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[IAmRandom31]

It just seems to me like every Day a new indie is announced for PS4. Its impressive!

Along with truckloads of announcements at Gamescom, E3, TGS and recently the PSX show. With announcements in between everything.

At this point I have close to 40 games on my buy list for 2015. 40! WTF

Sony has done a fine job turning the PS4 into well .. the first steam machine kind of

 

[Toki767]

Have we actually seen any exceptions be made that weren't developers using the loophole of signing their games with Sony before the parity clause was officially announced?

I figure Outlast/Contrast/Olli Olli/etc were games that fell under that loophole and were not actually an individual exception.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

X1 has more indie games than posted. Space Engineers is exclusive to consoles I believe as well as Ori and Cuphead to name a few.


PS4 does have more indie games though.

More is putting it lightly. Ps4 absolutely demolishes Xbox when it comes to andy. I think this has been something that I've been saying even prior to the launches of both respective platforms. Which is the main reason that it's easier to recommended as a primary platform when it comes to the console space. This arbitrary argument about PC versions and all that makes no difference when the demographics are so different when it comes to console and PC. That's why having these amazing games is only going to benefit everybody. Especially Xbox gamers but this parity clauses only but one of the problems.

 

[Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah]

Is No Man's Sky an indie? Just wondering if it will ever appear on XB1 since it's coming on PS4 first. But I don't know if considered an indie game.

Doesnt matter. Parity clause effects AAA games too *cough rayman cough*

The policy exists to bully the small developers to prioritize Xbox first. Very transparent policy.

All developers

 

[Amir0x]

You're arguing that I trust or love Phil Spencer? That's not a road you want to go down. I suspect you're replying to my posts from a position where you believe I'm either defending or making excuses for MS and the clause, when that couldn't be further from the truth.

And yes, there are exceptions. That the games in the OP haven't been given exceptions is besides the point. Those games haven't been released, when they are out on PS4 and the developer can focus on porting the game to X1, that's when they'll announce it and that's when Spencer will give them the exception that many games have already gotten.

No, I'm replying to your argument that you're pulling from thin air, which is that you magically believe Phil Spencer is making exceptions whenever someone asks which is factually not the case.

The games in the OP are a sliver of the games announced for PS4 and not XBO. Literally, a snapshot. And the even bigger indicator is just how many devs announced they're working on PS4 games and not XBO games. You can't get exceptions if you're not even a developer on the platform, can you? Many of these developers made the choice partially because of the parity clause. Your entire argument hinges on pointing out the few exceptions and saying "SEE!? SEE!? MOST OF THE REST OF THE UNANNOUNCED GAMES ARE GETTING EXCEPTIONS TOO LATER". That is your entire argument in a nutshell, because there is no other support for it.

Again, you're just in a dream world. A true fantasy land. Tons of indie games are out on PS4 already which have not only not had XBO versions announced, but their respective developers have moved on to their next products. What are they waiting for, Miles? Right. They're waiting for Phil Spencer to stop being a monumental asshole.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

It just seems to me like every Day a new indie is announced for PS4. Its impressive!

Yeah some of my most anticipated games are small downloadable. Hotline 2,Hyper Light,Assault Android Cactus and Axiom Verge to name a few. Skytorn at PSX from the Towerfall devs also looks really good.

 

[LycanXIII]

One less indie title means 1 more chance of retail games for gold

I'm happy about this, I can't be the only the one who doesn't give indie games my time of day, even the games for gold titles I don't download

Yep, it's definitely the number of indie games that effect the G4G choices. Thankfully the PS4 doesn't have indie games, so they got Injustice this month.

 

[Amused]

This thread really turned into shitpost heaven quickly with all these people refusing to tackle the topic at hand to wage their console warz and opinion pieces on indies.

Great post about an important issue. Xbox team should react, for everyones sake.

 

[justsomeguy]

An interesting post, and I agree in general that the parity clause is hurting more than it is helping.

However I recall in one of the Phil Spencer interviews that he said that they would work with indie devs who could show they had financial reasons why it is impracticable to release on XB1 at the same time, and that is why we have already seen games like contrast, etc come out later. OP did not really discuss this. It seems reasonable to me if true.

It didn't sound like OP was even willing to try... I think at a minimum OP should be willing to pick up a phone over leaving money on the table.

I know asking these questions will likely only draw fire, but I think people need to look critically at all sides of issues like this

Just accidentally deleted a post I was writing but basically made the same points...

- Worthy debate
- Great post
- generally parity clause causing pain
- Bit odd that OP hasn't even tried to talk to ms about exemption especially with such a good reason
- No data here about how easy or hard it is to GET the exemption, not withstanding the fact that in an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary

 

[Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule]

Said no more playing games we'll be counting them.. amazing

*go to play smash*

 

[Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah]

Along with truckloads of announcements at Gamescom, E3, TGS and recently the PSX show. With announcements in between everything.

At this point I have close to 40 games on my buy list for 2015. 40! WTF

Sony has done a fine job turning the PS4 into well .. the first steam machine kind of

I think you mean Ouya

Nothing like a Steam machine

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Some people don't care about indie games.

If some people are that dense, they shouldn't be contributing to discussion. I'm sorry, but I really don't want to talk about video games with you.

 

[Kar]

Some people don't care about indie games.

People who dont care about indie game probably picture oldschool games (16bit, sprites, 2D etc) when they think "indie games". But I doubt those people dont care about No Man's Sky or Star Citizen.

 

[chubigans]

Have we actually seen any exceptions be made that weren't developers using the loophole of signing their games with Sony before the parity clause was officially announced?

I figure Outlast/Contrast/Olli Olli/etc were games that fell under that loophole and were not actually an individual exception.

A likely one is Pure Pool (announced in December past the launch window) and the clear one is OlliOlli (way past the clause loophole) which is also being released for multiple platforms on the same day. I think Stick it to the Man may be an exception as well.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

People are really happy about getting Super Time Force and Shovel Knight on the PS4.

Hell, I have an Xbox One, 3DS and Wii U (aka the means to play both games) and yet I'm excited that they're coming to PS4/Vita, as that's where I've been wishing to play them since they were announced.

For me, despite them being 'old games', they're certainly key releases in the PS4/Vita calendar for me in 2015.

 

[xxracerxx]

Is this a Xbox One only clause? I don't recall hearing about it before last year.

Holy shit, you should really read the OP as it is really informative and answers this question.

 

[3rdamention]

When I first heard about that clause, it felt like something that was created not to improve the quality and selection of XBO indie games, but rather to effect Playstation offerings. They thought that most indie devs would want to, or perhaps HAVE to release the games on both systems, and this policy would lead to release parity.

Delaying a release of one version so that multiple version can release at the same time doesn't look like it's as feasible as many think.

Nice write up Chubs.

You are correct, it is NOT as feasible as many think. A majority of Indie games are made by a small group of independent developers who do not have the time and money to release 2 versions (PS4 and Xbox One versions) at the same time.


So they create one version first, to get it on the market, make some money, to help fund the next version. If you want to release on Xbox One, you are FORCED to release that version first, or release it at the same time as the PS4 version.


Because of time and money, many devs are simply releasing on PS4 first, so they aren't forced to release on the Xbox One at the same time. Now, I am not aware of how the wording in the parity clause works, but I know in the past, Developers with a contract already, weren't bound by the parity clause.


What about developers going forward? What happens to all the devs that are releasing on PS4 first? Is there some type of penalty because of the parity clause? I would assume Microsoft wants all of these games on Xbox ONe, but it is pretty obvious that some of these contracts on newer Indie Games have been finalized long since the parity clause went into effect.

 

[DieH@rd]

Even if MS or i should say, Phil Spencer remove parity clause, damage for indies are already done on Xbone. Indie developer will choose PS4 over Xbone first when they have a choice.

Indie dev would probably also choose PS4 because it is leading by a lot in worldwide sales. Here on GAF we like to focus on NPDs and US market where PS4 is leading by only 1 million consoles, but internationally, its almost 2:1.

Install base matters, especially since Sony confirmed that 90%+ of PS4 consoles have access to the Internet.

 

[GobFather]

It depends on who what your focus is IMO. If you only or mainly focus on PS4 then it may seem that way.

Give me an example of balance from a neutral standpoint...as you stated.

 

[Seanspeed]

I buy indies for pennies on Steam sales. I could not care less if they ever show up, likely overpriced, on my Xbox.

Not everybody has a gaming PC, though. This affects a lot of Microsoft's customers and puts developers in frustrating situations like described in the OP.

 

[ZedIndyLil]

Really interesting thread. As a casual observer of these things, though, I unfortunately don't see a huge downside for MS (as opposed to, of course, developers and consumers) to continue this dumb policy. If an indie game takes off on PS4/PC, they can just create an "exception" for it.

TBH, though, I don't see much of an upside for MS from it either, as they clearly are not the dominant console player and can't get away with strongarm tactics. Which I guess means the policy makes no sense either way.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I've always found it strange.

I mean, I kind of get his 1st class citizen thought process, but surely it's better to actually have a game - even if it's late, than to not have it at all?

Unless they still have their heads in the 360 generation where the games that eventually came to PS3 6 months to a year later sold so badly and were met with such little fanfare that it wasn't worth the effort? so maybe they don't want the One to be seen as getting scraps no one cares about?

I dunno, that's all I can think of.

 

[chubigans]

Yep, it's definitely the number of indie games that effect the G4G choices. Thankfully the PS4 doesn't have indie games, so they got Injustice this month.

bwahaha

Just accidentally deleted a post I was writing but basically made the same points...

- Worthy debate
- Great post
- generally parity clause causing pain
- Bit odd that OP hasn't even tried to talk to ms about exemption especially with such a good reason
- No data here about how easy or hard it is to GET the exemption, not withstanding the fact that in an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary

Honestly, the reason I haven't picked up the phone and call is because it feels slimy as shit to get a free pass when there's so many indies that are hamstrung by this clause.

I'm not faulting any developer who tries to get the free pass option, not at all. It's just my personal feelings on this. I feel like if indies band together we can put down this stupid clause for everyone, instead of all of us separately trying to play our luck.

 

[Toki767]

A likely one is Pure Pool (announced in December past the launch window) and the clear one is OlliOlli (way past the clause loophole) which is also being released for multiple platforms on the same day. I think Stick it to the Man may be an exception as well.

I'm not sure about those games to be honest. Just because they were announced after the loophole doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't already signed before the loophole date.

 

[p3tran]

Does this mean PC wins? I mean you guys have heard about steam sales and humble bundle right?

Nah, who am I kidding. This is fanboy list wars bullshit. Xbox Done amirite??

yeap, xbone is x-done!

 

[HighResTomato]

Giving one outlet exclusivity on your product and expect their competitor to be all jolly and jumping for you to port it over later is bullshit.

Me I personally don't care for 95% of the indie games out there but I understand where Spencer is coming from. Also people expecting this to change in the event that MS drops the clause are delusional. Indies will still do what they do, get money for the exclusive periods, then eat their cake on the other platform as well.

 

[xxracerxx]

You are correct, it is NOT as feasible as many think. A majority of Indie games are made by a small group of independent developers who do not have the time and money to release 2 versions (PS4 and Xbox One versions) at the same time.

So they create one version first, to get it on the market, make some money, to help fund the next version. If you want to release on Xbox One, you are FORCED to release that version first, or release it at the same time as the PS4 version.

Yup, and the funny thing is you do not see many PS4 owners bitching about getting games well after the release of the XBO versions. Games are games and when they come they are just as fresh to certain people as the original release date. Fuck that first class bullshit, it is an awful mindset.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Developers like JAW who were pretty clear about their game never coming to X1 until they announced it was?

And of course they can still come to the X1. Spencer will just continue to make exception after exception. Just like he did for Outlast, Contrast, Stick to the Man, etc. We can argue he's only made a few, but the point is that as soon as a developer approaches him asking for one, he'll say yes.

Having to directly appeal to the boss of Xbox to revoke the clause is just indescribably pathetic, in my opinion. It's just an obstruction for a lot of games that will never release on the platform as a result.

 

[Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah]

Hell, I have an Xbox One, 3DS and Wii U (aka the means to play both games) and yet I'm excited that they're coming to PS4/Vita, as that's where I've been wishing to play them since they were announced.

For me, despite them being 'old games', they're certainly key releases in the PS4/Vita calendar for me in 2015.

Huh? Why?

 

[hohoXD123]

Not everybody has a gaming PC, though. This affects a lot of Microsoft's customers and puts developers in frustrating situations like described in the OP.

You don't need a gaming PC for most indies. But yeah, if you don't care about the indie games themselves, at least care about the situation the indie devs are in.

 

[Impeccable]

I'm still amazed that people not only defend this clause but seemingly support it.

Complete and utter blind faith in Microsoft at all costs. It's scary when you have great developers screaming this is an issue and outlining why and gamers turn around and go, "So wot m8"

 

[IAmRandom31]

I think you mean Ouya

Nothing like a Steam machine

Nah, much more like a steam machine considering the Ouya has no power to it really. Can't handle modern games. So i stand with my original statement lol

 

[3rdamention]

An interesting post, and I agree in general that the parity clause is hurting more than it is helping.

However I recall in one of the Phil Spencer interviews that he said that they would work with indie devs who could show they had financial reasons why it is impracticable to release on XB1 at the same time, and that is why we have already seen games like contrast, etc come out later. OP did not really discuss this. It seems reasonable to me if true.

It didn't sound like OP was even willing to try, which suggests to me that maybe OP doesn't actually have a financial reason not to release both at the same time. Or if OP does, then I think at a minimum OP should be willing to pick up a phone over leaving money on the table.

I am not saying the clause isn't partly at fault in OP's position, but OP has some blame as well. Is it impossible for OP to pick a different engine, that wouldn't have involved sitting on the free XB1 dev kit for 6 months? Can OP demonstrate while it is financially impossible to release both at once? Is OP more interested in getting free attention by blaming the parity clause?

I know asking these questions will likely only draw fire, but I think people need to look critically at all sides of issues like this before jumping on the easy bandwagon.

I personally think, based off OP's claims, that MS's best option is to allow indie devs to buy dev kits and release whenever they want. If a dev wants a free dev kit, then they should be willing to agree to a parity clause. I think most people should agree that it seems wrong for indie devs to get free dev kits, then choose to give the other platform preferential treatment when they don't have a demonstrable financial inability to release on both at once.

Contrast was a PS4 Launch title for PSPlus. It was very clear in the beginning that companies that already had contracts before the parity clause, were free to release on the console they wanted. Contrast would have already had that contract in place with Sony, so MS couldn't force the Devs to release on Xbox One first or at the same time as the PS4 version.


I am wondering, out loud really, what about all these new devs who are choosing to release on PS4 first. There have been a lot of new Indie Titles announced the past few months, I am sure these contracts were completed long since the Parity Clause was revealed. What happens to them moving forward? I know Microsoft wants these games on the Xbox ONe, is there some type of penalty of some sorts since they didn't release on Xbox One first or at the same time?

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

A likely one is Pure Pool (announced in December past the launch window) and the clear one is OlliOlli (way past the clause loophole) which is also being released for multiple platforms on the same day. I think Stick it to the Man may be an exception as well.

Outlast? There's actually been quite a few that I noticed pop up on the Xbox Store that I had seen on PS4 far earlier. I"m not sure what gave these games exceptions but it could be that MS loosens the reigns for the "bigger" indie games?

It seems like they're effectively acting like a nightclub bouncer at the moment.

 

[PseudoKirby]

No company should be able to say "you cant release your game on our console unless its coming first" without them being the publisher.

MS should know better.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Give me an example of balance from a neutral standpoint...as you stated.

Pretty much any game that gets announced for PC gets devalued as a console game. Especially console exclusives. A great example is Titanfall.

 

[Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah]

Nah, much more like a steam machine considering the Ouya has no power to it really. Can't handle modern games. So i stand with my original statement lol

.... Sure...

I dont think you know what Valve's Goal with the steam machine was

 

[chubigans]

I'm not sure about those games to be honest. Just because they were announced after the loophole doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't already signed before the loophole date.

That's a good point actually, I was only going by official announcements but you could definitely be right.

 

[xxracerxx]

Huh? Why?

Why? Because they are fantastic games and more people can play them now. The games are not suddenly shit because they are releasing on PS4 6+ months after the initial release.

Why are you so baffled by that?

 

[Toki767]

You don't need a gaming PC for most indies. But yeah, if you don't care about the indie games themselves, at least care about the situation the indie devs are in.

The thing people seem to not realize is that most indie games have come a long way in terms of production values. You don't need gaming PC, but you do need something at least a little decent. You aren't going to be playing No Man's Sky on a crappy PC.

 

[watership]

Holy shit, you should really read the OP as it is really informative and answers this question.

You have a habit of giving me this sort of response. Do you have to come across this way? You don't have to be so hostile at all. I scanned the OP because I was rushing to a meeting then I posted here after reading a few comments and was just discussing it.

 

[justsomeguy]

bwahaha



Honestly, the reason I haven't picked up the phone and call is because it feels slimy as shit to get a free pass when there's so many indies that are hamstrung by this clause.

I'm not faulting any developer who tries to get the free pass option, not at all. It's just my personal feelings on this. I feel like if indies band together we can put down this stupid clause for everyone, instead of all of us separately trying to play our luck.

Thanks for the reply. Did you see my message earlier in thread? Would REALLY appreciate your view.

My deleted post tried to draw a clear line between the general case and your specific case. You could have still written the post with your own exemption but given an insight into how ridiculously easy or hard it is to get.

However I get why you want the solidarity with others, no criticism from me on that front.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Yup, and the funny thing is you do not see many PS4 owners bitching about getting games well after the release of the XBO versions. Games are games and when they come they are just as fresh to certain people as the original release date. Fuck that first class bullshit, it is an awful mindset.

I don't think it's dumb to want games released at the same time on your system as others.

It's just Microsoft is going about it the way.

 

[SerTapTap]

Jesus christ, I knew it was bad, but not this bad. I can't believe that parity clause bullshit still exists and quite frankly I'm extremely glad most indies are just skipping xbox altogether rather than following MS' clause. It needs to die as soon as possible and devs not respecting it is the fastest way for that to happen.

 

[pastrami]

Great writeup and here's how it looks to me, as an outsider.

Microsoft thinks they are in a position to set the rules for developers. You want in on Microsoft's platform? You have to play by their rules.

Sony seems like they will bend every rule for developers. You want in on Sony's platform? Tell them what you need them to do.

This partiy clause needs to go and everyone who tried to turn this into a console war should be ashamed.

 

[Caronte]

If some people are that dense, they shouldn't be contributing to discussion. I'm sorry, but I really don't want to talk about video games with you.

Huh? I never said I didn't care about them. I was just giving a reason why some people say that the 'PS4 has no games', not that I think like that.

 

[FonkyByNature]

Well i have both the XB1 and PS4 and the difference in indies support is nuts, especially with the Playstation Experience weekend. I also like the fact that people at Playstation are very open to have all kind of games on their platform, almost no exceptions, even the cross play with pc players shows how open they are which is the future imo. I like that.

I don't game on PC so for me this is awesome news as there's many games i had no idea i was interested in that i am now. Killing Floor 2 for example looks like a blast ! and Shovel Knight... can't wait for this one !

 

[GobFather]

Pretty much any game that gets announced for PC gets devalued as a console game. Especially console exclusives. A great example is Titanfall.

Ah makes sense. Thanks

 

[Dragonborn]

Wasn't there a six week period this year where not a single X1 game released? While the narrative has somehow gained strength, the X1 doesn't actually have more games. Hell, it's not even remotely close. And that disparity will continue to grow as the PS4 continues to dominate and MS is still in la la land thinking they have the same leverage they did last gen

 

[Crayon]

When I first heard about that clause, it felt like something that was created not to improve the quality and selection of XBO indie games, but rather to effect Playstation offerings.

I agree with this Fork. It's an aggressive act that has backfired and is snowballing.

The problem with having less games than sony now is only the short term effect. We don't know where the next big thing is going to come from. Maintaining veiled hostility towards the vulnerable community of young developers may just come back to bite you.

It's not like you can just sit back, survey the market, and buy whatever hits it big for 2.5 billion dollars. Right?