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[soultron]

Of course it's not worth it, she's right.

Besides good pay, what are the perks? Unless you're working on a game from an iconic franchise, its forgotten once the new flavor of the month is released.

Benefits (health insurance, etc.), $$$ bonuses, hella vacation time, working with incredibly smart people who often become your best friends in and out of work, problem solving every day, getting your hands on software tools and/or pipelines you couldn't afford yourself or aren't commercially available, the list goes on. I've been in the industry for 5 years now and I don't see myself quitting soon because all of what I listed is pretty good.

Do I crunch? Yes, sometimes. I actually found I crunched more at the beginning of my career as I wanted to get promotions and opportunities to prove myself. Today, more often than not, it's self-imposed because I want my work to be of a certain quality level and/or I want to learn new stuff. Sometimes that takes a while or you look up and hours have gone by, especially in the instances when you are actually enjoying what you're doing.

I think crunch is a definite problem if you're working sustained stretches of 60+ weeks, but if you're doing that all the time, either your project is completely fucked in its timeline or off-the-rails in terms of scope or, in the case of self-imposed crunch, you -- yourself -- need to know when it's time to step away.

To act like Hennig's experience is the same as anyone at any studio -- across the spectrum from Juniors to Directors -- feels like a diettante's view of things, in my opinion.

 

[JonathanPower]

You speak from experience?

I know for a fact that this happens at Naughty Dog. Amy Hennig worked as a writer and also as a creative director, which is why she worked 80+ hours, which according to her it's not worth it. But hey, you don't have to take my word for it, it's all in the OP.

 

[Kieli]

You seem very narrow minded. For some reason, you are incapable of understanding that what I am saying is not that such problems should be solved by brute force. What I said is simply that if you have one guy loaded with work that would normally require five people, hiring more coders is not trying to solve the problem by brute force, it's just having the adequate workforce to complete the job, in order to have acceptable working hours. Why I say this? Because this happens all the time. People are often loaded with way more work than they can actually do. And the reason why the aphorism is not appropriate is that while you absolutely can have more people working on the same code, you can't have different women giving birth to the same child. So no matter how hard you try to spin it, in this specific context the aphorism is not that appropriate.



I never said that most of that 80 hours is spent typing on a keyboard. However, whether they spend most of that time typing on a keyboard, smoking pot, dancing in circle or having a wild party with a topless waitress is not really the point here. The point is that the same job can either be completed by one guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week, with the difference begin the amount of individual workload.

That's not... how it works at all...

 

[Krejlooc]

I know for a fact that this happens at Naughty Dog. Amy Hennig worked as a writer and also as a creative director, which is why she worked 80+ hours, which according to her it's not worth it. But hey, you don't have to take my word for it, it's all in the OP.

So you want the writer to also not be the creative director? Those are congruent jobs, those are the jobs that should be done by one person. For all the reasons explained to you in this topic.

 

[FistyMcBeard]

With all due respect, most of the times someone such as Amy chose to work those hours, falsely believing they have to be present for every little meeting, make every little decision.

They have a need to take total control, and this is the result. When they realise they've spent a huge portion of their life maintaining that control, they blame the industry rather than themselves.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue with expectation of long hours, but its often accentuated by this type of behaviour. Learn to trust those around you more.

 

[gamingPotato7]

Look, Mythical Man-Month was already cited here and all, but it's not that simple as the way some people are putting it. Sure, dividing a task between two people doesn't mean that the work will be done twice as fast, much like dividing work between two threads. But if a more detailed planning is done at the beginning it is possible to be better prepared for the shortcomings that the project might have.

Games dev is a very iterative process, I know, but while doing that, if documentation and the architecture is updated constantly, it eases the introduction of new people if the project so needs. The problem is how management sees things. They think that simply adding people to the project will make things worse and they don't do the necessary effort to facilitate the communication channels. Also new people most of the time have to navigate through a lot of outdated documentation or simply none at all. Then there is the problem with scope and feature creep. Both of these makes projects much more gigantic then they were supposed to be in the beginning, and of course management instead of hiring more people, which means more expenses and time wasted, they just make current employees work more hours.

There is a lot that can be done to improve or eliminate crunch time. And the time to train new employees can be significantly improved if the tools are in place. What managers need to understand, and the actual employees themselves that self inflict crunch time, is that people are not productive 8, 9, 12 hours per day. Not at all. They are actually productive at about 5 hours each day. Most do a lot of breaks during the work day, navigate the web, and all of that, because it is impossible to concentrate that much time in a row. And if a person is tired, those 5 hours diminish by a lot. And worse, bugs are introduced, mistakes are made, not the most inspired work is done, at all. We are not machines and just as 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month, a single woman can't make a baby in 5 months just because she never sleeps during the pregnancy. Stupid analogy but whatever.

 

[JonathanPower]

So you want the writer to also not be the creative director? Those are congruent jobs, those are the jobs that should be done by one person. For all the reasons explained to you in this topic.

Yes, if the writer would make for a mediocre creative director, I personally wouldn't want that. Really, are you kidding me? She didn't do those jobs because they were congruent, she did them because she is actually great at doing both of these things. Now, why don't you tell me why Drew Karpyshyn wasn't the creative director of Mass Effect? Why was the game directed by someone else? According to your reasoning, this shouldn't have happened.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Benefits (health insurance, etc.), $$$ bonuses, hella vacation time, working with incredibly smart people who often become your best friends in and out of work, problem solving every day, getting your hands on software tools and/or pipelines you couldn't afford yourself or aren't commercially available, the list goes on. I've been in the industry for 5 years now and I don't see myself quitting soon because all of what I listed is pretty good.

Do I crunch? Yes, sometimes. I actually found I crunched more at the beginning of my career as I wanted to get promotions and opportunities to prove myself. Today, more often than not, it's self-imposed because I want my work to be of a certain quality level and/or I want to learn new stuff. Sometimes that takes a while or you look up and hours have gone by, especially in the instances when you are actually enjoying what you're doing.

I think crunch is a definite problem if you're working sustained stretches of 60+ weeks, but if you're doing that all the time, either your project is completely fucked in its timeline or off-the-rails in terms of scope or, in the case of self-imposed crunch, you -- yourself -- need to know when it's time to step away.

To act like Hennig's experience is the same as anyone at any studio -- across the spectrum from Juniors to Directors -- feels like a diettante's view of things, in my opinion.

Glad to hear it's not that bad everywhere.

 

[Gestault]

With all due respect, most of the times someone such as Amy chose to work those hours, falsely believing they have to be present for every little meeting, make every little decision.

They have a need to take total control, and this is the result. When they realise they've spent a huge portion of their life maintaining that control, they blame the industry rather than themselves.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue with expectation of long hours, but its often accentuated by this type of behaviour. Learn to trust those around you more.

Fucking nope. The issue is often that management isn't seeking additional staffing because they "know" the motivation by the harder workers is existential. As in, there aren't other people capable enough to take over those roles in the company, and the labor division isn't structured to be balanced. Because projects don't catastrophically fold, it's allowed to continute because "it isn't a problem yet."

That's bad management, and it's why statements like Hennig's are necessary.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

I can't imagine anyone who has their own business to work less than 80 hour/weeks. At least for the first five years.
I know she wasn't running Naughty Dog, but I feel people are really overreacting with regards to the number of hours.

As long as you enjoy the work and it enriches you (in more ways than just financially), it isn't 'wasting your life'. This isn't really related to the issue of crunch times and poor management regarding game development, but I felt like I wanted to mention it.

 

[Gestault]

I can't imagine anyone who has their own business to work less than 80 hour/weeks. At least for the first five years.
I know she wasn't running Naughty Dog, but I feel people are really overreacting with regards to the number of hours.

As long as you enjoy the work and it enriches you (in more ways than just financially), it isn't 'wasting your life'.

I feel like we've all been there, but consistent 80-hour weeks will destroy you. It's not healthy. It doesn't allow you to make normal emotional connections with other people or persue a healthy range of experiences.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

I feel like we've all been there, but consistent 80-hour weeks will destroy you. It's not healthy. It doesn't allow you to make normal emotional connections with other people or persue a healthy range of experiences.

I know, I am typing this wearing two wrist guards and not having had a day off in 4 years, but as long as it is a conscious decision...

(I would have probably just wrecked my wrists playing games all day, anyway.)

I guess it is really about finding work that you love, and not wanting to give that dream up. I don't think you would last with these schedules if you weren't passionate.

 

[clem84]

I don't mean to sound simplistic but, if she had the salary to go along with that, then I don't see a problem. It's a choice.

I've heard stories of employees in the games industry having a fixed yearly income, so the same week after week, but having to work extra hours when it's crunch time just because they're expected to. That F'n sucks.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

I don't mean to sound simplistic but, if she had the salary to go along with that, then I don't see a problem. It's a choice.

I've heard stories of employees in the games industry having a fixed yearly income, so the same week after week, but having to work extra hours when it's crunch time just because they're expected to. That F'n sucks.

That should be illegal. (And probably is.)

 

[Biff]

talks about how the world works, thinks the creative director for naughty dog makes half a million a year in salary, lmfao

Are you real?

You seriously believe the LEAD CREATIVE of Sony's #1 franchise wasn't pulling in $500K at the peak of her career? Base + bonus?

You understand that software engineers were making $700K at Infinity Ward in the Modern Warfare days, right?

But yeah, instead of actually addressing the points in my post, just focus on the only number I dropped in there that then invalidates my view of how the professional world works.

"lmfao" indeed.

 

[Messofanego]

Not that I don't have sympathy for the woman but doctors and nurses do near those kind of hours for far less money and in much harder conditions. She is a writer and I bet half those hours she was sat on her arse drinking coffee. My daughter is training to be a nurse and already she is doing 12hr night shifts, my wife works for tesco as a deputy manager and knocks out 11hrs a day mostly and I have in the past worked for a fast fit firm and have done horrendous hours and shifts before.

You do know that doctors and nurses go on strikes for those kind of hours, right? Did you just forget the junior doctor strikes these past few years? You really think doctors and nurses are happy doing 12 hour shifts? They become the equivalent of drunkards in their performance with that kind of stress and overwork.

What an ignorant dismissive whataboutism statement.

All the money in the world won't keep you healthy.

 

[Shep572]

Are you real?

You seriously believe the LEAD CREATIVE of Sony's #1 franchise wasn't pulling in $500K at the peak of her career? Base + bonus?

You understand that software engineers were making $700K at Infinity Ward in the Modern Warfare days, right?

But yeah, instead of actually addressing the points in my post, just focus on the only number I dropped in there that then invalidates my view of how the professional world works.

"lmfao" indeed.

You really have no idea what salaries are like in the games industry. No software engineer was making $700k during the modern warfare days, probably more on the scale of $100-120 tops for the seniors. Where are you getting these numbers from? Upload a source to backup these ridiculous figures.

 

[Argonomic]

You really have no idea what salaries are like in the games industry. No software engineer was making $700k during the modern warfare days, probably more on the scale of $100-120 tops for the seniors. Where are you getting these numbers from? Upload a source to backup these ridiculous figures.

https://gamerant.com/activision-lawsuit-infinity-ward-salaries-bonuses-dyce-150382/

"With so much money being paid to the top members of the team, Griffith notes in the email to Kotick and Kelly that “we are paying way too many people way too much – we need to find a way to put caps on our bonus payouts.”

First the execs entice you by creating a system where you make a direct profit off a percent of sales. Then they balk because you were too successful. Classy.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

That should be illegal. (And probably is.)

It isn't. Salaried employees are exempt from overtime laws in the US.

Tons of salaries jobs where you're expected to get certain amounts of work done with no regard to how many extra hours over 40 it takes per week.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You seem very narrow minded. For some reason, you are incapable of understanding that what I am saying

Because you don't have any idea about what you're talking about and are presenting solutions to a problem that wouldn't work because just to reiterate. You don't know anything about what you're talking about. You say the solution is simple, but consider this, if the solution was so simple, and there wasn't a shit ton of reasons not to just brute force it, way do you think this isn't done?


P.S.
You think people haven't noticed that you've at every turn completely avoiding answering whether or not you have software development/programming experience? It's really transparent.

 

[CSJ]

TEN YEARS OF 80 HOURS WEEKS?
wh...hurghh.... I think after a year I'd be finding somewhere else to work.

That dedication, strength and motivation, I do 53-63 a week(63 if I work saturdays twice a month usually) and next year for 3 months someone is leaving so I need to do 2 peoples jobs for that time and that's going to stress me out as it is.

But 80. No. I can't. How.
That pay better be good and it probably is not

I do wonder what people take into account with that, some people use getting up and going home as work time, others include the lunch break they get as well.

 

[HPX]

She joined a year after they started.

That said, we can look across EA to see this trend.

Dragon Age 2 -> Dragon Age Inquisition: 3.5 years

Mass Effect 3 -> Mass Effect: Andromeda: 5 years

Battlefield 4 -> Battlefield 1: 3 years

Need For Speed even increased to two year development cycles.

I'd list more examples but uh, EA doesn't release all that many games anymore that aren't annual sports titles...

I knew about crunch time. But how does this work for companies like Dice, who operate in sweden. We have strict rules regarding work times. Not having looked into it I doubt you can even work 80h weeks on a voluntarily basis.

 

[Justin Bailey]

That's not... how it works at all...

Multiple people with actual development expertise keep telling this guy this - he is not listening. He has already dug his heels in and is just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. Just move on people. . .

 

[The Praiseworthy]

Makes you appreciate the games you get even more... much much more.

 

[potatohead]

It isn't. Salaried employees are exempt from overtime laws in the US.

Tons of salaries jobs where you're expected to get certain amounts of work done with no regard to how many extra hours over 40 it takes per week.

That's me.

It's not uncommon either. I work 6 days/80 plus hrs every week too.

I'll get a pay day from it eventually though not sure what game developers get though.

 

[Neoweee]

I don't mean to sound simplistic but, if she had the salary to go along with that, then I don't see a problem. It's a choice.

I've heard stories of employees in the games industry having a fixed yearly income, so the same week after week, but having to work extra hours when it's crunch time just because they're expected to. That F'n sucks.

Above a certain point, salaries are exempt from overtime pay; they are just per-pay-period. It varies from state to state, though.

 

[Biff]

You really have no idea what salaries are like in the games industry. No software engineer was making $700k during the modern warfare days, probably more on the scale of $100-120 tops for the seniors. Where are you getting these numbers from? Upload a source to backup these ridiculous figures.

https://gamerant.com/activision-lawsuit-infinity-ward-salaries-bonuses-dyce-150382/

"With so much money being paid to the top members of the team, Griffith notes in the email to Kotick and Kelly that “we are paying way too many people way too much – we need to find a way to put caps on our bonus payouts.”

First the execs entice you by creating a system where you make a direct profit off a percent of sales. Then they balk because you were too successful. Classy.

Thank you.

A quote from the article Argo posted:

West and Zampella were both awarded a salary of $420,000 with bonuses of $3.1 million each. The rest of the team certainly didn’t follow the stereotypical image of the downtrodden game developer, with most earning $75,000 to $150,000 and bringing in bonuses of $275,000 to $600,000.

And from a different article:

Several other high-ranking Infinity Ward staffers were lined up for serious pay cheques in 2009; software engineer Robert Field and Francesco Gigliotti boasted salaries of over $115,000 and projected bonuses of $603,067. Below that line, projected salaries were between $74,900 and $127,608, with projected bonuses between $278,486 and $556,972. These numbers jumped in 2010, too.

Yes, Infinity Ward was moving a shit-ton of product. But they also didn't have the benefit of exclusivity deals with Sony.

I'm not saying Hennig made $4M. Or even $1M. I'm saying Hennig, a very highly respected industry leader who has a key role in Sony's #1 system-selling franchise, was getting paid her worth.

 

[potatohead]

Thank you.

A quote from the article Argo posted:



And from a different article:



Yes, Infinity Ward was moving a shit-ton of product. But they also didn't have the benefit of exclusivity deals with Sony.

I'm not saying Hennig made $4M. Or even $1M. I'm saying Hennig, a very highly respected industry leader who has a key role in Sony's #1 system-selling franchise, was getting paid her worth.

Year most likely

 

[JonathanPower]

Because you don't have any idea about what you're talking about and are presenting solutions to a problem that wouldn't work because just to reiterate. You don't know anything about what you're talking about. You say the solution is simple, but consider this, if the solution was so simple, and there wasn't a shit ton of reasons not to just brute force it, way do you think this isn't done?

The solution itself is simple. What is not simple is implementing it correctly. It's not something you can brute force. It's a complex and delicate process that must be done very carefully in order to not screw things up. That's why I said you need to know how to properly run a company. You are acting as if these issues are restricted to the gaming industry when these are the most common issues in all kinds of businesses. I know these issues well.

P.S.
You think people haven't noticed that you've at every turn completely avoiding answering whether or not you have software development/programming experience? It's really transparent.

The people who actually run the company do not necessarily have programming experience. They mostly have business/financial experience. Obviously, they are all well documented on how software development works, but hiring new people is a business decision and as such it requires business/financial experience. Now, I don't have development/programming experience, but I do have business experience. Do you? Since you act as you really know what are you talking about I assume you have lots of experience in researching and analyzing financial information.

 

[Heavy_D206]

Working long hours doesn't really bother me. I worked 15 hours straight yesterday and I'm not even mad.

I try to work harder than everyone else in the building and I get the best promotions because of that.

I'm basically working my dream job now, and have reached the top of the mountain in my job field.

 

[Azih]

JP. Every industry is different and has different work flows and labour challenges. You do recognize this yes?

Have you heard of The Mythical Man Month?

 

[Azih]

Double post kinda

 

[Kieli]

Are you real?

You seriously believe the LEAD CREATIVE of Sony's #1 franchise wasn't pulling in $500K at the peak of her career? Base + bonus?

You understand that software engineers were making $700K at Infinity Ward in the Modern Warfare days, right?

But yeah, instead of actually addressing the points in my post, just focus on the only number I dropped in there that then invalidates my view of how the professional world works.

"lmfao" indeed.

Silicon Valley Engineers at Netflix, which pay among the highest salaries, top out at 300k.

What are YOU on?...