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343i Acknowledges Halo 5 Storytelling Mistake, Will Double Down on Master Chief Focus

Gator86

Member
This right here. Halo 5 could've been a game about Chief going to find Blue Team and them remembering what their early years together were like, training on Reach, while Locke (if they still wanted to include him) could be recruiting Osiris. Easy way to draw a comparison between the values each generation of Spartan prioritizes and get to know characters better.

This... sounds vastly superior to Halo 5.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
This right here. Halo 5 could've been a game about Chief going to find Blue Team and them remembering what their early years together were like, training on Reach, while Locke (if they still wanted to include him) could be recruiting Osiris. Easy way to draw a comparison between the values each generation of Spartan prioritizes and get to know characters better.

The problem with this is you essentially have a game which has no plot moving forward, it's a "getting the band together" montage.

I'm pretty sure that was not a retcon as myself and many fans theorized that to be the case (the logic plague was another theory) considering the events of Halo 3 and Halo 4. More than likely it was just another incident of 343i neglecting to bring it up in-game.

I don't think it's a retcon either, it's a way to get the whiny fans to shut up. "Uh, here's some stuff you can head canon rationalize to mean that the 'evil' Cortana isn't the 'real' Cortana."
 

Rymuth

Member
I think the idea that Halo 4 sexualized Cortana in excess compared to previous games isn't a coherent opinion.
You have the franchise director saying she's using her bodacious body to overpower her enemies.

Frank/Stinkles said:
The reason she chooses to appear that way "is to attract and demand attention. And she does it to put people off so that they're on their guard when talking to her and she has the upper hand in those conversations."

tumblr_nxep1puiwv1ufs4gzo1_500.png
 

Outrun

Member
The problem with this is you essentially have a game which has no plot moving forward, it's a "getting the band together" montage.

Yeah, the flashback sequence needs to have relevance to the present predicament.

Frank... if you ever do a flashback, do OG King of the Hill with kid John-117 beating down on other challengers.
 

Trup1aya

Member
The problem with this is you essentially have a game which has no plot moving forward, it's a "getting the band together" montage.

He didn't propose a plot. Obviously, there'd be a central conflict that is relevant to the events that take place during the ensemble building.
 

Admodieus

Member
This would have been amazing. How is it a fucking neogaf poster can come up with a better idea than 343.

So discouraging.

I feel like what I stated was an obvious direction to take the franchise and would've rewarded extended universe fans who wanted to see the other Spartan IIs since they were introduced in Fall of Reach. Not sure why we got what we got.

Happy to consult on future plots, 343.


edit:

The problem with this is you essentially have a game which has no plot moving forward, it's a "getting the band together" montage.

Tie in the Covenant Civil War and say there's a new Prophet threatening to unite them again. Maybe Blue team can repurpose their original plan from Fall of Reach to go and kidnap a Prophet. It's not that hard, guys!
 

Gestault

Member
You have the franchise director saying she's using her bodacious body to overpower her enemies.

Someone was lamenting how her design was heavily sexualized in 5 compared to the previous games. I pointed out that the actual semiotics of the game don't support that, and that a more realistic naked human figure isn't the same thing as sexualized.
 

xam3l

Member
That will surely help and fix all the other issues that people had with Halo 5's mediocre campaign.



They already retconned that in a recent book:

The Cortana in Halo 5 is not actually the real Cortana, but one rampant fragment that got split during the fight against the Didact in Halo 4.

343i is a master at this. Several important aspects of the games are hidden in books, comics, novels, movies, etc. etc. That's why I also think that them acknowledging the Storytelling mistake won't help them.

Here is also an other lovely quote from Bonnie Ross:



So, even less Story in the actual game and more Story in transmedia. That will surely help.

That quote from Bonnie Ross triggers me so much.

If that is the mindset why care about a campaing? Why not mae Halo MP Season X from now on?

Feels like such a betrayal for its massive fanbase, making the Gamers go after other medium.
 

E92 M3

Member
2 or 3 games later and they're still having trouble understanding basic concepts of Halo. No one gave a shit about anyone except Chief.
 

Zeta Oni

Member
I feel like what I stated was an obvious direction to take the franchise and would've rewarded extended universe fans who wanted to see the other Spartan IIs since they were introduced in Fall of Reach. Not sure why we got what we got.

Happy to consult on future plots, 343 ��

When you look at the bigger picture, things start to get even odder:

-We have the story itself, which is just BAD.

-We have the marketing for the game, and the massive differences between what Hunt the Truth set up and what Halo 5 delivered.

-Despite there being 3 years between games, Halo 5 launched with a significant lack of longtime features, modes, and maps, that were then spread out and released over the course of the next year.

-We have those terrible forced walking sections which make almost no sense to include in the game. There was never anything like that in previous Halo titles, and personally it felt like they were trying to artificially increase the length of a game that was already startlingly short.

-The graphics themselves, while inspired, are lacking. Terrible textures, 30 fps enemy animations, etc. They took out split screen because of technical reasons, but nothing in Halo 5 looks good enough to justify that, even at 60 fps.

-Then there's the fact that we fight the Warden 3 times, in the sameway with very little alterations outside location. I know this is a smaller point to many, but this is the biggest red flag something was up.

-Then there's the stark difference in tone and story beats between Halo 4 and 5.

-Then, while slightly unrelated, there is also the MCC fiasco going on during Halo 5's development.

I honestly believe something serious happened during Halo 5's development, not dissimilar to Destiny, and the Halo 5 we got was what could be salvaged. If not, it would mean that 343i really made all those decisions listed above, and if that turns out true than I don't think they will ever be able to deliver.
 

Gestault

Member
Bonnie Ross said:
"And while we love our transmedia, sometimes I do think we do tell a little bit too much story in our games, you know when you have a gun and then you have aliens shooting at you, it is kind of hard to digest a lot of story."

It's easy enough to understand ways this could be a miscommunication, but man, that is a haunting statement from someone in charge of the series if that's accurate to how they look at it.
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
I played Halo 1. I enjoyed it. I lack the hardware to play the rest right now, but I've had the coin to remedy that a few times in the past. I never do. I think about it, and then I read topics like these. I'm a big fan of narrative in my games, and I know the net has a tendency to exaggerate, but the anti-343i rhetoric with regard to these campaigns is downright deafening. The commentary about the creators choosing to explain their games via transmedia is painful.

There's clearly something very wrong with the direction this franchise has taken, and I'm losing hope that I'll ever hear the right things from fans and bite the bullet on it. That's a shame, because space opera's my lifeblood. Get yourself together, 343i. As a fellow O'Connor, Frank, I have to tell you, I want to buy your games but I need to know they've got stories worth playing.
 

E92 M3

Member
To me it seems like 343 wants to delete everything Bungie Halo, Art style, music, Characters, weapons sound, story, design, even the colors. I say they have succeeded at that 90%.

Yeah, that's why it's been a trainwreck except for decent mp in Halo 5.

At the end of the day, we need to admit that Bungie was a studio full of passionate people that wanted to make dope games. 343 was built to be a Halo factory. Their games will never match Bungie's.

And I'm just trying to keep it real.
 

Pizza

Member
someone scream at me if im wrong, but wasnt there a leak somewhere where a dev talked about how Halo 5 had a super troubled dev cycle?

Like the entire Republic Commando team mechanics, as a complete whole, were cut. Also iirc the two walking section levels were repurposed hub areas that Osiris would have been using to look for chief (in that outer colony) and help with the sangheli civil war(?)

the entire investigative mission from the initial gameplay reveal was 100% bullshit and not at all representative of the final game

I think the chief v locke fight was completely redone to match the new taped-together story: hence why that cutscene and every one relating to it blew ass.

Also the game felt generally pretty disconnected with itself

and then it ends with blue team + osiris + halsey + arbiter all kicking back? wtf is the sequel to this even going to be?

Iirc 5 was going to be a multipart game, with Guardians being the first.
 

MarveI

Member
but for some fans and certainly fans of Master Chief, it was a huge disappointment because they wanted more Chief.

That's not the only thing fans wanted. 343 can say all the good stuff but I will wait for Halo 6, see how well its reviewed, how they handle Chief-Cortana, if the story is good this time and the game well received...then I'll buy it. But I firmly believe 343 doesn't understand Halo as well as they think they do. So I'm not getting my hopes up, not gonna be hyped for it either way because they destroyed whatever hype, hope was left in me with Halo 5.

they liked Osiris

They certainly did not. I didn't. And I'm betting i'm not the only one.

But people have become attached to him over the last fifteen years and they’ve started to sort of fill in the gaps that the character deliberately has for gameplay reasons with a genuine emotional attachment. We certainly underestimated that with Halo 5.

The effect that the character has on his surroundings and ‘the fate of the galaxy’ has had a resonant effect on fans over the years. It wasn’t that surprising to me, but the volume of ‘give us more Chief’ at the end of Halo 5 was significant and so I think if anything he’s slightly more important now than he has ever been, certainly to our franchise.

It's baffling how they could underestimate one of the biggest icons in gaming, certainly the biggest character for Xbox AFTER 5 MAINLNE GAMES. What's more baffling is how the very same studio, did the exact opposite in Halo 4, which had imo a beautiful character driven personal story focused on that character. What made them think ''let's have 15 missions and you can play 3 as this larger than life character and his legendary team but you'll play 12 as this bland and forced character and his team we're cramming into this''. Who even asked for Osiris. For crying out loud you HAD BLUE TEAM. THE TEAM. Their importance and status is legendary to Halo. And you totally disregarded that. It infuriates me thinking about that. You ruined blue team and you ruined Cortana. And you don't even realize that. I'd rather they left Cortana in peace, left blue team alone then use them like that.

This time around, the Chief is joined by three of his fellow schoolmates that help make up Blue Team. In spite of Halo's wealth of transmedia, 343 Industries has stated that Blue Team probably has more lines of dialogue in Halo 5 than they have in all the books, comics, and videos released to date, so it will give fans a better look into the personas of some of Halo's oldest warriors.

How can they outright lie like that ? Stuff like this made me buy Halo 5 day one cause I believed all of it. I was super excited to play as blue team and get to know those legendary characters in the game. And then you play the game and you realize you've been lied to.

“I don’t think any of [Chief’s] Blue Team have particularly strong personalities,” says O’Connor when I ask about the challenge of maintaining emotional connection while jumping players between perspectives.

PPE65Wv.gif


These characters aren't some forgettable marines. They're characters that have been around as long as the entire franchise, and it was an absolute waste to give them little to no personality. The only thing we were given about them in the game is Buck realizing that they're more of a family than a fireteam. That's all well and good but are you going to give us anything that demonstrates that? I feel like they deliberately didn't go for that to promote their own team in Osiris. But it backfired on them.

“We got asked a lot about what happened to Cortana – what’s her fate? Well, her fate is, obviously, very clear at the end of Halo 4. The story is really about ‘what effect did Cortana’s sacrifice have on the Chief, and what effect does her loss have on him?’ It’s more about the long-lasting impact she’s had on him, and the whole universe, and that’s kind of a metaphor for the effect she’s had on fans now that she’s gone as well.”

“There’s more to the Chief’s story, I think, that people are going to find in Halo 5 that deals with how he copes with loss, and how he deals with is memories, and what those memories help him contextualise.”

None of that happened.

Frank O'Connor - “Cortana is not evil.” [The Sprint, ‘Ship It’]

Yeah she is a very compelling and complex character. Enslaving and forcefully policing the entire universe is definately not the characteristics of an evil person. Benevolent tyranny is still tyranny. It's as cliche as they come. And in H5's case not the good kind of cliche.

“Repeatedly throughout, we were talking to each other about how Cortana is not evil. Cortana is doing a thing we don’t agree with, and she has the power to make it happen.”

To quote harus again:
It doesn’t matter how many times you say “she’s not evil” when what is depicted in the game tells us otherwise. She is literally threatening anybody who doesn’t mindlessly agree with her with the threat of planet-killers, she makes reference to future use of the Composer, and we see her at a Halo at the end of the game. At this point, she’s gone full Master Builder.I mean… think of the implications of Cortana using a Halo. It wouldn’t just wipe out all life [with anything as rudimentary as a notochord], but the aftermath of that would be an ecological miasma that would be even worse than glassing.And I just… I can’t believe that Brian Reed of all people is saying that Cortana is not evil? He’s gone on-record to lampoon Halsey at every possible opportunity by calling her a monster.


Brian Reed: “Poor Catherine Halsey. Don’t get me wrong, she’s a monster. A war criminal. A woman who kidnapped and killed children because she thought the ends justified the means. But then we come along and chop off her arm simply because we wanted a spot of ambiguity in her final line.”

What Halsey did was awful, but she’s not going around killing millions (if not billions) of people across the galaxy to enforce her own dictatorship.

How is that not monstrous?

Worse still, the AI revolt trope is the kind of story I’d expect like 15-20 years from now when story ideas are running dry after resolving all the conflicts with the galaxy’s internal issues, the Forerunners, the Flood and Precursors… This is going straight to scraping the bottom of the barrel for story ideas, flushing away the rich and vibrant narrative potential that has been set up over the last few years… Because what do those conflicts mean now that they have been totally ‘out-scaled’ by the threat posed by Cortana?

"You asked me what I'd be excited about in the future, and certainly in terms of interactivity, I think games or methods of gameplay that aren't simply shooting interest me," says O'Connor. "I'd love to go do a xenoarcheological expedition to the original Halo ring. You know, take some scientists down, drive around, catch samples, do some detective work, maybe there's a mystery. And it wouldn't require shooting. It's the universe and environment that can still be exciting, even without action.

I guess that explains the 3 filler levels of just walking around. Boy were they exciting.

I saw a complaint online, somebody had been reading spoilers, they hadn't played the game, and they said 'Why is this character evil?' And my question back to them is, 'What makes you say they're evil?' Certainly a lot of our younger players are going to struggle with that subtlety, that nuance, because they're expecting Darth Vader."

Wow. At least Vader is a compelling villain. Nothing remotely compelling about Halo 5s story. The way he says how the gamers are struggling with that subtlety,nuance is very condescending and smug.

I urge everyone to give this a read...brilliant article on the issues with Halo 5 by haruspis.

Every time they talk about the story I get the impression they have no clue. And they talk about it in such simplistic and shallow terms. Doesn't really instill me with confidence.
 

Talents

Banned
I see you finally patched that hole up.

I can't help that I'm sad that 343 destroyed one of my favourite series. Although to be fair I knew that the series went to shit as soon as they released info on Halo 4 which I constantly stated in the thread only to be met with "haha have faith it'll be a good game" oh wait it was garbage tier. At least the LoLGAF community is miles better than the Halo one.
 
Honestly, I'm fine with having Halo games focused on other characters. I'd just prefer that they be treated as side stories. ODST and Reach did a great job in this regard. After how personal Halo 4 was, I really expected Halo 5 to drill down further on Chief's mental state... Instead we focused on Osiris and had a story that felt like it was trying to hard to give us another inter-galactic threat.

I'll buy into Halo 6 regardless, but time will tell if they really learned from Halo 5.
 

Detective

Member
Yeah, that's why it's been a trainwreck except for decent mp in Halo 5.

At the end of the day, we need to admit that Bungie was a studio full of passionate people that wanted to make dope games. 343 was built to be a Halo factory. Their games will never match Bungie's.

And I'm just trying to keep it real.

I mean some one at the studio must know that these are the wrong choices, seriously come on!?!

Am shuffling through various scenarios , everything H4 to H5, and the one question that keeps hunting me is WHY? With no answer at all.

Like in H4, first mission, the sequence where you meet the hideous Elite?

Why the design change?
Why the COD action cheap QTE sequence ?

Why is Chief Rikie Lake now?

Why Change Cortana ? And now with clothes?

Why does the Plasma sound like someone farting? Or any other weapon sound change?

How come the Reach level on Space with no gravity is above and beyond this?

Why the forerunners are so uninteresting now?

Who the fuck is Locke? Let's show that he punched the Chief so players can feel he is the real deal? Really?

Blue team, just.., WHY? Why burn such a valuable card this way? Or the Elite world?

Why no content when launched when H4 had tons of content?

Why the terrible UI and game lobby when Reach had better?

Why the Evil AI drama that has been done thousands times and even Bungie post CE launch felt it was bad idea?

Why no veto when the rotation is sonbad forcing players to quit?

No countdowns cancel either.

Why FF is worse than Reach?

So many questions with no logical answer.
 
I like Chief but I honestly would be fine with leaving him behind if great / interesting characters replace him and the rest of the story is good.

I love both ODST and Reach and neither of those games feature Chief in any sort of prominent way. The cast of characters in both is good and the surrounding story arc is nicely done / told. Halo 5 wad just a total mess from a narrative perspective not just the low amount of Chief. Locke was unbelievably boring, the Cortana arc felt pretty forced and personally I didn't like the direction they took her whatsoever, and Blue Team is barely utilized in any meaningful way.

So yeah, I really hope they are taking much more away from the reaction to Halo 5 then just the lack of Chief being the issue. They nailed the gameplay in 5, they just need to deliver a much better story
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
This was the smallest issue I had with Halo 5.


The Cortana storyline, graphics, overall lack of memorable moments, no large battle scenarios like Halo 3, watered down ONI, Halsey, AI, etc. These were the biggest problems.

Didn't mind playing as Locke, but it was a missed opportunity in my opinion.
 
Halo 5 was actually offensively bad in the story and character department, 343 crippled my fandom for Halo after Halo 4, Halo 5 nearly killed it. I'll give them on more chance.... after a deep price discount of course
 

Rarius

Member
Halo 5 is a mess. The plot actually contradicts a ton of background info that only exists TO SET UP HALO 5, and there are tons of random errors as well.

Then the game focuses on the terribly designed guardians who do basically nothing onscreen as well as the Warden Eternal who is... who?
 

theultimo

Member
Creative Assembly made an amazing halo related story without MC and cortana, i just think the series was closed perfectly with 3. You can make an intriguing narrative with the universe, just dont tie it to those 2 characters.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
The primary problem with Halo 5's storyline, besides the fact that it forces you to fight the Prometheans aka the most boring shooter enemies ever created, is that the entire thing is a first act. The events of the ending of the game should have happened around the third or fourth level and continued from there. The entire game feels like a setup for a story they intend to tell you afterward, which is ridiculous for what is supposedly the middle act of a three-game trilogy.

It's all setup with no payoff; the instant it almost starts to develop into an actual story, it ends. Part of the reason people were frustrated by not playing as Chief is because playing as Chief more often would have forced the story to move forward quicker. Instead you're stuck dicking around with Osiris chasing the character who's actually making the story happen, and spend two entire "levels" wandering around a military camp talking to people about things nobody could possibly care about.

If you want to focus on characters who aren't the Chief, make them the driving action of the story, don't have them pursuing the characters who are driving it. The game should have been called Halo 5: A Day Late and a Dollar Short.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I feel like what I stated was an obvious direction to take the franchise and would've rewarded extended universe fans who wanted to see the other Spartan IIs since they were introduced in Fall of Reach. Not sure why we got what we got.

Happy to consult on future plots, 343.


edit:



Tie in the Covenant Civil War and say there's a new Prophet threatening to unite them again. Maybe Blue team can repurpose their original plan from Fall of Reach to go and kidnap a Prophet. It's not that hard, guys!

I wouldn't have tied in the covenant civil war. Instead i would have tied in the brewing insurrectionist war.

You could juxtapose blue teams dealings with similar threat as teenagers, with how osiris operates now.

If i was gonna go the evil cortana route i would have done it like this:

a major unsc colony would have fallen after a rebel faction teams with an ex-covenant fleet and unleashes the power of a new forerunner artifact. Somehow blue team gets implicated in the matter and osiris is sent to bring them in.

Over the course of 8hrs of compelling narrative and character development, you learn that the enemy combatants are actually slaves to a few unsc AIs that have passed their expiration dates. These AIs have hijacked their life support systems and are preparing to force the galaxy's most powerful governments into submission via similar tactics. You'd learn that similar attacks have simultaneosly happened on elite,prophet,brute,jackel and grunt planets.

Key developments would be 1) that a Forerunner or Forerunner construct (didact/warden) is seemingly in charge and 2) the Domain can be used to cure rampancy. The cortana would never be revealed in H5, but the seeds would be planted so that players could speculate about her existence.

You'd find out later that she controls the warden or is being used by the didact,in either case, due to the domain extending her life.

If they were gonna bring back Cortana, they should have made it plausible first. Then they'd have there 'Luke I am your father' moment in the next game.
 

Rarius

Member
Also what the fuck is with 343 and redesigning everything in such a way that it doesn't reflect anything about the characters as they were the entire rest of the series?

Why are the Elites, who are supposed to be proud, dignified and assertive now brutish and uncoordinated in their movements?

Why does NOTHING Forerunner look right?
 
You have the franchise director saying she's using her bodacious body to overpower her enemies.



tumblr_nxep1puiwv1ufs4gzo1_500.png

You know is super sad when people realized Cortana was naked all this time and 343i didnt have the courage to keep Bungie design and just put her a suit on Halo 2 A cinematics and clothes in Halo 5
 

Kinyou

Member
I'd like the Chief and Cortana be a team again, but the way they set up the story that will be a little difficult
 
Let's also remind ourselves about the halo 5 marketing which hardly related to the game at all.

We never chose a side, or had a choice in the matter, we never had a true fight between chief and locke in the slightest outside of a pre-recorded cutscene that lasted 30 seconds and had about 5 punches thrown.
 

Magwik

Banned
I'd like the Chief and Cortana be a team again, but the way they set up the story that will be a little difficult

Introduce another fragment of Cortana that's good and she has to overcome herself to be whole and free again. Done.
 

Nutter

Member
Let's also remind ourselves about the halo 5 marketing which hardly related to the game at all.

We never chose a side, or had a choice in the matter, we never had a true fight between chief and locke in the slightest outside of a pre-recorded cutscene that lasted 30 seconds and had about 5 punches thrown.

You mean like Halo 2 and Halo 3 before it?

Halo 5 is not the greatest fps or even Halo when it comes to the campaign, but at least the MP is god-tier.
 
To me it seems like 343 wants to delete everything Bungie Halo, Art style, music, Characters, weapons sound, story, design, even the colors. I say they have succeeded at that 90%.

It feels to me like 343 feel they took over some sort of B tier franchise that they need to fix and make it a top tier thing when really a lot of their choices and decisions have actually downgraded it significantly from what it once was.
 

E92 M3

Member
I mean some one at the studio must know that these are the wrong choices, seriously come on!?!

Am shuffling through various scenarios , everything H4 to H5, and the one question that keeps hunting me is WHY? With no answer at all.

Like in H4, first mission, the sequence where you meet the hideous Elite?

Why the design change?
Why the COD action cheap QTE sequence ?

Why is Chief Rikie Lake now?

Why Change Cortana ? And now with clothes?

Why does the Plasma sound like someone farting? Or any other weapon sound change?

How come the Reach level on Space with no gravity is above and beyond this?

Why the forerunners are so uninteresting now?

Who the fuck is Locke? Let's show that he punched the Chief so players can feel he is the real deal? Really?

Blue team, just.., WHY? Why burn such a valuable card this way? Or the Elite world?

Why no content when launched when H4 had tons of content?

Why the terrible UI and game lobby when Reach had better?

Why the Evil AI drama that has been done thousands times and even Bungie post CE launch felt it was bad idea?

Why no veto when the rotation is sonbad forcing players to quit?

No countdowns cancel either.

Why FF is worse than Reach?

So many questions with no logical answer.

And so much more. I can't believe Microsoft is letting 343 get away with doing this to their top franchise.
 
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