justsomeguy
Member
Fantastic post. This is how I try to lead my teams - I'm lucky to have supportive management (non-gaming).
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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Fantastic post. This is how I try to lead my teams - I'm lucky to have supportive management (non-gaming).
I appreciate the hard work people do to make these products. As I do for music, film, comics, books, etc. All forms of entertainment are hard fucking work.
I don't feel sorry for you though. It's your choice. Only you are accountable for you. "Doing it for the fans" is complete folly. The fans will turn on you in a second. Because they are the consumer. They consume. From one thing to the next in a society that demands we do so. So most of them do without consideration (lazy devs).
I appreciate your hard work, but I don't have to feel sorry for you. It was your choice. Your choice to put your family through it. Your choice to make the "sacrifices." Just don't make those choice "for the fans." Frankly, that's stupid and can come off looking for pity. Do it for the love of it and because its your current mission in life. No other reason is needed. When that is the reason, I as a fan, love and respect you more for it.
Meatyhooks
Neo Member
Wow. Really respect her candor.
wapplew
Member
We combat this by buy The Last Guardian and Gravity Rush 2.
More_Badass
Member
Partially is. It's a cyclically relationship in a way. The customers' demand for more, more, more, faster, is in part what drives these insane work hours and constant crunch, which in turn can negatively affect the quality of the game
JigglesBunny
Banned
One of the worst posts I have ever seen.
You have no idea how much work these people put in to make a game to entertain you. That little game in your profile picture wouldn't be here if it weren't for the incessant crunch Rockstar employees had to undergo just to get the damn thing running, let alone to make it as great as it is.
are you an adult with a full time job needed to support a family?
I know plenty of people who work in television who don't work 80 hour weeks. One of my friends builds the sets for NCIS, for example, and he works a normal 40 hour week.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I said "can" for a reason. But if you wanna crank out a project faster the first things you lookd at are staff increase and feature cutting assuming your onternal structure isnt so.fucked that your wastong huge portioms of time. In software it doesn't always work like that. In most jobs it doesnt work like that actually.
"Manage expectations". Largely they aren't going for something as ambitious as Hello Games. My question to you is why is it that AAA or Indie they all refenerence the insane hours and crunch?
Like I said. You are simifying. It's not blaming consumers tonsay the expectations are not reflective of the amount of required work. Consumers can buy w/e the fuck they want and say w/e the fuck they want. It doesm't mean what they are asking for is actually feasible.
More_Badass
Member
"Do it for the love of it" is the kind of mindset that has caused these practices to persist.
wild wild rice
Member
"I mean, Uncharted 1; a ten-hour game, no other modes... you can't make a game like that any more."
I wonder how long Last Guardian will be?
I wonder how long Last Guardian will be?
With the gaming industry taking in Hollywood levels of money, it's no surprise corporate greed and corruption prevent developers from being able to live normal, comfortable lives with decent work conditions. The entertainment industry as a whole has a problem with this. Like many posters mentioned prior, unionizing (or even discussing it) can be career suicide, so the alternative lies in indie development, however difficult that may be.
Truly, I believe there will come a point where AAA cannot feasibly sustain itself. The sheer demand of an ever-growing market coaxed into preorder gluttony by publishers and the big box retailers they make deals with has bred questionable work conditions on all fronts. Combined with nonsensical marketing budgets and unrealistic sales expectations, I feel more and more of those in the industry will find alternate, less corporate means of creative output, unless publishers start working towards correcting these abhorrent conditions.
Truly, I believe there will come a point where AAA cannot feasibly sustain itself. The sheer demand of an ever-growing market coaxed into preorder gluttony by publishers and the big box retailers they make deals with has bred questionable work conditions on all fronts. Combined with nonsensical marketing budgets and unrealistic sales expectations, I feel more and more of those in the industry will find alternate, less corporate means of creative output, unless publishers start working towards correcting these abhorrent conditions.
Quadraphonic
Member
Never.
Southern California is already an expensive place to work. They would have left here if they had to. They know what they need to get games made fairly and properly. I'm sure every producer and company out there has experience with outsourcing from other countries and they know exactly the quality of work they get back.
But people are too scared to take that chance.
Re: It's your choice
you don't just wake up one day and you're suddenly a programmer. Developers devote years and years to their craft, usually starting when they are in their teens. "It's your choice" like professional athletes have a choice of career. Sure, devs can quit their job and go work at McDonalds. But that would be miserable and soul crushing. When you've spent your whole life honing a skill, no, you don't really have a lot of choices about what you do. You get locked into what you know. People who make games are really good at what they do. That doesn't mean they'd be good at other jobs, as well.
I also question the rationale of someone who claims they love devs, but can't feel sorry for the shit conditions they work with. Sounds more to me like you love playing their games, not the devs themselves.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
unionize.
strike
strike
Gray Matter
Member
Interested to find out how the development of TLoU went any way similar to what she's describing.
Yep, I'd have left if I was her. Maybe she could handle it, but I couldn't, and wouldn't.
Last Guardian is hardly normal development, and actually it's genesis was during the era that birthed Uncharted 1. A game like Last Guardian probably wouldn't be greenlit by a big studio anymore these days.
charlequin
Banned
It's not mega-expensive because these are all salaried, exempt employees -- which means they don't get paid any overtime, which means their idiot pinhead bosses do some grade-school math and decide that if you make one employee work 80 hours a week, it's basically like getting two for the price of one.
In reality, even at 60 hours a week, employee productivity dips sharply. After a couple months of continuous 60 hour weeks, each employee is actually producing less total per week than they would have had they stayed at 40, in addition to their life basically being miserable. All the stuff about how this is the only way to produce great games or whatever is complete bullshit; better balanced workweeks to begin with would pay off much better over a whole multi-year dev cycle.
Yes, but the game industry employee base tends to combine the narcissistic entitlement of tech in general (where people think of themselves as unique special snowflakes too good to practice solidarity with the hoi polloi) with the inadvisable self-sacrifice of working in a passion field (where people love games so much they're willing to sabotage their own happiness and success to do so, and that means anyone who wants to be paid and treated well can get dumped in favor of another starry-eyed fan.) Trying to get people in the industry to unionize is a hell of an uphill battle.
*waves*
People in leadership positions need to be the ones to change this. I've worked places in this industry where people put in very long hours. There was never a direct mandate that you must come in on the weekend or you must stay until 10PM every night. Instead it was kind of a cultural thing where the boss would work late so everyone else would because they didn't want to be seen as the first ones out. It wasn't until I went to a company where the C-level team actively discouraged crunching that I saw that change.
Something else that actually brings some relief for this situation is the Games as a Service model. Instead of crunching toward a single release, you can plan things out and release features and events in a much more manageable way. This is a much healthier and less wasteful way to work.
Something else that actually brings some relief for this situation is the Games as a Service model. Instead of crunching toward a single release, you can plan things out and release features and events in a much more manageable way. This is a much healthier and less wasteful way to work.
Gotdatmoney
Member
"Do it for the love"
I swear to God poeople who say this tired ass line don't get that just because you love something it doesn't mean that the conditions surrounding it aren't bullshit and need to be changed. If people didnt endure the supreme bad you'd have no art no music and no progress in anything. So this "I appreciate your work but I don't give a fuck about your sacrafice is literally thee most poor ass attitude you can have.
To the people saying dont call out the consumer for their unrealistic expectations here is a prime example of a consumer who should not be pleased. The people behind the product dont matter. Just the package.
Not to sound like a Dick, but the compromise is pretty obvious. Especially if you are a big publisher like Nintendo, Sony, Ubisoft, EA, Square ect
1. A shared engine so that your whole workforce is up to speed on a technical level, and can easily swap between departments
2. Smaller teams on longer Dev cycles. Costs can stay the same and Consumers won't care how long it took to make provided there is a new game Next month.
3. Invest in time saving technologies (like Photogrametry)
4. Have a veteran team that comes in a month or so before a game is due out to polish it up. You release 10 games a year, and each game takes 100 people on a 4 year cycle. Then in the final month before development your "Polish" Team joins in to help get it ready. Splitting that 100 people's Anual salary across 10 games a year makes it the equivalent of Hiring 10 more people per game. Which is adding only an extra 2.5% to the total cost of the product on a 4 year cycle.
There are few downsides for a company like "Nintendo" or "Sony" with hardware to sell being structured like this. Because pumping out 10 games a year allows them first party content across a wide variety of genres. Which is ultimately a boon for their platform.
It makes less sense for 3rd parties, but there is clearly a financial equilibrium that can be met to keep everyone happy
More_Badass
Member
Does it matter?
It might do, but I've never heard of a full time game dev having salary tied to hours worked.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Sure, that one guy probably had a rough few weeks.
But it's not comparable to shipping a game every other year, completely beholden to publisher set deadlines. Most of Valve's output at this point is just semi-annual updates to existing games.
Unionizing seems to be the only clear path forward. Consumers simply don't care about anything other than the product they receive and they want it better and as cheap as possible. That part of it won't change. Management with bottom-line goals will do what they can to meet the evolving consumer expectations. Somebody has to throw a wrench into this and unfortunately it's on the people who once saw their job as a dream come true.
You could hope that talent will migrate to companies that boast a work-life balance and that it would ripple out to more AAA companies, but the demand and scale of demand seems to make that harder than other programming/software fields.
You could hope that talent will migrate to companies that boast a work-life balance and that it would ripple out to more AAA companies, but the demand and scale of demand seems to make that harder than other programming/software fields.
Of course it does!
Bullies looking to exploit them caused terrible work conditions to exist. How young the industry still is plays a part. Easier to take advantage of these men and women. Hard to protect yourself. That said, it's no secret how hard it is either. If you still step into that world knowing whats waiting you...you had better love it. Some say "Go Indie" but that doesn't make the work easier. You have to a certain type of person to DIY. Run the risk. It's the same in all walks of life. Indies are basically small business owners. Put themselves out there counter to the culture that drives the industry.
It's not so different for other artists though. Writers spend countless hours honing their craft. Actors do the same. Dancers. Illustrators. So on and so forth. Some have unions to protect them as well. Some don't.
"For the fans" isn't a reason though. They will never be satisfied and you will run yourself to the bone trying to do so.
Yep, Japanese work culture is know worldwide for being extremely toxic.
The Disposable Workers series of documentaries is a amazing insight of how people lives are affected. I recommend watching all of them
Japan's Disposable Workers
Edit: Here's direct link to the videos
Japan’s Disposable Workers: Overworked to Suicide
Japan’s Disposable Workers: Net Cafe Refugees
Japan’s Disposable Workers: Dumping Ground
TissueBox
Member
Honest but harsh truth -- for some is it worth it? Yes. But on the whole is it taxing enough to become unbearably disproportioned? Yes. In the modern AAA blockbuster development environment, making a great big polished game is as much a passion as it is a sentence. Blood, sweat, and tears is always fine, but crunching to see your work finished means you must believe in and love that work a lot and hopefully not be inclined to slave on, along with hundreds of other employees, on other products for years on end. Once or twice is manageable, albeit still grueling work, but the idea is to not start a pattern that will make for more bad examples than good...I assume it's hard for development processes to emerge from the final stretch with their staff feeling exhausted but aptly rewarded, instead of rewarded with apt exhaustion.
Because of that I respect these people; these are hundreds upon hundreds of people working day and night just on some stubborn code that will quantify anything from 3-5% to 10-25% of their game and it seems like it'll never, ever end. With that, hats off to the workers at Naughty Dog, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Square Enix, and to every wide-scale body of men and women soldiering the tough, stark land of game development -- because in the end, they too know they're making something that someone will play, and that in some small or big way it will matter as long as it is shipped, and that somewhere in that program was the hard long day they spent refining that technical lockjaw.
It doesn't individually excuse each game's problems, and games still generally suffer from modern-day oversights and neglect, but then again that can be true of nearly every generation. What saddens me is that, like Hennig said, the days of a game like Uncharted 1 may be long since gone, and an age of over-development and diminishing returns charges in. For the sake of all of us, here's to hoping some breakthrough tech can pave the way for a more efficient future..!! *raises Future Pizza*
Because of that I respect these people; these are hundreds upon hundreds of people working day and night just on some stubborn code that will quantify anything from 3-5% to 10-25% of their game and it seems like it'll never, ever end. With that, hats off to the workers at Naughty Dog, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Square Enix, and to every wide-scale body of men and women soldiering the tough, stark land of game development -- because in the end, they too know they're making something that someone will play, and that in some small or big way it will matter as long as it is shipped, and that somewhere in that program was the hard long day they spent refining that technical lockjaw.
It doesn't individually excuse each game's problems, and games still generally suffer from modern-day oversights and neglect, but then again that can be true of nearly every generation. What saddens me is that, like Hennig said, the days of a game like Uncharted 1 may be long since gone, and an age of over-development and diminishing returns charges in. For the sake of all of us, here's to hoping some breakthrough tech can pave the way for a more efficient future..!! *raises Future Pizza*
charlequin
Banned
Shittier than for the same exact job at a general-purpose software company.
The type of activity that guy practiced was not unique to him. I doubt you'd ever have expected people to have to crunch for a controller yet there you go. People at valve aren't just standing around doing nothing.
In what ways is it not comparable? Every project has milestone deadlines, every project has crunch time. What does it matter if you're staying up working 80 hours a week on a shipping game, or if you're spending 80 hours a week working on a milestone deadline for a non-shipping piece of hardware? You're still working 80 hours a week.
It only matters if you can retire after a couple years. What's the point of making a bunch of money if you don't have the time or life to do anything with it?
More_Badass
Member
I mean, usually a question like that in the context of a discussion like this tends to lead to the point of "worth it/not worth it for that kind of pay". When it isn't worth it regardless of the salary
Which is why I was asking if the salary really matters
Thanks! To be honest I could write a whole essay on this - I'm actually just starting up a new project so production processes are at the top of my thinking at the moment.
As an aside there was the usual scuttlebutt inside Sony about the insane crunch that Naughty Dog worked, but I had no idea it was that bad until Amy's interview. That being said, we had a studio visit a number of years back to find out how they kept shipping such critical and commercial successes, and the key takeaway was that they just worked really, really hard. This after we'd exported our own production processes to a number of other studios as an example of how to do things 'right'.
I respect her candor on this topic. As a medical resident I can relate to the long hours, low pay and working even when you're not at work. Sure she chose this, but that doesn't mean she can't be critical of the issues that plague that culture. I'm grateful there are people who love this enough to put up with it, and feel sorry for those that feel stuck,it sucks. Wellness is imoprtant and we should never criticize people who bring this issue up, it's not healthy to work like that if you don't have to.
"bunch" is a very unqualified word. I don't know how much is/was she making. IMHO, it's a fair game if compensated at least 2X as much.
Again, twice as much means she could afford a one-game dev cycle not working for anyone. Is it worth it for her, I don't know. But I think a lot of people will be interested.
Megalosaro
Banned
The Department of Lanor needs to come in and audit the fuck out of the industry.
Honestly, another collapse would do everyone some good. I thank God every day that I didn't got into this toxic industry.
Honestly, another collapse would do everyone some good. I thank God every day that I didn't got into this toxic industry.
That's illegal in the united states. You can't fire anyone for trying to set up a union.
So, if I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying, ND's working method is not the standard in Sony 1st party studios?
No it wouldn't. It would cause a flux of skilled workers with no jobs, and it would put people with bills and families to support out of work.
I see people on NeoGAF pining for a collapse all the time, and every single time someone does so, it sounds ignorant. This is a billion dollar industry, collapsing would be terrible.