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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
The cognitive dissonance only occurs if he is remembering drastically different things up to that point. The whole death/new Booker thing comes with the package that the new Booker does everything the same so there really wouldn't be much dissonance. Each Booker doesn't seem to realize that he died so that information wouldn't be imparted.
Arch Stanton
Neo Member
Yeah, I felt the same way and it's truncation was a little disappointing to me, especially when so much of Infinite, and Bioshock before it, was so well thought out. I can only speculate on this, but it feels that that's one of the parts where the game was cut for purposes of time, story, etc. But I think the main thing that bugged me about that part was the reductionist take on how the game says that Daisy is basically just the same as Comstock. Given that Levine and his team are so smart and are pretty good writers, this kind of reductionism was a let down.
Of course, actual history has shown that their point -- that extreme power can corrupt anyone, regardless of ideology; that extreme right-wing and extreme left-wing often lead to the same road of ruination (c.f. Nazi Germany and Stalinist Soviet Union for very obvious examples). But where the game took time to develop Comstock, I wish at least some time was reserved for Fitzroy and company (I realize that she's not going to get as much screen time as Comstock, but what we see of her in terms of her "turn" to outright villainy was rather flimsy).
Since there's supposed to be three story-based DLCs for Infinite (it's three, correct?), I'd like to see one of them address the Daisy situation, perhaps with the player playing as a Vox Populi "Revolutionary Booker". What if we saw something like:
We still have that tear at the mid-point of the game that brings us into the Vox revolution (which was cool), but then maybe we have another tear where the Vox have ALREADY gained power and are slaughtering the last remnants of the Founders (Comstock may be on the run here in this alternate reality, or he may already be dead -- who knows?). Then, we see Daisy Fitzroy and her lieutenants murder Fink (along with some other Founder nobles) in a cold-blooded ritual in front of a throng of followers, basking in the people's joyous cheers (in this timeline, Fink would not killed in front of us like he is in the main game).
Supplemented with the appropriate kind of audio diaries, we would be able to see how Daisy's indignation, previously a righteous source of her populist rage, became corrupted by power and vengeance, and ultimately, resulted her in becoming a tyrant, repaying the Founders with cruelty. Hell, she could even orchestrate the death of "Revolutionary Booker", since he has fulfilled his purpose to her!
Anyway, in my fanfic DLC story, Fitzroy's burgeoning despotism would echo the main game's themes of how power can not only corrupt, but also whitewash the past for anyone -- even a woman of color. And of course, it would parallel Booker/Comstock's dark past at Wounded Knee and at The Boxer Rebellion. To me, that would be a more effective way to convey Levine's original point in the main game that the Vox and Daisy Fitzroy are ultimately "no different" than Comstock.
In addition to more multi-verse stuff for the DLC (which I presume will happen), I hope we have something more with the Vox. I found it to be a fascinating part of the game that needed more time in the oven.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I actually grew more of an appreciation for the earlier Finktown section on my second playthrough. I really liked how in Shantytown, everything is dark and dingy, except the big ol' gold Fink factory you can see standing in the middle of it all. The man has no shame. And I love all the rationalizations Fink keeps sending out for his shitty working conditions. "Idle hands are the devil's play things, it's my duty to work you 14 hours a day!"
I also liked that one elevator scene, if nothing else but for Elizabeth's animations
I also liked that one elevator scene, if nothing else but for Elizabeth's animations
I thought that 'phone was referencing Songbird, what with that diagram right beside it.
Seems to me like she's only talking about Infinite. That you leave regular space via Rapture (in the way you came in BioShock 1) suggests that it's representative of the 'doorway' between reality and Elizabeth's omniscienceness. You have to go into a Rapture lighthouse/universe to get to all the Columbias, too.
toastyToast
Member
As neat as it is to discuss the game, I feel that its inelegance is a failing. The discussions are not about character motivations or themes, they're about what happened. That's not something one should have to question given enough thought.
The One Who Knocks
Member
I agree. But you said the line when he wakes up (about the 'idiot priest') was from memories bleeding over. That's exactly when the cognitive dissonance occurs, when memories conflict. Him remembering drowning and him remembering surviving would conflict if they happened in the same universe. All of the other dying Bookers don't remember dying because it all happens in seperate timelines and as a result, they can never remember the previous Booker's experience.
She obviously isn't just talking about infinite with that line. If she were just talking about infinite, why make mention of Rapture at all?
----
I feel like I'm answering a lot of questions about this whole baptism scene at the beginning so I'd like to throw a question out to all of you. Why does Booker wake up in a different area after the baptism?
In my version of things, Booker doesn't realize he died after the baptism. He "wakes" up after what he thinks was just a baptism but in the new reality he was never baptised. The only dissonance is that he thought he was baptised but he wasnt and this isn't that huge of a deal, the nose bleeds only happen when it is large chunks that are different or if impossible things are happening.
I presumed at the time that this particular occurrence wasn't anything that serious. The people at the baptism picked him up and carried him into Columbia while he was passed out.
The One Who Knocks
Member
If you look up where you came from it leads to the baptism area. Why he wakes up is difficult but I think it might be the cognitive dissonance from having crossed over the first time. When Booker is pulled through the tear by the Lutece to the lighthouse the same thing happens. Maybe he isn't yet completely 'over' the universe shift as he remembers both the office and the 1983 tear before waking up.
So why did he have to 'wake' in the first place if he wasn't baptised? I can accept the possibility of what you're saying by the way, I'm just seeing how 'thought out' (probably the wrong phrase) it is to see if I can be convinced that it's a more likely explanation than him not drowning in the baptism and playing through a flashback is.
The theme of dimensions, time tears and all that are pretty complex. I didn't think the game had a crazy twist like others mentioned, but I am accustomed to a few stories dealing with this and was able to understand the mechanics of it all easily. For other people, even after having it explained it still confuses them, and I really don't think they could have done much to fix that without going on a kojima 20 minute rant with elizabeth donning a teacher outfit explaining shit on a chalkboard.
What you're saying makes sense, with the whole death thing. The only issue I have is the baptism scene at the beginning. If he died, why does he wake up coughing water? How did he get there? He walked into Columbia, passed out in some water? So lets say he didnt die, how did he get there? The more likely scenario is he passed out during the baptism and the priests carried you in, and dumped you where you wake up.
Neither explanation makes a lot of sense, and your version definitely gels with the rest of the games rules. But it doesnt make alot of sense =\
EDIT: rather, your version of this event makes LESS sense than the other. If that makes sense lol
Well when he first enters that time the twins obviously drag him to the boat. That is shown and obvious. I don't think I can get behind the fact that after a baptism, the group just picked him up and tossed him into Columbia. At a baptism, the priest talks to you afterwards. That is such a common occurance that I want to say there is a purpose to it that is lost on me because I was not baptised as an adult.
The "there is always a man and a lighthouse" stuff makes me wonder whether there'd be Plasmid and Big Daddy equivalents even without the influence of Fink viewing Rapture through the tears. It is obviously a meta commentary on the similarities of between Bioshock games, but the idea of one universal story form constantly repeating in an infinite number of variations is really interesting inside the universe too. It could be argued that Columbia's exploitation of the tears makes it the ultimate version of that story since it was able take and use elements from other versions across the multiverse.
This needs to happen.
You actually just made me rethink something. It seems to coincidental that the new Booker wakes up coughing water but it may not be a coincidence at all. Maybe Booker does have a cognitive reaction at the point where something is different and it causes a lapse in what is going on and he goes right into the water. I mean, Chen Lin was still using tools where there were none, who's to say that Booker wasn't trying to cause a baptism where there wasn't a priest?
So you cant get behind being carried into an adjacent area by people who watched the event unfold, even offhandedly commenting on the priest being too rough. But you can beleive that he snuck in passed the priest, and passed out in some water in the next room, with people commenting on something else?
In my version of things, there was no priest to sneak past the second time. The folks in Columbia aren't always in the exact same spot in each reality. Also, see my last post to iron out the coincidence.
You're trying to hard, the simple explanation - that he didn't die and simply passed out, explains everything. You are having to make up extra events to make things fit your theory.
Ok, this is the kind of leap I can get behind. I still think its reaching, but this argument has basis from rules introduced to us in game. This is a valid alternative!
Um, she doesn't. "I can see them through the doors. You, me, Columbia, Songbird."
The simple explanation was to say fuck it all and just fly the blimp to Paris. The game felt the need to reach so to understand it, I feel like we all need to as well.
That's just how it's done in Columbia. New people are baptized symbolically and they're carried in and left in the shallow water until they wake up and are greeted by the disciples there.
Him being in a dark apartment doesn't mean he's dead, it's a transition for him being temporarily unconscious.
Well, his point is strong due to the way Booker behaves when he dies. Think about it, it seems to me like the office stuff happens when he dies. This would be, I think, the only time in game where its debated he didnt die before going to the office?
Or am I completely understanding this game wrong?
Don't try and change the subject - lets stick to the baptism at the beginning of the game.
Even though every other time the apartment is shown is for death reasons?
Was this stated in vox recording? If not, where are people getting it?
Just because dying (without Elizabeth) results in a trip to the office does not imply that every trip to the office means that he died. He goes there several times in the game without dying.
A -> B does not mean B -> A.
Voice of Reason
Banned
JC, you son of a bitch! I was just replaying the game trying to find that scene... I wanted to screencap that gold statue. (Knowing those awesome Liz animations are in that scene is a sweet bonus.)
Which chapter in Chapter Select would lead me to that sequence? I jumped in during the Vox revolution... Guess it was earlier.
The One Who Knocks
Member
From the previous thread:
There you go. I think the first one is Bioshock Infinite's version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (I know nothing about music, I don't know if that's the right name) and the second one is what was requested (Songbird tune).
I wasn't changing the subject, I was saying the simple answer is almost never the correct one in this game.
Can you please give me another time he goes to the office without dying? And don't say the end of the game because that is the only time you have a time lord showing you the important moments of your life.
He goes there several times in the end game for non-death reasons.
xxjuicesxx
Member
You cant get into Columbia without being baptised. Thats why its viewed as so Utopic. They are all free of sin?
Again, another valid argument. Goddamn.
I love this game. At the part we entered Comstock House I thought this was my GOTY. At the ending I was sure of it. I get some people want this to be more than just a shooter, but I'm struggling to find an experience as fulfilling as this game was in a long time.
I'm a big MGS fan, so I have heard some crazy stories, they dont often make sense. But this one was crafted lovingly and with a lot of thought. Why couldnt we have this for Mass Effect or Dragon Age? Everything seems to tie together neatly. I usually hate time travel, too much confusion and lazy writing. This was done expertly. For once, I bought a game from hype, and was not at all disappointed.
I disagree with that, the simple answer is quite often the correct one, and when it isn't they always are careful to clarify the situation in a Vox or other type of exposition.
The end game doesn't count. At that point you are in Liz's hands and she can do whatever she wants. She breaks the rules at full power.
I will say end game, it is the exception that disproves the rule.
Define "every other time."
Another event was falling into Battleship Bay, as you said.
When you wake up, she says "Are you ok? You almost drowned."
So I don't understand why you'd instead think that he died and he traveled to a different universe, inhabited a different Booker, etc. instead of just taking her word for it. That you almost drowned.
So basically, he doesn't die every time he's in that office.
It isn't an exception because it has such a drastically different connotation to it. Elizabeth is purposely bringing you there to show you an event in your life.
Every other time literally means every other time except for when someone else brings you to the office. Why does songbird just leave you at battleship bay instead of killing you in your version of things?
I don't have time to read through all of the last several pages. But throughout the conversation regarding the baptism at the start and whether or not Booker died at that scene, has anyone talked about how he wakes up in his office?
And if he wakes up in his office that means he has died.
So he had to have died during that baptism at the start right? He wakes up where his dead body would have floated to. You can see where the tunnel opens up behind the priest.
Is this death treated just like any other death that would happen during gameplay? I would think so.
But I am curious what people think happens every time you die in game. Is this the same Booker just simply respawing? Or is this a new Booker in a near identical timeline?
And I am extremely curious about what is said on the voxophone that talks about baptism creating two seperate beings. The clean new one comes out of the water and asks if there is still a sin filled version of that being elsewhere.
Bioshock Infinite indeed.
And if he wakes up in his office that means he has died.
So he had to have died during that baptism at the start right? He wakes up where his dead body would have floated to. You can see where the tunnel opens up behind the priest.
Is this death treated just like any other death that would happen during gameplay? I would think so.
But I am curious what people think happens every time you die in game. Is this the same Booker just simply respawing? Or is this a new Booker in a near identical timeline?
And I am extremely curious about what is said on the voxophone that talks about baptism creating two seperate beings. The clean new one comes out of the water and asks if there is still a sin filled version of that being elsewhere.
Bioshock Infinite indeed.
The Xtortionist
Member
His eyes crack from being underwater.
:O Awesome, thanks!
Because it realizes the water is killing it - the game is pretty clear on that.
I am currently arguing what you just said (in favor of) and I believe it is a new Booker in a near identical timeline, so identical that memory bleeding over can occur.
The game is clear that he is weak to high pressure, not knee deep water.
You see his eye beginning to crack in that sequence, and then you see the songbird withdraw in fear.
HueyFreeman
Banned
Absolutely lovely thread, everyone.