uncleslappy
nethack is my favorite dark souls clone
And we have the nerve to jump on GAF and complain about frame drops.
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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
TimeEffect
Member
Sure, but I'm still curious. Eventually, it takes its toll, but I am sure some in the industry would love a chance to bat in the big leagues.
Some people love the lifestyle, as crazy as it may be. Some people don't know when to get out. And hopefully some are fortunate enough to get a taste and get out with their well being.
This whole post is a stunning explanation as to why labor rights in the US are so utterly medieval.
wapplew
Member
AA still here, they are just AAA 5 years ago in disguise. R&C for example, have to price at $40.
Our standard changed.
You want the industry to collapse and burn. I see you.
Nah the people with families and kids have it considerably worse.
Palette Swap
Member
I know she touches on it a bit, but how are these expectations even compatible with a parental leave?
Or to put it more specifically, wouldn't these implicitly standard practices prevent the recruitment of young women in the first place as they'd be seen as liabilities by employers? This already happens in less strenuous environments so I can't imagine how it would go there.
Or to put it more specifically, wouldn't these implicitly standard practices prevent the recruitment of young women in the first place as they'd be seen as liabilities by employers? This already happens in less strenuous environments so I can't imagine how it would go there.
That there is the problem.
Or as I said about the Mafia 3 thread, a 30 fps cap.
Gotdatmoney
Member
A good way to handle this may be to have more days off inbetween. Like work two days get one iff. Work two get on off. Hire more staff but ease their hours so people get less burnt out. Retaining talent is hard especially in software.
Also project management is actually reqlly fucking hard for this sort of industry so people criticizing that I encourage to read up more and see how fucked IT management can be. 1 project every 2-3 years with the amount of burnout in the industry is not a lot of consistency.
I would never do it personally. The industry is way to volatile for that kind of stress
Also project management is actually reqlly fucking hard for this sort of industry so people criticizing that I encourage to read up more and see how fucked IT management can be. 1 project every 2-3 years with the amount of burnout in the industry is not a lot of consistency.
I would never do it personally. The industry is way to volatile for that kind of stress
SneakersSO
Member
BE AN INDIE DEV HE SAYS!
I'm a dev - i've worked both triple A & indie; I have friends who are both triple A & indie. This is the most ignorant-ass shit I have ever heard. Understand 1 thing - indie devs work just as hard & as long as triple-A devs.
There is no need to feel sorry for these people? Its shit like this that tempts me to just give it all up & leave. Cause ultimately, the myriad of sacrifices I have seen in development by people in their own lives is not worth it, cause the 'fanbase' doesn't give a FUCK about what you & yours will go through to give them the quality they want & feel they deserve.
I know friends who sacrificed multi-year relationships to ship titles this fall. Others who have been crunching over 60+ hours for the last year, through the holidays. Some who haven't had enough personal time to go out on a date in years. And through it all, they do it for the fans, they tell themselves. The same ones who sit here & have zero sympathy for the encouraged corporate culture that continues to oppress them.
The most ignorant part is the fact that successful indie's also work 80+ hours a week as well in many cases. Software development has long working hours inherent in it because in many cases you can't just bring in new bodies because in some cases that will actually hurt the project since they need to be trained and sometimes having multiple people working on something is worse then a single person who knows all the code going into it. The problem is really that these massive games need to be give 6-7 years for development or have a base minimal game that gets updated over 6-7 years. But then reviewers rip them to shreds for not having enough content.
How does that attitude solve anything ?
If conditions could be better for devs,we should try to advocate that at least as an ideal.
Stone Ocean
Member
A delay has nothing to do with the quality of a game or port. Optimization woes does.
By that logic we have no right to criticize any game that isn't an asset flip on Steam because the devs worked hard. We can sympathize with shitty working conditions and have quality / performance standards, these things are not exclusive.
Slackbladder
Member
I was going to say working from home should be easy to do in these type of jobs, but then I thought "who wants to bring their work into the only sanctuary they have?" There must be a better way than working excessive hours. I usually do 48-60 but with quite low levels of stress in my job. I'd hate to do 60+ and be under constant pressure to hit targets etc.
haha oh man
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yep most AA games have become DD only games.
As you said people are not going to paid $60 for certain games like they did years ago.
AAA grind is absolutely brutal. I will never do that even if that ends up being my only shot at developing games for a living. I remember how I dreamed about working in big famous studios. Haven't dreamed about that in years. I do dream about doing indie developing for a living though. I don't need them big bucks. Just something that will pay the bills month to month and will not leave me feeling like I'm just a cog in the machine being grinded to the breaking point. Indie developing is hard too but at least there is more agency to your day to day operations.
SneakersSO
Member
It's not just crunch. Its the culture 'around' crunch. Get any group of devs together for any small amount of time, and within minutes you will hear the conversation switch to them exchanging crunch horror stories. We exchange these stories as points of pride, when they really should be points of shame.
True story - I once worked so long on a title right when we were nearing submission that I 'lost time' and woke up in my bed, which was over 20 miles away from my office, over 14 hours after the last time I remember looking at a clock. You think i'd go back to bed & catch up on sleep right? Nope, I got my ass out of bed, feeling guilty as SHIT for having gone home & slept while my teammates were still in the trenches, and rushed my ass back to the office just to ensure the things I had been working on had finished up properly. At least I finished my task list while I was blacked out.
Outrun
Member
I would rather they not pull off what they pull off, if it means these sort of labour practices...
I would rather a 5 year dev cycle with happy workers, working decent hours than this....
That is just me....
schaft0620
Member
Your the one making it that way. I'm just saying that it gets worse than this.
Clint Beastwood
Banned
From another thread but lol
this won't ever change.
That's cool. Never said they didn't.
and that person making 40k a year has it easier than someone with no job living in streets.
Well since neither Amy Hennig or the person making 40k a year with kids aren't at rock bottom I guess none of this matters
this won't ever change.
That's cool. Never said they didn't.
and that person making 40k a year has it easier than someone with no job living in streets.
Well since neither Amy Hennig or the person making 40k a year with kids aren't at rock bottom I guess none of this matters
Zantetsuken
Member
Really opened my eyes to a lot. I'm not in gaming but I worked 12 hours a day for two weeks straight one time and I'll never do it again. You start to feel like a zombie.
Look, I'm not saying products should be immune to being criticized, but people just suddenly dropping a product because it suddenly doesn't hit a checkbox of "required" PC features just doesn't make sense to me.
And honestly, by what you just said are you saying Mafia 3 is just an asset flip because it clearly isn't.
"They have it pretty easy, imagine the subsistence farmers in Nigeria."
DevilDog
Member
FIrst of all, nobody should be pre-ordering anyway.
Second it's really their decision. Other people worked really hard to get a computer to play games on 60+ fps.
Makes me revisit the IGN article about sources saying that Hennig was "forced out" by Druckmann, and that dude's even a hard ass on his actors so I can only imagine the toxic work environment for everyone else. Hopefully EA and their huge team of resources is a better fit, AAA devs really need to get organized into a union.
Madison Paige
Member
I've always been a supporter of games being delayed. I don't care how long it takes, I would rather the developers get to spend as much time as they can making it perfect while also not being subject to a constant crunch. I mean, I have no issue with games being delayed for multiple years if that's what it takes. People should not be expected to work over 60 hours per week. The end-game crunch is somewhat understandable, and as an artist I can definitely say that I've experienced that awesome burst of energy and creativity at the very tail end of a project, but these titles stretching into infinity with an unending crunch and still getting trashed on by people who literally have nothing to do with the games industry except for consuming them is really sad.
That's one of the reasons I really respect Rockstar. They don't seem to play this game at all. They're silent until they have something to say, and I suspect part of the reason is because they have given themselves the leeway to work on things at their own pace. I don't know many of the stories about what goes on inside of Rockstar, though, so I could just be talking out of my ass. People still throw tantrums about it, yeah, but I haven't seen them say much back because they're too busy making the magic happen, and they'll reveal it when they're good and ready to. Perhaps that's the way to go.
That's one of the reasons I really respect Rockstar. They don't seem to play this game at all. They're silent until they have something to say, and I suspect part of the reason is because they have given themselves the leeway to work on things at their own pace. I don't know many of the stories about what goes on inside of Rockstar, though, so I could just be talking out of my ass. People still throw tantrums about it, yeah, but I haven't seen them say much back because they're too busy making the magic happen, and they'll reveal it when they're good and ready to. Perhaps that's the way to go.
We already have 5 year dev cycles you would be looking at 7-8 year dev cycles.
Actually that makes perfect sense. I don't buy anything if it doesn't meet my requirements.
Gai Murakumo
Member
Trying to create a union pretty much guarantee's you lose your job in most cases. The company will just say "Hey you don't want to work in these conditions, we will just find someone who will". It is the sad reality unfortunately.
That doesn't gel with the reality of what software development is like. A reason people will work like 14 hour days is because programmers "get into the zone" and it's hard to break out of it. Your proposal to work two days, then take a day off is conducive to mental health, but isn't really conducive to development. As a programmer, when I sit down and start developing, it's not something I can turn on and off. It will take me a good amount of time to get into my work flow, primarily because the things I work on requires I be mindful of many things and places in my code. Software is like a clockwork mechanism, and just being able to visualize and conceptualize what your code is doing takes mental energy.
Your schedule also ignores the reality that, when programmers take breaks while working on a problem, we don't really shut off mentally. If I force myself to step away from a problem I'm working on in the middle of the problem, that problem is literally all I will think about until I return to finish fixing it. I will dream about that problem. As I walk through the grocery store or drive around the city, my mind will constantly be on it. Sometimes individual problems can take days to fix.
And hiring more staff isn't always the answer, either. It's the whole "9 women can't make a baby in 1 month" situation -- sometimes it's unfeasible to ask two people to tag in and out of a single problem, not least of which because you're basically asking two minds to become in sync. Figuring out a solution can be trial and error at times, and it might actually take more time to explain to someone else what you've tried, and how your code works, than it would be for you to just power through yourself.
And these are all problems with development in general, not necessarily limited to games development, or even AAA development. I don't know the solutions to these problems, but I don't think mandatory days off or additional staff is necessarily the solution. My personal opinion? Longer dev cycles -- not necessarily a mandatory schedules of days off, but when someone powers through a solution, let them take a mental health break at their leisure. Of course, this ultimately hurts when you approach milestone deadlines, and people would bitch about 6 or 7 year long dev cycles, and at that point budgeting basically becomes impossible... so, yeah, I really don't know how to solve this problem.
CopperPuppy
Member
This post is really stupid for many reasons, first and foremost being that you think indie devs don't crunch.
On topic: Crunch is a nuanced issue. When it's mandatory, that can get really fucked up. But creative people tend to be perfectionists and workaholics, which leads to them wanting to make their games as good as possible, which leads to them putting in extra hours (especially towards the end of a project), which leads to other people feeling pressured to put in extra hours, which leads to a studio culture where nobody sees their families. I'm sure there are ways to mitigate the problem, but how? How do you stop people from trying to cram as much new stuff as possible or fix as many bugs as they can before a game goes out the door? I've talked to AAA managers who say they've tried forcing people to go home at a certain hour, but that it never really works. Some devs have self-imposed limits -- maybe they'll stay at work until 2am during the week when necessary but they'll NEVER work weekends, or something like that.
I had lunch with the bulk of a small studio yesterday and we were talking about how bad their last crunch was. One of them vowed that it won't happen again; the other responded, half-sarcastically, "wait until we're about to ship [next thing]." They're so into polishing and tweaking and refining -- as most creative people are -- that when they're staring down a deadline, they feel pressured to get as much work done as possible.
The really sad thing is that this has led to a dearth of senior-level talent in the video game industry because so many people have burnt out. It seems unsustainable. But how do you fix it?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=987962
On average despite the grammar usually being quite alright here on GAF there is a lot of garbage shit spewed at people that work in this industry.
Then seeing the posts by SneakersSO and the contrast between reality and the fantasy that people have made up is stark.
I took it as a parable of having to do yet another sequel.
God of War is about families being torn apart by game dev.
therealist
Member
These studies don't really factor in deadlines and client demands though, which is how the vast majority of jobs where crunch is necessary works. The nature of project-based work is that nothing you plan for actually really comes true. When you are trying to manage projects, you assume things, you assume how much time this is supposed to take, you assume this is what the clients want. What happens if the thing you thought was supposed to take 20 hours ends up taking 30 hours? Or 40 hours? This happens all the time. What happens if mid-way through the project your client requests something else? Well, you may as well throw away your schedule. What happens if you find fatal flaws in your code and you have to go all the way back to the drawing board? Happens more than you think.
When issues arise (which btw, hundreds of these types of issues arise on a weekly basis), people aren't just going to go home at 5 PM and deal with it the next day. When that happens, deadlines get missed, gamers are angry because the release gets delayed, and the company loses money.
These are probably the kind of people that don't get enough mention for their work.
MysteryQuesadilla
Member
Its crazy when you think about it - what other industry expects 80+ hour work weeks from people without additional compensation (overtime) or a management structure that looks out for those pulling these crazy hours to ensure that folks aren't burning out and missing huge chunks out of their personal lives which is the primary reason they're busting hump to get you that AAA game experience?
I don't want to be a bummer I love Rockstar games to but they are pretty notorious for having absolutely brutal expectations from their workers. Like, Rockstar employees have taken their own lives during crunch.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
At least indie devs are crunching for themselves, and own the product they are crunching for.
AAA development seems like hell.
AAA development seems like hell.
How insulting and abrasive are we allowed to be on GAF? I want to know so that I can use every ounce of vitriol I have available in response to this ignorant, absurd and revolting post.
BriareosGAF
Member
Not just that but speculate wildly and incorrectly about said development. That said, it mostly just makes me think about what industries I like to complain about that I have no understanding of--especially financial products/securitization, etc.
i just can't stop thinking about this post lol
when you hate AAA so much that you ascend to blaming the devs for finding employment
this is the Woke Gator Tweet of neogaf gaming side
when you hate AAA so much that you ascend to blaming the devs for finding employment
this is the Woke Gator Tweet of neogaf gaming side