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[A Link to the Past]

Everything is offensive! Ban everything! Plus, if we erase historic texts and symbols, all the bad stuff from history never happened!

I like that you make this argument in a thread that discusses a flag that is absolutely offensive and which should have its use curbed.

 

[silvermember]

Just erase history and pretend it never happened, that'll make it all better.

Except that is not erasing history. People can still own the flag if they want to, they can read about the confederacy in all U.S history books. The removal of the flag from government property is not even close to the removal from history. Actually, a lot of people would want people to know about America's past because people tend to have a very idealize version of America.

 

[Nairume]

I get that it's wrong. I'm saying you're painting a picture of racism without showing the pillars and symbolism for which it stood on.

You want to do a movie on racial segregation, but you don't want to have anyone in white hoods or burning crosses? How do you define what you're against?

It is how you use it. I feel like I'm a designer by stating all of this.

You're burning props and teaching utensils by doing this. You're basically burning books.

I'm not advocating for it never being used and certainly agree that Apple is being overzealous.

My comment is just pertaining to the actual historical symbolism of the flag.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I like that you make this argument in a thread that discusses a flag that is absolutely offensive and which should have its use curbed.

Unless it's used in its historical context.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Except that is not erasing history. People can still own the flag if they want to, they can read about the confederacy in all U.S history books. The removal of the flag from government property is not even close to the removal from history. Actually, a lot of people would want people to know about America's past because people tend to have a very idealize version of America.

I don't think he's talking about the U.S. Government buildings. Removing from a game about the civil war (even if they're stereotypical bad guys!) is a little ludicrous.

Like to use the example everyone's been using, is anyone offended when the Nazis in CoD use swastikas? I'm not, but I'd be offended if there was a swastika on my street corner.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Unless it's used in its historical context. You agree, don't you?

Yes, I agree. Apple made a statement expressing that they aren't intending to remove games that use it in a historical, non-offensive context.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yes, I agree. Apple made a statement expressing that they aren't intending to remove games that use it in a historical, non-offensive context.

Mhm, they kinda went overboard though by removing all the games.

 

[silvermember]

I don't think he's talking about the U.S. Government buildings. Removing from a game about the civil war (even if they're stereotypical bad guys!) is a little ludicrous.

What you said might be true, but his drive-by comments doesn't really indicate anything. I will go with my own interpretation.

Mhm, they kinda went overboard though by removing all the games.

The one who gave the order probably isn't the one who removed it, so the order probably wasn't very specific and lead to the removal of all things confederate.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Mhm, they kinda went overboard though by removing all the games.

A reversible act. It's pretty common in situations like this. The alternative, examining every game, is simply not feasible.

 

[Beelzebufo]

What you said might be true, but his drive-by comments doesn't really indicate anything. So I decided to go with the default, maybe next time he will avoid doing a drive by.

True, you could very well be right! I just try to assume the best, because I find it easier to believe I live in a world where most people don't willfully ignore the obvious racial associations of the Confederate Flag. It's a coping mechanism haha.

 

[Nairume]

As it stands, I think I could probably understand Apple just taking everything down if they are doing so with the intention of making sure that what they put back up only uses it for historical purposes.

That said, it wouldn't be awful if this meant that "historically accurate" Civil War games did do more to make sure that they were using the appropriate flags, and not just the Stars'n'Bars because that's what people know.

 

[Kinyou]

Yes, I agree. Apple made a statement expressing that they aren't intending to remove games that use it in a historical, non-offensive context.

Do you have link to that statement?

None of the news stories I found mention it

A reversible act. It's pretty common in situations like this. The alternative, examining every game, is simply not feasible.

But isn't that exactly what they have to do now?

 

[RiverBed]

What is this, Germany?

This post is sickening. Fuck off to the ignore list forever.

 

[Maybesew]

Do you have link to that statement?

None of the news stories I found mention it


But isn't that exactly what they have to do now?

"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines,” an Apple spokesperson told BuzzFeed News. "We are not removing apps that display the Confederate flag for educational or historical uses."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnpaczkow...g-confederate-flag-from-the-app-st#.nwdWy3jpW

 

[stufte]

This post is sickening. Fuck off to the ignore list forever.

Why?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Do you have link to that statement?

None of the news stories I found mention it


But isn't that exactly what they have to do now?

People who feel that their game was wrongly taken down can appeal.

Why?

South Park fan for one

ha cha cha

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

How historically relevant is the Battle Flag. It became popularized by the KKK and their sympathizers fight against the civil rights movement.

The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.

The National Flags of the Confederate States of America would be more historically correct. Those flags were definitely based on racism, but they would be appropriate in historical games.

Some quotes on the creation of the National Flags:

As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.

As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism.

 

[Fliesen]

Do you have link to that statement?

None of the news stories I found mention it


But isn't that exactly what they have to do now?

no, they only have to review the apps where a dev believes they were wrongly removed and should be made available again.

That should, by definition, be a subset.

There's plenty of games that have since been discontinued, games the dev might not care about anymore, or maybe apps / games where the dev themselves knows it wouldn't have a chance of getting back into the store.

If you say "Ok, that's it, that's it - everybody out, we'll let in people one by one" there's bound to be some that just don't bother lining up again, and you're guaranteed to have either checked every single one, or - those who haven't checked - haven't been overlooked.

 

[TetraGenesis]

You are right that if someone wants to stake the stance that the flag was about state's rights, they need to consider the historical context for what rights they were fighting for.

Context matters. So even if someone takes the flag to personally mean "states rights" to them, okay, that's fine, BUT they also can't deny the context tied to that -- and why that would offend other people. But anyways, I think the war aside, it's still important to note HOW the flag has been used throughout history. It's kind of like how words evolve over time, and stop being used because they become offensive or out of date. The same thing applies to this flag. It's been used as a racist icon/expression for years and year and years. And if someone doesn't want to understand that, I don't know what else you can say to them.

This is legit as fuck.

 

[Kinyou]

People who feel that their game was wrongly taken down can appeal.

Don't you think that everyone who had their app pulled will appeal?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnpaczkow...g-confederate-flag-from-the-app-st#.nwdWy3jpW

Sources close to Apple say the company is working actively with game developers affected by the Confederate flag ban to get their apps back into the App Store as quickly as possible. But in order to do that, developers will need to remove the Confederate flag from their games or replace it with something else.

That sounds to me like removing ultimate general wasn't accident.

 

[BacklashWave534]

Is crazy to think the the Japanese have gotten over the fact that we nuked them but we sit here and talk about how offended we are by a piece of cloth that represented people that are all dead. I guess some cultures are just more mature than others. The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did. Maybe we should spend more time determing why there are so many crazy people his generation.

 

[Fliesen]

Don't you think that everyone who had their app pulled will appeal?

why wouldn't they appeal if they think their app should be on the app store, still?
would you miss an app that not even the dev considers to have merit?

 

[Stallion Dan]

we're way beyond this in this thread. If you won't even bother to read like 10% of this thread, why even bother with the driveby. :/

I skimmed first couple of pages and the last couple, and disagree.

 

[Kinyou]

why wouldn't they appeal if they think their app should be on the app store, still?
would you miss an app that not even the dev considers to have merit?

Not sure what you mean.

What I'm saying is that if someone was making money with their app they're obviously going to appeal because then they have a chance of getting back onto the store. There's no downside to appealing.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Not sure what you mean.

What I'm saying is that if someone was making money with their app they're obviously going to appeal because then they have a chance of getting back onto the store. There's no downside to appealing.

Not everyone is going to appeal though, and if the appeal is done in bad faith, it could get a person in trouble hypothetically.

 

[Jinkies]

The spirit of free speech is the right to speak your mind without the government censoring you (unless the speech is dangerous).

Incorrect, that is the law of free speech.

The "spirit" of free speech is not to self-censor nor use your power to censor others out of principle.

 

[Kinyou]

Not everyone is going to appeal though, and if the appeal is done in bad faith, it could get a person in trouble hypothetically.

How?

 

[maniac-kun]

Really dumb move.

Context is key. If it's used to represent historical events how is that offensive? Makes no sense.

It's like if you want to make a WW2 game but can't have any Nazi symbols or something.

Welcome to Germany.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Incorrect, that is the law of free speech.

The "spirit" of free speech is not to self-censor nor use your power to censor others out of principle.

Fair enough, but we generally err on the side of caution when it comes to Swastikas and Wolfenstein does pretty well for itself. We're going through growing pains of fixing a problem, there's inevitably going to be challenges along the way.

How?

A person doesn't simply have carte blanche to produce games on iOS devices. A person who wastes Apple's time in bad faith could find themselves banned from producing games for the store.

 

[BocoDragon]

Is crazy to think the the Japanese have gotten over the fact that we nuked them but we sit here and talk about how offended we are by a piece of cloth that represented people that are all dead. I guess some cultures are just more mature than others. The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did. Maybe we should spend more time determing why there are so many crazy people his generation.

Japan started censoring decapitations after a murder a decade ago. They also infamously censor genitals in porn.

All societies are fucked up.

In my ideal society we wouldn't give into popular demands to remove content. I think this whole "ban confederate flag" thing is rather regressive, even though it comes from good intentions...

 

[Nairume]

The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did.

The flag didn't physically kill those people, but the ideology behind it contributed.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

As far as games trying to replicate the civil war go I dont have a huge problem with tge flag being there. Similar to WW2 symbols. But like, the flag is a piece of shit and we all know it was errected as a symbol of racism so anyone being naive enough to pretend it isn't. . . You should stop.

 

[Cyrano]

Maybe have a think about what this is before making comments like "Welcome to Germany."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzqQgAJd6Xo

The Apple Store is not the government and it is not "historical revisionism" to remove apps from a store anymore than Home Depot deciding not to sell hammers is "tool revisionism."

 

[plasmawave]

This is why context matters.

 

[Bastables]

How historically relevant is the Battle Flag. It became popularized by the KKK and their sympathizers fight against the civil rights movement.



The National Flags of the Confederate States of America would be more historically correct. Those flags were definitely based on racism, but they would be appropriate in historical games.

Some quotes on the creation of the National Flags:

Yeah pretty much this, I like how all the southern pride horrids rabbit on about revisionism while defending the revisionist use of a battle standard of the KKK/N army of Virginia as the flag of a racist, slave holding/raping/killing Treasonous confederacy.
Actual non revisionist flags of the treasonous States:

"The Stars and Bars" (1861–1863)

"The Stainless Banner" (1863–1865)

"The Blood-Stained Banner" (1865)

If you're ok with celebrating (your racist fan worship) or just actual historical use in video games/media use the flags above.

 

[Jinkies]

Fair enough, but we generally err on the side of caution when it comes to Swastikas and Wolfenstein does pretty well for itself. We're going through growing pains of fixing a problem, there's inevitably going to be challenges along the way.

I agree, and one of those challenges is in the prevention of oversteering, especially in the name of dictating the "okayness" of ideas in an expressive work such as a game.

 

[Kinyou]

A person doesn't simply have carte blanche to produce games on iOS devices. A person who wastes Apple's time in bad faith could find themselves banned from producing games for the store.

Fair enough, but I wonder how they could even prove bad faith.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

History is history. Trying to censor it is idiotic and a waste of time.

Focus on eliminating its use today.

 

[Llyranor]

Is crazy to think the the Japanese have gotten over the fact that we nuked them but we sit here and talk about how offended we are by a piece of cloth that represented people that are all dead. I guess some cultures are just more mature than others. The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did. Maybe we should spend more time determing why there are so many crazy people his generation.

Are Japanese people still being systematically oppressed and discriminated against on a large scale by America?

 

[Raistlin]

i'm quite sure that it's somewhere within the app store dev license agreements that Apple is free to kick out your app without having to reimburse you.



i am still suggesting this is the only way the folks at Apple consider it feasible.
one broad automatised removal and individual, on-demand re-approval. It's like some company resetting ALL THEIR USERS passwords after being hacked.

with the astronomic rate of App store submissions and reviews, i would assume it'd be a logistical nightmare to be looking at every single app before kicking it out of the app store. There's most likely plenty of apps that have since been pretty much discontinued that are now banned and nobody will care to have them re-approved.



i don't think you can replace the confederate flag with anything here.
It's a really special case. It's the losing party of a civil war, a party that has fought to keep the status quo of the systematic enslavement of another 'race'.
The fact that many within the southern states still consider it part of their "heritage", their "identity" is very problematic. The fact that some still consider it a symbol of mindless, innocent redneckism when it's actually a callback to times where humans still held humans as slaves is nothing to be celebrated.
So no, i don't think you could easily replace it to see how stupid it is. I think the confederate flag is a very particular issue.

s
m
h

 

[Temporal Mess]

While I agree with the sentiment (the Confederate flag is often used by neo-nazis in Europe in lieu of the swastika because the swastika is illegal in many countries), I think extending that to historical games is a little far. Unless the games have a very obvious agenda in how they present the confederates, I don't think it's quite right to ban games who use it purely on historical grounds.

Out of curiosity, do games that depict Nazis (as enemies or otherwise) generally use the swastika to represent them/in their designs?

 

[DeepEnigma]

While I agree with the sentiment (the Confederate flag is often used by neo-nazis in Europe in lieu of the swastika because the swastika is illegal in many countries), I think extending that to historical games is a little far. Unless the games have a very obvious agenda in how they present the confederates, I don't think it's quite right to ban games who use it purely on historical grounds.

Out of curiosity, do games that depict Nazis (as enemies or otherwise) generally use the swastika to represent them/in their designs?

Yes, but a few have censored themselves cause of localization, and used the iron cross in replacement.

 

[Enzom21]

Is crazy to think the the Japanese have gotten over the fact that we nuked them but we sit here and talk about how offended we are by a piece of cloth that represented people that are all dead. I guess some cultures are just more mature than others. The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did. Maybe we should spend more time determing why there are so many crazy people his generation.

What culture are you talking about that is less mature than the Japanese?

 

[Bastables]

History is history. Trying to censor it is idiotic and a waste of time.

Focus on eliminating its use today.

No it's not "History" as popular history i.e. Civil war video games are using the incorrect flag that is explicitly tied to anti segregationist moments in the 1960s. Every game/media that uses the Northern Army of Virginia's battle standard (out side of the army, KKK, various hate groups/individuals and Southern states post 60s) is being explicitly revisionist.

Any game that is using the "dixie flag" as the Flag of the Confederate States is misrepresenting History. Just by existing and it's use the dixie flag gives lie to the idea "History is history".

 

[Temporal Mess]

Yes, but a few have censored themselves cause of localization, and used the iron cross in replacement.

Ah, I assume most of those localizations were in Europe, where such things are generally a sensitive subject, for obvious reasons.

Anyway, publishers and platforms that allow use of the swastika to represent Nazis should also allow the confederate flag to represent the confederacy. Again, as long as it's not being used with a certain agenda in mind, I don't have a problem with it being used to represent the army that fought under it. But I'm not American so maybe I don't really get it. All I really know is that it was a symbol for the guys who wanted to keep slavery, and that's the association it has with me.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

No it's not "History" as popular history i.e. Civil war video games are using the incorrect flag that is explicitly tied to anti segregationist moments in the 1960s. Every game/media that uses the Northern Army of Virginia's battle standard is being explicitly revisionist.

Any game that is using the "dixie flag" as the Flag of the Confederate States is misrepresenting History. Just by existing and it's use the dixie flag gives lie to the idea " History is history".

So anything that misrepresents history should be banished?

 

[Bastables]

So anything that misrepresents history should be banished?

It should be called out as wrong and an active lie especially when it's actually tied to segregationist moments in the 60s because southern states still hate blacks.

Good job dropping but "muh history line".

 

[Gastone]

Yeah, lets get rid of that nasty flag, while we totally ignore the ridiculous gun laws...

 

[PMS341]

Is crazy to think the the Japanese have gotten over the fact that we nuked them but we sit here and talk about how offended we are by a piece of cloth that represented people that are all dead. I guess some cultures are just more mature than others. The flag didn't kill people the other day, the nut job psycho path did. Maybe we should spend more time determing why there are so many crazy people his generation.

People are "crazy" for many reasons, sometimes too many to pinpoint. People can seem crazy when they act irrational, which is also brought on by many factors - stress, anger, confusion, etc. Living in the US , it's easy (and of course unfortunate) to see why many people act this way.

Taking steps towards being a "mature" culture involves taking steps to eliminate hate, bigotry, and racism. If removing the flag, a symbol of exactly the type of "immature" mentality that needs to be purged from the country, will benefit others and put a dent in bullshit "Southern Pride", then it is exactly what should happen.

 

[Bastables]

Yeah, lets get rid of that nasty flag, while we totally ignore the ridiculous gun laws...

You should do both.