AcademicSaucer
Member
It could be the new Kingdom Hearts controller if you pitch it to Square Enix.
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Nintendo Patent Application - Handheld (or controller?) featuring a free-form display
- Thread starter Disorientator
- Start date
It could be the new Kingdom Hearts controller if you pitch it to Square Enix.
Eddie Nash
Neo Member
Anyone who thinks that touch screen buttons (with any kind of magical vibrator feedback, or without) is good/working way to play is just so wrong and have no idea of it.
examples of benefits of physical buttons:
- playing a game requires physical "borders" of buttons, aka your fingers know where the buttons are either by resting your fingers on the buttons or
- muscle memory(good idea where the buttons are without thinking) AND when player moves his fingers he knows when his fingers are on the right spot by his skin touching button edges.
-don't remember where buttons are? just move fingers along the controller and you find them, with on screen buttons only way is to look the display. (if you would slide your finger around in touch screen to find buttons = you would activate them by accident while physical buttons wont activate)
- Ability to click button with various speeds/forces. do I click it all the way down or just click it fast&lightly. remember ps2 analog buttons, 256 different states of force etc.
- depth of click/physical movement when pressing the button, it is impossible to mimic this with any kind of magical vibrator feedback.
playing mobile games that have buttons is just purely garbage. It is not "real" gaming, some games like angry birds work, but not more complex games.
It makes me mad to read this thread while so many just talk about things that they have no idea because they have heard about some haptic feedback and now are gurus of virtual buttons and think that it makes them comparable with normal buttons.
Easy to test:
1 Play some mario clone with phone and stream image to tv and try to play it without watching your phone.
2 Then play real mario with any console, even 8-bit nintendo.
Choose one that feels, works and is better method. No haptic thing can make touch controls be even in the same ball park as old school buttons.
I have maybe 10 different consoles, from nes to ps4+wii u being newest.
This control+display thing in wii u is 90% useless(few game types use it well and then it is good, like rabbids land is fun to play with it), if NX uses display in controller, maybe it is indeed for playing portable games, but even then buying extra controllers would cost too much (if) they all are portable console too.
I bet that IF nx uses display in controller, it is something similar that dreamcast had in mind, continue your game without the console or do some micro management etc.
I agree that physical buttons are essential for a controller, but how about this?
http://tactustechnology.com/
http://tactustechnology.com/technology/
Wouldn't Tactus be a great match for a controller like this? Instant physical buttons whenever you need them coming from the screen itself. It gives you tactile feedback and pressure measuring.
Btw, I know someone brought up this technology somewhere in this thread, but I tought this would be a good moment to bring it up again.
Wouldn't it solve the "physical VS virtual buttons" problem?
Fredrik
Member
Great mockup. And this got me thinking, if there are shoulder buttons and clickable sticks. How many more physical inputs do you really need? Lots of buttons don't really need to be physical imo. It's just the ones you're constantly mashing really, and maybe you can fit those on the shoulder buttons instead? Would take some time to get used to but it might be okay in the end I think.
This is my mock up.
Two physical sliders act as 2 analogue sticks, the buttons are virtual. But since they are in a fixed position relative to the sliders you don't have to look at the to know where they are all the time. There is haptic feedback to let you know that you pressed them ( kinda like the new macbook )
Not sure if this is NX related, but its a filing from earlier this year, seems to relate to multiple control inputs
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0352439.html
edit: Seems to be Smash Bros related, regarding local multiplayer with multiple screens. Nothing NX related really.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0352439.html
edit: Seems to be Smash Bros related, regarding local multiplayer with multiple screens. Nothing NX related really.
Candescence
Member
The Steam Controller proves otherwise, pretty much everyone agrees that the grip buttons are its best new feature, and then there's the Xbone Elite with the back paddles which everyone is salivating over...
Bony Manifesto
Member
Interesting that Masahiro Sakurai is listed as one of the inventors.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Oh god please Nintendo just give me regular console with decent specs. Let the games be innovative, not some wonky gamepad that no 3rd party will use after the launch games.
If this is another wiiU/wii, I'm out.
If this is another wiiU/wii, I'm out.
The game example is clearly Smash Bros. too...but with dogs.
Nostremitus
Member
Not in my experience. They are really bad, way too easy to trigger them just by gripping your controller.
During the "Modernizing Super Mario" interview Bloomberg asked Tezuka about the NX and he (cryptically) answered "we feel quite strongly about creating things that are in sync with the times".
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...er-mario-how-nintendo-has-reinvented-its-star
Take that as you will.
Is it not referring to the ability to use the 3DS as a controller for Smash?
Ah, sorry to be unclear. I don't mean back grips or back individual buttons. I mean more than one small button on the back of one side of a controller, like an ABXY layout on the back.
Yeah seems to be about sharing local multiplayer to multiple screens. I'll add a note to my original post.
Well, you're just wrong.
They're incredibly easy to remove and put back on, for those who have issues like yours. Alternatively you can program them to do nothing and save it to one of the two layouts, and switch them on or off that way. That's what I've done.
And for those games where it's advantageous to use the camera while performing button presses, they're brilliant.
Yeah I really hope this is a thing that catches on. Honestly one of the best things about the Steam Controller.
mumble mumble tablet mumble
Graphics Horse
Member
I would be up for a handheld that was made from 3 freeform screen elements that almost seamlessly slot together, two being clickable Steam controller like touchpad areas with subtle tactile markings. That should definity be acheivable, but I don't know if they could all share the same backlight or need one each.
Something like the original PSP prototype but with a screen everywhere. I'm not sure it's realistic to have tiny buttons with individual bezel-less screens but larger areas would work and could form the sides of the viewing area in a UMD shape, if they needed one edge of each screen to have a bezel.
Something like the original PSP prototype but with a screen everywhere. I'm not sure it's realistic to have tiny buttons with individual bezel-less screens but larger areas would work and could form the sides of the viewing area in a UMD shape, if they needed one edge of each screen to have a bezel.
Nostremitus
Member
So, I'm wrong about them being a bad idea in my experience because I'm able to turn them off and not use them? That's not a logical conclusion.
Also, if someone is talking about their personal experience, telling them they're just wrong means they are a liar. It implies that they are telling an untrue account of their own experience. I wasn't lying.
It also implies that you don't feel that the idea or experience even warrants conversation or discussion. You feel the need to shut it down without discussion because you're apparently so invested in your own opinion that others are threatening in some way. In that regard, you are just wrong.
In other words, there's no need for dismissive, defensive, or antagonistic responses. We were talking about buttons on a controller, I didn't insult you or anything.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
What I'm saying is that the NX will come with a 'classic' controller in the box, and still support using the hh NX as a gamepad, wiiU-style. Nintendo did hit some homeruns with the gamepad this gen, disregarding those without any chance for further iterations would be a clear loss for nintendo.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
If it works as advertised, it could be an interesting angle for them to take. You get the best layout for each game and can get rid of unused buttons.
valkillmore
Member
If it works as advertised, it could be an interesting angle for them to take. You get the best layout for each game and can get rid of unused buttons.
That looks so cool and futuristic. Probably wishful thinking.
that would be so sick
If it works as advertised, it could be an interesting angle for them to take. You get the best layout for each game and can get rid of unused buttons.
I like the design, but in practicality I can only see it being much more uncomfortable to use.
When I play with my 3ds it's already fairly uncomfortable with buttons. I feel like the lack of actually buttons to press would make it even less comfortable. Could it be possible to keep the same design but put physical buttons in the back so they don't obstruct the screen?
Nintendo are not going to have a no button design. There will be a dpad for example.
However the central pannel could easily measure 16:9 to display the main visual with obscurity.
People are also wrongly assuming these flat displays. I can see GameCube like tendrils underneath or to the side for some buttons/analogues.
Not at a PC to do a mock up; but what about controls that fold behind the single display? Or more importantly pull out on either side. That way you have grip even for a touch only game or situation but the same grip with controls for a controller game.
I've never bought into the customisable controls as;
A - Chocking parts
B - Its a complex and messy implementation
However the central pannel could easily measure 16:9 to display the main visual with obscurity.
People are also wrongly assuming these flat displays. I can see GameCube like tendrils underneath or to the side for some buttons/analogues.
Not at a PC to do a mock up; but what about controls that fold behind the single display? Or more importantly pull out on either side. That way you have grip even for a touch only game or situation but the same grip with controls for a controller game.
I've never bought into the customisable controls as;
A - Chocking parts
B - Its a complex and messy implementation
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Quite likely.
Refreshment.01
Member
In the first thread about free from displays, i made the following suggestion:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=146842235
refreshment.01 said:
Nintendo could potentially conceive the device just with the two emerging circle pads (or equivalent) and have the front of the device face button free. Basically the image from the patent with the triggers been those trackpad/wheel bumpers. For the people that want traditional inputs, transparent button overlays that can be attached to grooves on the bezel could be offered.
There are some interesting benefits if they ship the device like this:
1) The PCB would be a lot cleaner.
2) The device would have smaller phycial dimensions.
3) Thematic button overlays. N64, GC, SNES, NES which would be great a for a potential relaunch of a more robust back catalogue service.
4) The Device would look closer to a cellphone and offer a similar control experience. Giving Nintendo a chance to possibly expand their busyness to this type of user.
5) The interface will look a lot simpler and less "intimidating" for potential new users.
The button overlays can come equipped with a NFC chip, so the device knows exactly what overlay is using.
In the first thread about free from displays, i made the following suggestion:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=146842235
Nintendo could potentially conceive the device just with the two emerging circle pads (or equivalent) and have the front of the device face button free. Basically the image from the patent with the triggers been those trackpad/wheel bumpers. For the people that want traditional inputs, transparent button overlays that can be attached to grooves on the bezel could be offered.
There are some interesting benefits if they ship the device like this:
1) The PCB would be a lot cleaner.
2) The device would have smaller phycial dimensions.
3) Thematic button overlays. N64, GC, SNES, NES which would be great a for a potential relaunch of a more robust back catalogue service.
4) The Device would look closer to a cellphone and offer a similar control experience. Giving Nintendo a chance to possibly expand their busyness to this type of user.
5) The interface will look a lot simpler and less "intimidating" for potential new users.
The button overlays can come equipped with a NFC chip, so the device knows exactly what overlay is using.
Interesting concept. Certainly viable for Virtual Console games. I guess the only problem with regular game releases would be that unless these 'overlays' were free or included with games, you risk fragmenting the user base again with different input methods.
The overlays would be virtual and change depending on the game being played me thinks.
Candescence
Member
Refreshment said that the overlays are physical, not virtual. I imagine they'd be simple plastic things that the device recognizes through NFC, and touch areas under the buttons being pressed would instantly allow the screen to know which buttons are being pressed, and I doubt Nintendo would design such a system to not be very responsive. Same theory could be applied to a D-pad.
I do find the idea rather appealing, actually. Nintendo just needs to throw in as much intuitive functionality as they can on the back of the device (shoulders, scroll bumpers, grip buttons), and after that, provided that any number of simultaneous button inputs are possible (I'm pretty sure multi-touch screens have a limit to the number of touch inputs, but still), suddenly the face of the device is no longer restricted to built-in buttons. Nintendo and third parties can include all sorts of control setups, from classic control schemes to all sorts of new controller layouts. If they actually figured out to make a viable fight pad work with this idea, I'd be very impressed.
If Nintendo makes this idea work and it's responsive? I'd be all for it. There's still a good chance Nintendo might not do this, though, if they haven't even thought of it or can't make it work, but they have a habit of surprising us.
I do find the idea rather appealing, actually. Nintendo just needs to throw in as much intuitive functionality as they can on the back of the device (shoulders, scroll bumpers, grip buttons), and after that, provided that any number of simultaneous button inputs are possible (I'm pretty sure multi-touch screens have a limit to the number of touch inputs, but still), suddenly the face of the device is no longer restricted to built-in buttons. Nintendo and third parties can include all sorts of control setups, from classic control schemes to all sorts of new controller layouts. If they actually figured out to make a viable fight pad work with this idea, I'd be very impressed.
If Nintendo makes this idea work and it's responsive? I'd be all for it. There's still a good chance Nintendo might not do this, though, if they haven't even thought of it or can't make it work, but they have a habit of surprising us.
I understand, I just don't see the need for physical overlays recognized through an NFC connection when the controller could just project an ever changing virtual overlay depending on the game being played if we're assuming a free form display is in the cards. I could see them selling various themes or stickers (virtually again) for the controller separately though. Similar to the themes sold for the 3DS.
Graphics Horse
Member
These things?
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Touchscreen shit is going to be DOA. Please Nintendo Don't come with stuff nobody is asking for. They should keep it optional. God please let it soon be E3.
Refreshment.01
Member
i'll use these two replys to further explain:
The other overlays would be mostly for coolness and the nostalgic factor. For example, you could use this flexibility to evoke how playing these systems felt exactly. In the case of GBC/GBA it would be pretty nice to put the Dpad and Face buttons, then have part of the NX screen render a high quality texture that imitates those system's surfaces. Imagine having a convincing frame and the purple of the GameBoy Color or GBA with similar physical inputs, when playing those retro games.
Now for the case of both the N64 and GC the overlays would be more functional and not just merly for coolness. If they go to the extent of porting Virtual Boy games you could buy an extra Dpad anf face button to have the exact same feeling of controlling it XD
For once, braking a potential psychological barrier. With this they could have a device that mainly looks like an Smartphone with just two circles coming out from the screen. Instead of something with 10 buttons all over the place. im not saying that this would be a magical cure that would convert the smartphone user base but it might ease a potential user into adapting to the device.
Second, if the overlay concept is executed well enough then you have the more traditional Nintendo gamer in their confort zone. So these guys won't feel left out.
Third, a symmetrical user interface. Between the swappable overlays and virtual buttons allowed by the touch screen, basically every game can offer a lefty handed option.
There's no risk on fragmenting the user base. If they go with a concept like this then they'll just need to include a Dpad and a 4 face button overlay. With those 2 extra inputs they can handle pretty much anything.
The other overlays would be mostly for coolness and the nostalgic factor. For example, you could use this flexibility to evoke how playing these systems felt exactly. In the case of GBC/GBA it would be pretty nice to put the Dpad and Face buttons, then have part of the NX screen render a high quality texture that imitates those system's surfaces. Imagine having a convincing frame and the purple of the GameBoy Color or GBA with similar physical inputs, when playing those retro games.
Now for the case of both the N64 and GC the overlays would be more functional and not just merly for coolness. If they go to the extent of porting Virtual Boy games you could buy an extra Dpad anf face button to have the exact same feeling of controlling it XD
Like i said previously. There are some genuinely compelling reasons to design the device this way.
For once, braking a potential psychological barrier. With this they could have a device that mainly looks like an Smartphone with just two circles coming out from the screen. Instead of something with 10 buttons all over the place. im not saying that this would be a magical cure that would convert the smartphone user base but it might ease a potential user into adapting to the device.
Second, if the overlay concept is executed well enough then you have the more traditional Nintendo gamer in their confort zone. So these guys won't feel left out.
Third, a symmetrical user interface. Between the swappable overlays and virtual buttons allowed by the touch screen, basically every game can offer a lefty handed option.
Candescence
Member
Well, that only makes the idea even more compelling if you put it like that, provided that it works.
Though, some people will still inevitably complain that the device/controller isn't a dualshock carbon copy, really,
Though, some people will still inevitably complain that the device/controller isn't a dualshock carbon copy, really,
Eddie Nash
Neo Member
I agree. That could be great if done right. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Btw, I've always hated the playstation controller. It's unconfortable, specially for people with big hands like me and I can't help but feel the left analog stick should be at the top, not at the bottom.
Candescence
Member
Again, though, they may not necessarily have even thought of the idea, though it's quite possible for them to come to that conclusion as an extension of using the touch-screen for virtual buttons, so who knows. Nintendo probably has some surprises up their sleeves, at least. God knows how long they've been working on this concept.
What we DO know is that Nintendo knows how important physical, tactile buttons are (which Iwata had stated, and I doubt the people he was working with on engineering it didn't feel the same way), so NX will have physical face buttons in some form. Virtual buttons will likely instead be secondary functions.
What we DO know is that Nintendo knows how important physical, tactile buttons are (which Iwata had stated, and I doubt the people he was working with on engineering it didn't feel the same way), so NX will have physical face buttons in some form. Virtual buttons will likely instead be secondary functions.
He mentioned attaching the overlays to grooves in the bezel, so don't think he was talking virtual.
The patent certainly points to virtual overlays, sure.
Edit BEAT!
Ok I see where you are coming from now, that makes more sense. Yeah would certainly be a cool concept. The technology already exists so it's feasible at least.
Refreshment.01
Member
This of course makes a lot of sense and it's probably what will happen. But the concept as presented in the patent is at odds with the use of lots of "static/permanent" physical buttons.
i mean the more "static" physcial buttons Nintendo sticks out of the screen, the more pointless the use of the Free Form Screen becomes. The handheld would be like the non sensical mocks up that surfaced once the Sharp deal was announced.
On the other hand, it makes tons of sense for them to keep the 2 circle pads in there, since out of the all physical inputs in a present controller, the type of feedback they provide it's the hardest one to replicate by other means.
As i see it, what the Free Form Screen as precented in the figure allows is a potential increase in simplicity, a more streamlined device and make virtual buttons and dynamic UIs more functional.
How many extra buttons in the face of the controller you guys think it would be reasonable to include in the device showed in the patent?
Edit: To be clear, im talking about physcial fase buttons. Not the triggers, since those are really intuitive to use. And if they go wih the Bumper Wheels, the usability of the input system of the device will skyrocket.
Refreshment.01
Member
"Virtualizing" buttons and having dynamic UI is making things more inviting and intuitive. It's one of the main interface aspects of the DS family and this would be an expantion of that concept. To explain:
You would only have 2 very flushed physical inputs (like Circle Pads and thumbsticks) at the face of the device, something like an evolved version of the potentiometers present in the New 3DS C stick could work well with the device in the patent. The reasons to go with C stick like input instead of plain thumbsticks is because of the low profile and less surface area for operation and manipulation.
The rest of the UI at the face would be self explanatory virtualized buttons that changed in context in relation to the ingame actions. This increases intuitiveness since it would prevent confusion and the need to memorize every input.
They could also opt to use physical transparent overlays that surrounded the "C sticks" and retain the best of both virtual and physical buttons.
Graphics Horse
Member
odd bump
Idk about csticks, can they really be evolved?
Edit: what about a hemispherical stick that's mostly under the surface? Like a rubber trackball but on a spring. The text goes at some length to talk about isolating intended stick inputs from accidental screen inputs, which shows consideration for very low profile sticks.
Idk about csticks, can they really be evolved?
Edit: what about a hemispherical stick that's mostly under the surface? Like a rubber trackball but on a spring. The text goes at some length to talk about isolating intended stick inputs from accidental screen inputs, which shows consideration for very low profile sticks.
maybe you can pop the screen and make the gel leak out. I don't think it's ideal anyway, can't do multiple layouts so might as well be permanent for a handheld.
Refreshment.01
Member
Why do you find the bump odd? This is the most relevant thread for actual discussion of NIntendo's Next handheld. It has a potential technology use and how it could actually work.
Regarding about the C stick evolving. There are many things to consider:
One of the things that limit it's usability somewhat as seen in the 3DS now, it's the size and the top area. If Nintendo used a more traditional top surface like the one in the Circle Pad then the thing would respond better.
Like i said my reasons to consider this are that it takes less space and can be quite close to the screen surface. This is important so your thumb can easily travel to the four cardinal directions around it. While the C stick itself acts as a "Home" position for reference. Or in the case of using a physical button overlay, it won't get in the way when you need to press those buttons.
The other reason to consider it for the device, it's because it doesn't displace much, which is both a downside and an advanatage. The positive thing for something like in the patent, is that you need less space to operate and thus more screen surface can be used for other aspects.
Finally, even with less precision than a circle pad or a stick maybe it ends up been good enough for controlling character and broad camera movement. The lesser accuracy can be compensated by the use of motion sensors, which in the end are more accurate than a dual thumbstick setup. And this hybrid control method has become quite popular in NIntendo games.
After hearing Refreshment.01, it actually makes perfect sense.
This could be the real evolution of Nintendo DS.
Actually, this would be perfect for the Wii U. Throw away the giant and freaky Wii U pad.
You have this small portable console with no buttons, just triggers and the analog sticks. Everything is touch screen.
If you're playing a tradional games, just plug over the screen the ''4 buttons'' style attachment.
If you're playing a game that requires only two buttons, either you plug this ''4 buttons'' attachment or a special ''two buttons'' designed with bigger buttons.
If these attachments are transparents, the touch screen will creat colors underneath these attachments to create a special effect like you were playing with gamecube or a SNES controller.
That seems really smart. If these attachmentes stick on the touch screen with magnets, in a way that theses buttons don't fall off the screen, it will be perfect.
On the other hand, people who don't care about buttons will be free to use only the touch screen.
That's seems to be a really great idea. The problem is to see all of this working accordingly.
This could be the real evolution of Nintendo DS.
Actually, this would be perfect for the Wii U. Throw away the giant and freaky Wii U pad.
You have this small portable console with no buttons, just triggers and the analog sticks. Everything is touch screen.
If you're playing a tradional games, just plug over the screen the ''4 buttons'' style attachment.
If you're playing a game that requires only two buttons, either you plug this ''4 buttons'' attachment or a special ''two buttons'' designed with bigger buttons.
If these attachments are transparents, the touch screen will creat colors underneath these attachments to create a special effect like you were playing with gamecube or a SNES controller.
That seems really smart. If these attachmentes stick on the touch screen with magnets, in a way that theses buttons don't fall off the screen, it will be perfect.
On the other hand, people who don't care about buttons will be free to use only the touch screen.
That's seems to be a really great idea. The problem is to see all of this working accordingly.
Graphics Horse
Member
Nvm I am happy to see it bumped! I agree a smaller, lower stick works best with the concept.
The thing that interests me most is the way the console version will work in relation to the handheld, I find it hard to imagine they would go for two completely different schemes, but controller with a screen might not be an option this time, and would change the dynamic if you had to look back and forth on console compared to a single screen handheld. (an ironic reversal of the situation with DS)
I think one possibility is a circular ring on the surface of the screen about 20mm around each stick, so you have a tactile sense of where your thumb is relative to the stick. Console could just have circular touch pads with sticks in the middle.
One thing this and other patents show is an interest in vibrating the screen for feedback, which is something,I expect them to do, possibly by mounting it on piezo actuators, together with pressure sensors that can determine whether you're touching, clicking (or even 'force touching') and give you a,realistic click feedback like the Macbook touchpad.
The thing that interests me most is the way the console version will work in relation to the handheld, I find it hard to imagine they would go for two completely different schemes, but controller with a screen might not be an option this time, and would change the dynamic if you had to look back and forth on console compared to a single screen handheld. (an ironic reversal of the situation with DS)
I think one possibility is a circular ring on the surface of the screen about 20mm around each stick, so you have a tactile sense of where your thumb is relative to the stick. Console could just have circular touch pads with sticks in the middle.
One thing this and other patents show is an interest in vibrating the screen for feedback, which is something,I expect them to do, possibly by mounting it on piezo actuators, together with pressure sensors that can determine whether you're touching, clicking (or even 'force touching') and give you a,realistic click feedback like the Macbook touchpad.
Eduardboon
Member
No Doritos anymore
Fourth Storm
Member
I think the user's intuition would work well enough without this type of solution, especially if Nintendo put some notches for the cardinal directions on the stick surface, as many analog sticks feature today. I don't expect many games to use the touch screen surrounding the sticks for more than 4 virtual buttons. These same 4 buttons on each side could be easily mapped to the very tactile dpad and face buttons on the console controller (which would still feature a touch pad in my envisioning).
I do think Nintendo go ahead and put at least one physical button on either side of the handheld, though. If we take a look at the Free Form patent, it serves to give us some insight into the inventors' thought process. The reasons for the innovation are:
- Increasing screen size without increasing over all device size
- Providing a sense of immersion by hiding all inputs with your thumbs and having the screen shape resemble a human FOV