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[Audioboxer]

You seem to avoid the distinction of personal agency here.
If a woman doesn't want to wear a Burqa, if a Muslim woman wants to go around in a bikini, the law should absolutely support and protect her (Same for LGBT rights) from any repercussion.
However if a woman wants to wear the burqa, whether that is internalized misoginy or not, you can't be the one to force her not to.
If you want to use the gay analogy, if a closeted homosexual doesn't feel comfortable coming out because of internalized homophobia, the government shouldn't be the one to force them to do so.

The government/law will be. Not that poster individually. Societies aren't ever truly free, there are always social norms or even minor laws directing humans on how to behave, act, and yes, even dress.

Also as countless others will probably say to you, gay analogies here are incredibly silly. One is biological, one is choice (religion/clothing).

 

[UrbanRats]

Being gay is not a choice like being religious.

Neither is being born in X culture.

Is "internalized misoginy" only an argument when it's used to override someone's will?
I mean the entire argument so far is that women can't choose because they have internalized a toxic aspect of the culture.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

As I mentioned in another thread where this subject came up, I'm against the use of the burqa as I believe it is oppressive to women, but I don't think foreign countries banning it is the way to liberate these women.

foreign countries?!

 

[Azih]

Only the Muslims who think the burqa is an acceptional piece of clothing in a Western liberal democracy will feel marginalized by this, which is the intent.

I'm Muslim. I don't know anyone who wears a burqa. I think women should decide for themselves what they can and cannot wear. I feel threatened and marginalized by this.

I guess you want me to 'go back to where I come from' or something Metrotab.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Neither is being born in X culture.

Is "internalized misoginy" only an argument when it's used to override someone's will?
I mean the entire argument so far is that women can't choose because they have internalized a toxic aspect of the culture.

No, the argument is also that they can't choose because their environment would not accept their decision.

 

[UrbanRats]

The government/law will be. Not that poster individually. Societies aren't ever truly free, there are always social norms or even minor laws directing humans on how to behave, act, and yes, even dress.

Also as countless others will probably say to you, gay analogies here are incredibly silly. One is biological, one is choice (religion/clothing).

I didn't start the gay analogy, I was pointing out disingenuously it was used.

Also yeah laws apply at some point, where we draw that line in the sand is what we're arguing about.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Good, anything that covers your face almost completely should be banned

This.

Showing your face is the minimum, for security reasons, and also for respect. Burqa is a sign of woman oppression.

 

[Metrotab]

So there's even a GAF defense force for the burqa wow

Burqa defense forces, like most "cultural relativity" aspects, are a very left-wing phenomenon. It's not that surprising to see it on GAF.

 

[psychowave]

foreign countries?!

Maybe I should've said foreign societies (as in, those where Islam isn't the main religion)? English isn't my first language, so maybe I fucked up.

 

[Kthulhu]

"Turns on TV"

Yeah, we are doing ok, thanks

Right wingers always go for the weakest minority first. You idiots are letting yourselves get divided. They're gonna eventually come for you.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Better then saying: "well, figure it out on your own, not my fucking problem" like you did.

Again, not what I'm saying. These women should be given plenty of access to shelters, support groups etc. should they CHOOSE to remove the burqa and be met with violence or abuse. But many of these women have come from societies where they're raised to think they should be covered in public. Telling them "you're being oppressed, we're here to save you" just comes across as paternalistic. Europe is not the cultural and enlightened centre of the world.

No, the argument is also that they can't choose because their environment would not accept their decision.

Happily they're in Austria, so there's plenty of opportunities to relinquish it should they choose to. Don't be the French police officer telling the woman in a burqini to derobe because it's 'offensive'.

 

[Azih]

Burqa defense forces, like most "cultural relativity" aspects, are a very left-wing phenomenon. It's not that surprising to see it on GAF.

It's personal liberty, not cultural relativity.

 

[onken]

Okay Bill Maher. I didn't realize you had a GAF account.

2/10

 

[T.O.P]

I guess you want me to 'go back to where I come from' or something Metrotab.

That's pretty fuckin uncalled for wow

 

[Pusherman]

Bet you half the folks defending the burka would also defend female genital mutation given the chance.

The burka is oppressive as fuck and belongs in history books alongside the rule of thumb and chastity belts.

Defending an article of clothing that adult women, including women not raised in oppressive households or religious communities, wear voluntarily is very different from defending the act of forcibly removing the clitoris of small girls. Like, for fuck's sake, you get the difference, right?

There are women who've had their genitals mutilated that actually defend the tradition. They have every right to do so but not the right to force it on their children. Similarly, if schools or neighbors suspect that a child is made to wear something he or she doesn't want to wear child protective services should immediately be contacted. But there isn't some widespread problem in the west of little girls wearing face-veils because of their parents. Instead, we're talking about a piece of clothing worn by adults that have let their voices be heard and continue to tell us they do so voluntarily. And seeing as how many people doubt foreign women can make decisions of their own I'll again mention that those women include converted ones as well.

 

[Audioboxer]

I didn't start the gay analogy, I was pointing out disingenuously it was used.

Also yeah law apply at some point, where we draw that line in the sand is what were arguing about.

Clothing, or therein a lack of (nudity) has always been under scrutiny/debate. Usually, when we get to the fringes of society (nudists or every single piece of visible flesh being covered), we start to debate. Like it or not in the case of the burqa it has ties to ISIS and history using it to oppress women and put them in their place, so that comes into the equation when a society discusses whether or not it will approve of it being worn. Those trying to frame this as it just being a piece of clothing someone created for a fashion show are being so disingenuous it hurts. At least admit what it symbolises, to be honest. After that we then have to tackle practicalities in a society, such as not being identifiable in any way, and how it may be destructive to integration and social norms.

 

[Azih]

That's pretty fuckin uncalled for wow

He said he wanted me marginalized. Straight up.

 

[LionPride]

Burqa defense forces, like most "cultural relativity" aspects, are a very left-wing phenomenon. It's not that surprising to see it on GAF.

I'm sorry I'll defend the ability of 100 people to wear a burqa because I don't have the right to shame them for doing it

 

[Kayhan]

I'm Muslim. I don't know anyone who wears a burqa. I think women should decide for themselves what they can and cannot wear. I feel threatened and marginalized by this.

I guess you want me to 'go back to where I come from' or something Metrotab.

You are not the victim here. The women being forced to hide themselves behind a burqa so men can better control them are the victims.

 

[azyless]

Burqa defense forces, like most "cultural relativity" aspects, are a very left-wing phenomenon. It's not that surprising to see it on GAF.

Not really. The vast majority of left wing voters are against full face covering.

I'm Muslim. I don't know anyone who wears a burqa. I think women should decide for themselves what they can and cannot wear. I feel threatened and marginalized by this.

You are an exception even among (western) muslims.

 

[Kthulhu]

No, the argument is also that they can't choose because their environment would not accept their decision.

So instead you say "fuck it let's just take away the choice"?

Shouldn't you try using a scalpel before you try the hacksaw?

 

[Metrotab]

I'm Muslim. I don't know anyone who wears a burqa. I think women should decide for themselves what they can and cannot wear. I feel threatened and marginalized by this.

I guess you want me to 'go back to where I come from' or something Metrotab.

Why?

And you are free to stay, wherever you are. But don't expect the more uncouth aspects of your religion to be free from criticism. Religion is not a shield for oppressive practices.

Not really. The vast majority of left wing voters are against full face covering.

Correct. But I've yet to see a right-wing version of the burqa defense, even though the "sign of modesty" should appeal to the more socially conservative electorate.

 

[UrbanRats]

The law already supported and protected her. But that wasn't enough, so it seems we now go towards harsher measures. Would be good if it wasn't needed, but the problem doesn't go away on its own.

If they are experiencing that sort of abuse at home, banning the burqa isn't going to solve it either.
One repercussion could simply be now those women won't be allowed to leave the house at all.

I mean I certainly don't have the silver bullet here, cultural integration is a hard and laborious process, I don't claim to have it solved, but banning the Burqa is putting the cart in front of the horses, IMO.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Maybe I should've said foreign societies (as in, those where Islam isn't the main religion)? English isn't my first language, so maybe I fucked up.

Islamic countries have also taken steps to combat the burqa. Morocco has banned the production and import of it for example. Chad (50% Muslim) has banned it. Egypt was looking at it, but I don't know the current progress.

Again, not what I'm saying. These women should be given plenty of access to shelters, support groups etc. should they CHOOSE to remove the burqa and be met with violence or abuse. But many of these women have come from societies where they're raised to think they should be covered in public. Telling them "you're being oppressed, we're here to save you" just comes across as paternalistic. Europe is not the cultural and enlightened centre of the world.


Happily they're in Austria, so there's plenty of opportunities to relinquish it should they choose to. Don't be the French police officer telling the woman in a burqini to derobe because it's 'offensive'.

And you don't see anything wrong with the bolded, upholding those things and say: well, this is OK?

So instead you say "fuck it let's just take away the choice"?

Shouldn't you try using a scalpel before you try the hacksaw?

Please give an example of the scalpel that haven't been used in European countries over the past few decades of Muslim integration?

 

[Azih]

You are not the victim here.

I am very clearly arguing that a lot of Muslims will feel threatened and marginalized by this. Metrotab responded with basically a "good"

The women being forced to hide themselves behind a burqa so men can better control them are the victims.

So pass laws against coercive clothing and leave the ones who choose to wear it alone.

 

[psychowave]

Islamic countries have also taken steps to combat the burqa. Morocco has banned the production and import of it for example. Chad (50% Muslim) has banned it. Egypt was looking at it, but I don't know the current progress.

I didn't know this, I thought it was exclusively Western countries that had any form of legislation on the topic. Thanks for the info.

 

[LionPride]

I am very clearly arguing that a lot of Muslims will feel threatened and marginalized by this. Metrotab responded with basically a "good"


So pass laws against coercive clothing and leave the ones who choose to wear it alone.

Yeah, like if someone chooses to wear it...what am I gonna do shame them? No, it was their choice. Metrotab is being a bit of a tool

 

[psychowave]

So pass laws against coercive clothing and leave the ones who choose to wear it alone.

How could you even regulate this?

 

[7DollarHagane]

What nonsense. All that will do is make them feel unwanted and disrespected, making integration more difficult, not less so. And if someone is being forced to wear it against their will, now that they're not allowed to wear it, they'll just be forced to stay home and now allowed to go out at all, further isolating them and thus making things worse for them if anything. There's no benefit to this other than people being terrified and losing their minds over a piece of cloth (which, while it can and indeed is used to oppress, is only a symptom of that oppression and thus removing it changes nothing and doesn't actually benefit those women's lives in any way--all it changes is that people don't have to see it in public anymore, but the oppression itself remains unabated) not having to look at it anymore I guess. But for the women themselves, there is no gain. Absolutely none.

But isn't it more likely that women living under a miserable situation where they can't go out in public except covered entirely will be fed up and reject that kind of oppression when that turns into they can't leave the house?

Plus this is Austria. They live there now. There has to be some adaptation on both sides to cultural differences. In Austria people don't walk around fully covered by cloth head to toe.

Overall it's something that should be discouraged and moved into the history books.

I don't think it should be forcibly removed, but using it in public could lead to questions by law enforcement.

 

[UrbanRats]

Clothing, or therein a lack of (nudity) has always been under scrutiny/debate. Usually, when we get to the fringes of society (nudists or every single piece of visible flesh being covered), we start to debate. Like it or not in the case of the burqa it has ties to ISIS and history using it to oppress women and put them in their place, so that comes into the equation when a society discusses whether or not it will approve of it being worn. Those trying to frame this as it just being a piece of clothing someone created for a fashion show are being so disingenuous it hurts. At least admit what it symbolises, to be honest. After that we then have to tackle practicalities in a society, such as not being identifiable in any way, and how it may be destructive to integration and social norms.

Have you read my post in the thread? I don't think you have.
I don't think the Burqa is a "normal" piece of clothing.
I think cultural integration and shifts takes more tact and nuance than just banning people from their controversial piece of clothing.
I mean seriously go back and read what I posted, I'm just repeating myself here.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Not really. The vast majority of left wing voters are against full face covering.

I would expect this too.

I'm sorry I'll defend the ability of 100 people to wear a burqa because I don't have the right to shame them for doing it

It's not about shame. What about your right to see the face of those you are talking to?

You realize that bending over things like that are, in some part, reason for the trouble we are in right now? Most people I know are open to cultural variety and immigration - but they have some limits and preoccupations that must be taken into account.

burqa is a no go here, any party who would support it would just give munitions to far right parties.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

The very fact that only women - never men - are required to wear these in some cultures is solid proof that it is all about control and misogyny.

The Qu'ran encourages men to dress modestly too, to observe hijab, showing no skin, not accentuating bodily shape, and walking as if to not draw any attention.

But as patently demonstrated before, the stronger burqa laws aren't immune to challenge, and society gradually shifts. I'm sorry you're so Euro-centric you can't understand that some people grow up in different countries to your own.

 

[Audioboxer]

Have you read my post in the thread? I don't think you have.
I don't think the Burqa is a "normal" piece of clothing.
I think cultural integration and shifts takes more tact and nuance than just banning people from their controversial piece of clothing.
I mean seriously go back and read what I posted, I'm just repeating myself here.

I wasn't aiming that at you, but others in here bringing up hoodies and other pieces of clothing as if they are comparable.

As for tact and nuance, many countries have been trying for many years to support integration, and have spent a lot of money on it. I don't know why some are acting like immigration just became a thing last week and there hasn't been generations of it.

 

[LionPride]

I would expect this too.



It's not about shame. What about your right to see the face of those you are talking to?

You realize that bending over things like that are, in some part, reason for the trouble we are in right now? Most people I know are open to cultural variety and immigration - but they have some limits and preoccupations that must be taken into account.

burqa is a no go here, any party who would support it would just give munitions to far right parties.

If their wearing a burqa it's a cultural/religious thing right? I acknowledge that in my mind and continue talking to whomever I'm talking to. I don't care about most people you know, I'm having a convo with you. I support the ability of a person to wear what they wish to wear. Women can make up their own mind and choose to wear a burqa if they want

 

[Azih]

Why?

Because I am a Muslim who thinks women should be able to wear what they choose in a society that values personal liberty. You explicitly said I should be marginalized right in this very thread. How can I not feel threatened by that?

Also because this feeds the "Islam is bad" narrative. And is a barely disguised dog whistle that promotes suspicion of me and mine.

Because the demographic that me and mine belong to have become yet again the political pinata of choice. Bash us and votes come out.

All over a law that will, based on prior evidence, do no good and will do a lot of bad.

 

[Pusherman]

Islamic countries have also taken steps to combat the burqa. Morocco has banned the production and import of it for example. Chad (50% Muslim) has banned it. Egypt was looking at it, but I don't know the current progress.

Why do you keep using oppressive regimes as examples for us to follow? Like I want European countries to start acting like fucking Egypt or Morocco. I also don't care what the grand muftis of Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Isis have to say about anything. What's important are the opinions and beliefs of the women wearing a face-veil in Europe.

I've yet to see any proof that the people in favor of a ban like this are actually listening to women wearing a face-veil or genuinely concerned for the women involved who, just as a reminder, are western muslim women and not Syrians, Afghanis or Saudis. I'm a a huge proponent of personal liberty and as long as I see women defending their right to wear an article of clothing I'll stand by them. All this talk about being forced by their environment does just not bear out when it concerns women living in the west. I don't doubt that family pressure plays a role for some but there are plenty of examples of women that still wear a face-veil that didn't have a family or community telling them do so. Quite the opposite, there are women who defied their family and surroundings by deciding to wear one. So how is restricting their freedom helping them?

 

[LionPride]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

 

[MadJackChurchill]

And you don't see anything wrong with the bolded, upholding those things and say: well, this is OK?

And you snatching their traditions away from them and saying "that's oppressive, we're forcing you to be free" is totally OK? Mate. Read what Azih is saying, because they actually have to deal with this.

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

Ego. They would scream if they went to Flushing in New York and noticed that the majority of the signs are written in traditional Chinese and Korean.

 

[The Artisan]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

i'm gonna have to agree with you there. well, i don't know about a ban, but i'm not fond of completely covering your face in public on a daily basis

 

[the_batman]

clothing like that are a disgrace to women who've been brainwashed into thinking it's required for them to wear it by the quran, it isn't, and that it's not just something created for men to be able to control them. they'll even tell you they wear it by choice, but really why would anyone want to wear something like that.

but i wish there was a way to educate people about this instead of just banning it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And you snatching their traditions away from them and saying "that's oppressive, we're forcing you to be free" is totally OK? Mate. Read what Azih is saying, because they actually have to deal with this.

If your tradition is misogynistic and sexist, then yes, you can throw that tradition away.

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

We are talking about one specific thing here, not leaving behind all your traditions and own culture. But if you move to a new country, you need to adapt in some ways.

Why do you keep using oppressive regimes as examples for us to follow? Like I want European countries to start acting like fucking Egypt or Morocco. I also don't care what the grand muftis of Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Isis have to say about anything. What's important are the opinions and beliefs of the women wearing a face-veil in Europe.

He mentioned Islamic countries, I gave him a few examples to show this wasn't a pure European thing.

 

[LionPride]

And you snatching their traditions away from them and saying "that's oppressive, we're forcing you to be free" is totally OK? Mate. Read what Azih is saying, because they actually have to deal with this.

It's not like history has had a problem occur whenever people are like "That's oppressive/Savagery! We'll force you to be free!" Regardless of someone's culture or something...

 

[Audioboxer]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

What is it? It's how life works. You go to live in a new country, you usually have to respect the laws. Said country will no doubt try its best to help and educate you, but sure, at the end of the day you might need to leave some things behind. Like it or not many do things in certain countries other countries will not tolerate. A lot of this in the modern era is around the oppression, abuse and intolerance of women.

clothing like that are a disgrace to women who've been brainwashed into thinking it's required for them to wear it by the quran, it isn't, and that it's not just something created for men to be able to control them. they'll even tell you they wear it by choice, but really why would anyone want to wear something like that.

but i wish there was a way to educate people about this instead of just banning it.

As I said above we do try to educate, and governments spend lots of money. Some of those on the fringes just don't want to or can't assimilate and end up living in enclosed off communities. Usually it's the men forcing the women not to be able to assimilate because they don't belong around Western men/women and have no individuality.

 

[Azih]

i'm gonna have to agree with you there. well, i don't know about a ban, but i'm not fond of completely covering your face in public on a daily basis

"I don't like thing" isn't *good enough* as basis for legislation.

I don't like the damn thing either. *But that doesn't matter*

 

[Dude Abides]

The burqa is a nasty backwards cultural practice but you can't really make people join the modern world by force.

 

[LionPride]

What is it? It's how life works. You go to live in a new country, you usually have to respect the laws. Said country will no doubt try its best to help and educate you, but sure, at the end of the day you might need to leave some things behind. Like it or not many do things in certain countries other countries will not tolerate. A lot of this in the modern era is around the oppression, abuse and intolerance of women.

And it's kind of oppressive to disregard the fact that some women do this shit outta choice. That they do it after doing research and choose to wear a burqa. Because they can.

I may not like it, but I won't say "Don't wear that, I'll save you!" Cuz that's fucking dumb

 

[Jay Sosa]

Fucking stupid. I didn't know France banned it either, which is probably even stupider considering France is better than Austria.

oh the irony

 

[MadJackChurchill]

What is it? It's how life works. You go to live in a new country, you usually have to respect the laws. Said country will no doubt try its best to help and educate you, but sure, at the end of the day you might need to leave some things behind. Like it or not many do things in certain countries other countries will not tolerate. A lot of this in the modern era is around the oppression, abuse and intolerance of women.

Another part of life is understanding that not everyone fits into tidy little boxes for you to categorise. And that some people are different, and won't change because you tell them to change what they're wearing. Oh yeah, and not everyone in society is united and uniform. We're divided by race, class, creed, area, dialect, morals, traditions. Being able to understand and appreciate differences is a part of growing.

 

[Bl@de]

Good.

 

[Audioboxer]

And it's kind of oppressive to disregard the fact that some women do this shit outta choice. That they do it after doing research and choose to wear a burqa. Because they can.

Societies regulate a lot of things people want to do by choice. That's life. Apart from the "choice" argument being on shaky grounds, even if you can find one woman who is scientifically provable to be acting on sheer choice and absolutely no oppression/force, that's still not a complete hand-wave for a society. As I said in the first sentence, we still regulate a lot of things people may want to do by choice.

Another part of life is understanding that not everyone fits into tidy little boxes for you to categorise. And that some people are different, and won't change because you tell them to change what they're wearing. Oh yeah, and not everyone in society is united and uniform. We're divided by race, class, creed, area, dialect, morals, traditions. Being able to understand and appreciate differences is a part of growing.

While all of that is true, societal norms and expectations always end up with regulation and laws around them. Other than living in a state of anarchy, no one is ever free to just do as they damn please. Hence why we debate things like the burqa, especially due to its ties to Islamism, ISIS and a history of oppression.