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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

Imagine thinking this would look better WITHOUT the post-processing effects? lmfao.

Hating CA and film grain and motion blur is just a You problem. Its there for a reason.


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I've played the game without these effects and it looked miles better IMO.
The fact that you like when graphics look like a movie shot on a bad camera doesn't make it "good", it's just your personal preference.
As I've said already, it is not up to the "artists" to decide how people prefer to see the world around them.
 
This is opinion. period. simple.
It's not, it's a fact - you missed the post https://www.neogaf.com/threads/graphical-fidelity-i-expect-this-gen.1623441/post-271832649

Massive films well known for their cinematography still use it.
I know, I've already said I have nothing against film grain. But it's still a defect, and I probably like it because of nostalgia.
That's why I'm only talking about chromatic aberration. Deliberately adding it in post-production to a film with great cinematography is not common, if it's done at all. You only see something like that in films deliberately stylized to look retro.
 
It's not, it's a fact - you missed the post https://www.neogaf.com/threads/graphical-fidelity-i-expect-this-gen.1623441/post-271832649


I know, I've already said I have nothing against film grain. But it's still a defect, and I probably like it because of nostalgia.
That's why I'm only talking about chromatic aberration. Deliberately adding it in post-production to a film with great cinematography is not common, if it's done at all. You only see something like that in films deliberately stylized to look retro.
Of course it's a defect. We agree on that. But like I said, technical perfection isn't always the goal in a creative endeavor. CA is a lens effect though. There is no reason to do it in post. They would simply use the appropriate lens to shoot the scene, when they think it's effective. I think CA is appropriate to show a period in time, typically the past, or a mental state.

The Joker has great use of CA. They deliberately used vintage lenses on digital camera for this, amongst other reasons. Despite being vintage, it's very subtle throughout the frame, but quite noticeable on the outline of his jacket

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But I do agree that CA should be used very selectively and sparingly in games. Rendering is reaching a point where we don't need it in everything to cover up other issues. If we need to zoom in 200% or view it on a giant screen to even notice it, that is the right amount of tolerable CA for prolonged exposure. Anything beyond that should be handled selectively and carefully, unlike the amateur over usage by devs.
 
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let us celebrate with gifs
You don't even understand what's in those gifs in any sense.

CA is a lens effect though. There is no reason to do it in post. They would simply use the appropriate lens to shoot the scene, when they think it's effective.
Ridley Scott switched to digital because it's not that simple. And modern digital cameras don't produce this effect to such an extreme degree.

I think CA is appropriate to show a period in time, typically the past, or a mental state.
True.

Despite being vintage, it's very subtle, but quite noticeable on the outline of his jacket
It's not that noticeable at all. The color grading helps mask it.

If we need to zoom in 200% or view it on a giant screen to even notice it, that is the right amount of tolerable CA for prolonged exposure.
What you showed in the picture depends on focus, so you can't apply the same thing to gameplay. And in cutscenes, it matters much less.

You know what that means, right?
It means everyone has a different opinion on these settings.
Not that different. Only around 15% of people like CA. So Gonzito Gonzito was right about it being gay.
 
It's not that noticeable at all. The color grading helps mask it.
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It was very noticeable on the big screen throughout the movie. It's nothing like what they try to pull off in games though, which straight up resemble Temu lenses.

I think Intergalactic, ILL, GTA, for example, have the right amount of CA. Not distracting, but additive in subtle ways.
 
lets hope it gets a spiderman 2 style glow up close to release. lets not forget SP2 looked like absolute garbage until the september previews. wolverine already looks better. hopefully sony gave them more time to polish it up.
"spiderman 2 style glow up"
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Which glow up lol, it still looked bad even after the previews. It was one of the biggest disappointments from Sony this gen.
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"spiderman 2 style glow up"
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Which glow up lol, it still looked bad even after the previews. It was one of the biggest disappointments from Sony this gen.
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lol wtf is that final screenshot.

And it definitely had a glow up. the previews showed way better lighting than the E3 demo. I am too lazy to go back and try and find which page it was, but i remember coming around on the game back then.

Overall, its definitely a disappointment, but not complete garbage looking like that E3 demo.
 
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You know what that means, right?
It means everyone has a different opinion on these settings.
Not really, most people agree that CA is shit but a few people (especially one) are pushing their opinion as a fact and want everyone to agree with them. And since they can't accept to be wrong, they spam the thread.
 
I am team post processing effects. It is often the secret sauce that can transform a game's look and allow the artists to achieve their true vision. Old example but there's a tech showcase of Killzone Shadowfall that demonstrates this really well at the 40 second mark



Though I do fully support the option to toggle these off. I know a lot of gamers are all about function, raw image quality, and framerate over everything. Artistic intent is secondary to a lot of people. That's just how it is.
 
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Konami released an updated version of their 2024 game for 2026.
Lighting seems to be improved a bit for this one. Though its hard to say without a direct comparison.


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So BF6 just got its S4 update and i swear the game looking better than before. Texture detail is so crisp on everything i dont remember being this good. Maybe it was some streaming issue or something

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How's the campaign in this one. Worth buying just for that? I'd try online of course but haven't played anything online in years.
 
gaf has more common sense than era but the main forum has some retarded takes on graphics so lets not take their word as gospel.
If you mean they love GoY graphics, that only proves my point—even casuals don't like CA.

Old example but there's a tech showcase of Killzone Shadowfall that demonstrates this really well at the 40 second mark
The discussion was about specific types of post-processing, not post-processing in general https://www.neogaf.com/threads/chro...n-vignette-do-you-like-these-effects.1699589/
 
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But like I said, technical perfection isn't always the goal in a creative endeavor. CA is a lens effect though. There is no reason to do it in post. They would simply use the appropriate lens to shoot the scene, when they think it's effective. I think CA is appropriate to show a period in time, typically the past, or a mental state.
Games are not being shot - or viewed - through lens though.
That's the biggest issue with all lens based effects in games - CA, vignette, distortions, flares, etc.
Same goes for film based defects like film grain, scratches, motion blur, etc. - games are not being shot on film, there's no digital noise even.

Thus they could be appropriate if what you want to show is essentially a game which looks like it's been shot through lens on a film - but considering the obvious fact that it wasn't providing an option of disabling all that is essential for those who would like to see the game as a game and not as a movie - which, again, a game obviously isn't.

In other words, a stylization which makes sense in a movie rarely makes sense in a game because games are not movies.
It's the same old argument as what we've had back in the days of FXAA vs MSAA vs TXAA. There was this TXAA blur option which was added as a means to make MSAA'ed games look "realistic", and by "realistic" the original author of the technique meant "like a movie". It was generally panned and disliked because gamers generally do not see games as movies, on quite the contrary they see them as games, which aren't being shot on film through some lens, and the end game in gaming graphics is not to "emulate" how a movie looks, it's to emulate how real world around us looks.
Hence why such effects are disliked by the majority of gamers.
 
While we are on the topic of camera defects, how do people feel about lens flares these days? I still cringe when I see it being slapped on as a replacement for actual lighting. Plenty of it in Wolverine. The one below is acceptable. Actual bright laser beam causing a "flare":

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But I can't stand these types of bullshit headlights that can't even light up the road ahead, but "flaring" to cover up that fact.
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Even spotted one in GTA 6
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Can't wait for the complete transition to megalights-style solutions so we don't ever have to see these anymore. These are objectively being used as crutches to hide rendering inadequacies. Flares are not a replacement for real lighting!
My god, the wolverine lighting is terrible, I didn't even notice the headlights casting literally 0 light. That scene is really weird actually, there's like no lighting anywhere, isn't that supposed to be a city and yet none of the buildings have any lights, so weird. I actually quite like lens flares, really works well alongside other post processing effects imo.
 
Movies have carefully curated sets and shots. That doesn't work for vidya when you're the one controlling the camera/player.

And that is why videogames are not movies.
you would be surprised to find just how many fake lights devs and artists put in each team that your player traverses through.

Games are just as curated if not more. But thats besides the point, if the dev who placed those hidden lights also thinks CA will bring out the intended look then who are we to say anything.
 
Games are not being shot - or viewed - through lens though.
That's the biggest issue with all lens based effects in games - CA, vignette, distortions, flares, etc.
Same goes for film based defects like film grain, scratches, motion blur, etc. - games are not being shot on film, there's no digital noise even.
This is not how devs view games. Everything is make-believe in games by its very nature of being software simulations. The characters and the world are made of triangles. Textures are mapped onto them. The Sun isn't actually the Sun. The water isn't water. Literally nothing is stopping devs from imagining the game being viewed through a lens and/or recorded on film. It's already being viewed through a "camera", which also isn't real. Such terms in game graphics are directly inherited from moviemaking across live action and CGI. Lens simulation already exists in game engines and are only bound to get more complex. The Witcher 4, for example, had a very specific requirements for anamorphic lens simulation in their reveal trailer and required custom R&D in UE. There was a whole Unreal Fest talk on it. Like it or not, this is the the direction of travel for game graphics development. Accurate lens simulation will eventually become a thing. May be limited to cutscenes, but it's only a matter of time before devs start experimenting with it in gameplay as well.



Thus they could be appropriate if what you want to show is essentially a game which looks like it's been shot through lens on a film - but considering the obvious fact that it wasn't providing an option of disabling all that is essential for those who would like to see the game as a game and not as a movie - which, again, a game obviously isn't.

In other words, a stylization which makes sense in a movie rarely makes sense in a game because games are not movies.
It's the same old argument as what we've had back in the days of FXAA vs MSAA vs TXAA. There was this TXAA blur option which was added as a means to make MSAA'ed games look "realistic", and by "realistic" the original author of the technique meant "like a movie". It was generally panned and disliked because gamers generally do not see games as movies, on quite the contrary they see them as games, which aren't being shot on film through some lens, and the end game in gaming graphics is not to "emulate" how a movie looks, it's to emulate how real world around us looks.
Hence why such effects are disliked by the majority of gamers.
Well, I haven't been addressing gamer psychology all this while. Just trying to explore what a dev must be thinking while adding these effects. And I think we both agree that the dev is often thinking they need to emulate films, hence throwing in these effects that gamers don't necessarily like. I'm not passing judgment one way or the other. I personally hate most implementations of CA and excessive film grain or vignetting, but don't mind the rest.

When it comes to hypothesizing what a gamer is thinking, I see it quite differently. I don't think the average gamer cares about the nuanced difference between live action movie and real life. For them, they are quite synonymous and used interchangeably. It's only nerds like us trying to make a distinction. What a game should look like, unlike movies, is still a constantly moving goal post. I used to think Max Payne 1 and Half Life 1 looked like real life and that we have hit diminishing returns decades ago. Now what I saw last year looks less impressive if I see it again after a year, because all our expectations are constantly evolving with every advancement in rendering. And what happens when we actually hit photorealism? Would we be satisfied if every realistic game looks the same? Or would we be drawn towards games with a unique visual identity? Who even knows? The answers to these are not as cut and dry. Mainstream film has had access to photo realistic capture for more than 70 years and counting (more than a 100, if we look past mainstream) and they are still experimenting. That's a massive head start on games as a visual medium. Should games be treated differently? Absolutely. But it's only natural that a baby tries to copy grown ups. And it's natural to stumble and learn along the way.

The reason majority gamers don't like lens/film effects is not because they resemble movies, but because they are often a detriment to gameplay, fun and accuracy. Film grain, CA, DoF mean that you can see less of the screen. CA and DoF can actually cause physical reactions. Lens flares can distract gameplay. All of these effects actively get in the way of the player. Most aren't thinking "ewww, this looks like a movie. I don't want games to be viewed through a lens". That may be a rationalization after the experience, but not what they are thinking during the experience. But a majority would think "I can't see shit, captain. Turn it off". And to make things worse, devs have been going wayyy overboard with these effects to the extent that gamers are now averse to it. Many would turn them off even before starting the game to see what it actually looks like. Understandably, there is a massive negative bias.

There is also the complication of cutscene versus gameplay. Because cutscenes do resemble movies, there is an automatic expectation that all these effects are in place then. Imagine watching cutscene closeups in 2026 without DoF. Gamers are often wowed by smooth transitions from cutscene to gameplay. So how do you prevent a disconnect if there is no DoF or other lens effects in gameplay? How do you preserve the visual presentation so it all looks cohesive? These are all gradually maturing areas where devs are learning to pare back obtrusive effects and strike the right balance, without creating a dissonance that makes the gamer feel like the game is being downgraded from cutscenes, which has been the norm so far.

Will these effects stand the test of time? I don't know. Ultimately, what gamers want should and will take precedence. But relatively speaking, these are very early days and I believe we still don't fully even know what we want. One thing that I can say for sure is I want graphics to be in service of gameplay instead of an impediment. As a gamer, whether that resembles real life, or minecraft , or anime or a movie from the 50s, I couldn't care less. We all have preferences on that. But whatever it's going for, it needs to wow me while not getting in the way. That's about it.
 
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May be limited to cutscenes, but it's only a matter of time before devs start experimenting with it in gameplay as well.
In some horror games that use the effect to create discomfort—maybe. In some visual novel-style games too. But in mainstream games? Not until eye tracking becomes mainstream (which probably won't happen in our lifetime). Movies are static. Games are fully dynamic, so you need dynamic "optical focus" that actually follows the player's eyes.
 
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In some horror games that use the effect to create discomfort—maybe. In some visual novel-style games too. But in mainstream games? Not until eye tracking becomes mainstream (which probably won't happen in our lifetime). Movies are static. Games are fully dynamic, so you need dynamic "optical focus" that actually follows the player's eyes.
Agreed. But most devs do a decent job with DoF already, no? They pare it back to the point that only extremely distant objects that tend to be towards the edges of the screen have DoF during gameplay. I personally haven't come across a single game where I thought DoF in gameplay was overused and detrimental, though I can recognize that it is subjective. I will also admit that I talk and analyze more about games than I actually play them. Lol. So my exposure may be limited and there may be some real bad ones out there. Most games I've played even selectively use DoF for non-interactive moments, like combo finishers or while zooming in, and they look fantastic. It's usually the other effects where I feel devs are not striking the right balance.

And all this applies only to first or 3rd person games. For isometric games, side scrollers or fixed camera, DoF and other post processing effects can massively improve the look of a game. Just look at this beauty:


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Just tested the new PSSR 2.0 update for SM2 and I think there is a tangible difference/improvement over the system toggle. Also posting as a reminder that no other current gen game maintains this level of asset density with the speed of play. SM2 is in a league of it's own on that front.

Oh and the CA looks awesome😅😅😅

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