true horror in Alan Wake 2 was this ) and so on and on.

PS5 Pro is for those that want better graphics, ray tracing effects and performance in their games.
You don't need another TV for this and this is a plus because it doesn't restrict the market furtherly due to another purchase being necessary.
The whole PC market has its existence based on people who upgrade their systems.
No one is forcing you to buy another 1500$ GPU and no one will force you to buy a PS5 Pro either but the benefits are there and there's a whole enthusiasts market that cares a lot about this stuff.

So for a few I optimized games u need a new console ?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You can't buy it new because it's an old GPU, 4070 and 7800XT offer similar raster performance for ~540$ (4070) and ~500$ (7800xt)

Or used 3080 for ~400$.

out of production so you want the cheapest 2nd hand price we can find?

So still likely more money than a PS5 Pro after you account for other components and peripherals...

 

[welshrat]

Day one. Nice to have some specs least at last.

 

[saintjules]

 

[Loxus]

I'm sure Sony would work on CPU performance as well.

Mark Cerny philosophy is all about removing bottlenecks.

 

[Del_X]

I remember when people were saying it was gonna be like 4070-equivalent.

At least I’m pretty sure it won’t be north of $599

 

[Topher]

I remember when people were saying it was gonna be like 4070-equivalent.

We still don't know what it is equivalent to. This isn't an off the shelf GPU so we will only know what the PC equivalent is after many benchmarks.

This is always the case with new GPUs in the PC sector and it is no different here.

 

[nosoynadie22]

The arrogant Sony is back! How is it that your new $500 console isn't better than an RTX 4090?

 

[shamoomoo]

I think I somewhat figured out where that 300 Tops 8-bit number comes from. I couldn't find a solid formula for 8-bit.

Here Nvidia says 6× throughput compared to Fp16.
NVIDIA Tensor Cores
The NVIDIA Hopper™ architecture advances fourth-generation Tensor Cores with the Transformer Engine using a new 8-bit floating point precision (FP8) to deliver 6X higher performance over FP16 for trillion-parameter model training.

Here, 5× but seems like 4× (.330 × 4 = 1.32)
GeForce RTX 40 Series Graphics Cards: Up To 4X Faster, Powered By 3rd Gen RTX Architecture & NVIDIA DLSS 3
Ada’s new 4th Generation Tensor Cores are unbelievably fast, with an all new 8-Bit Floating Point (FP8) Tensor Engine, increasing throughput by up to 5X, to 1.32 Tensor-petaFLOPS on the GeForce RTX 4090.

For PS5 Pro with 54CUs, the formula goes like this.

256 FLOPS × 2 AI Accelerator × 54 CU × 2.425GHz＝ 67 Fp16 TFLOPS

PS5 with a throughput of probably 4.5× get us around 300 Tops.
67 × 4.48 throughput = 300 Tops.

Yeah, there's supposedly an AI engine on the Pro. Again,we aren't getting 54 CU because of the number of shader engines, there's 2 SEs for the Pro.

 

[Topher]

The arrogant Sony is back! How is it that your new $500 console isn't better than an RTX 4090?