Glorified G
Member
Who are the audience that would spend $400-$500 on a console with a limited library early in its lifespan? You will find quite a few of them on insular message boards.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Bonus Round - Is Time Running Out For Xbox?
- Thread starter iNvid02
- Start date
Who are the audience that would spend $400-$500 on a console with a limited library early in its lifespan? You will find quite a few of them on insular message boards.
Well, but isn't that the whole sum of console "wars" in the end? I buy for the games, and for those games that I don't get for my PC, the XB1 fits the bill. I like the use of the Kinect, personally, even if it mostly remains as a interface tool. For others, Sony-exclusive games, or the desire to have the average best-looking multiplatforms, or pure cost, are more important factors. That's how it's always been, and I don't see any reason that's "bad" either.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Well, I just don't know how visually apparent the differences are, but then, I'm also not one to notice or care. (So take that as you will, perhaps I'm merely projecting when I say "nobody cares.")
I actually think Xbox One would have a different advantage over PS4, but one that loses importance while the Xbox One is priced higher, and that is ecosystem continuity. Basically, stick to what's familiar and where you have your roots. In the United States, at least, Xbox 360 had a sizable lead. For those that were involved in Xbox Live with friends and to whatever degree they care about "gamer score" (essentially: nonsense), abandoning it would actually be a significant change. At price parity, I'm not sure they make that choice. At $100 less for the alternative, I think they do make that choice, and in droves, just as they left Sony during the PS2 to PS3 transition. But as more and more gamers make that choice now, it's going to solidify that choice for others later, as friends influence friends and public mindshare irrevocably tilts.
At any rate, they cannot hold on to Kinect with a death grip if it isn't garnering sales. A difference that isn't being bought isn't one to fear losing.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I like Infamous more than CoD type games, but come on. Infamous is a low 80s Metacritic series that hasn't hit 2m units sold before. Second Son is extremely similar to the previous two. Titanfall is from the makers of Call of Duty 4 and has a few interesting ideas for online FPSs. If anything, the difference between the two games in press coverage is going to pale in comparison to the difference in consumer attention.
captainraincoat
Banned
Turn your own fanboy blinkers off for a minute..some of you are like racehorses when you see sony and trouble in the one sentence
I did say video games on a whole were in a bad state
MS and Sony will probably still throw money at loss making ventures as its a core part of their overall strategy but when you dont have the warchest to reach into and grab that dough things start getting dire.......thats when you start to look at what other major company is sitting there with a crapload of cash and likes to have gadgets that supposedly innovate...i honestly think apple will be in the console arena in the next 5 years then everyone will be doomed to $5 angry birds
rokkerkory
Member
Checks the year whew I thought we were back in 2006 again.
Someone finally showed him how to use FaceTime on an iOS device.
It was always ridiculous when he would claim Grandma and Grandpa would love video chat on the Xbox, like it was some kind of revelation. Grandma and Grandpa have been video chatting on their phones for years now.
3rdamention
Member
If the Xbox One can make a $150 price cut, removing Kinect or not, don't you think that Sony will counter? It would only be a $50 price cut to match the $150 price cut of the Xbox One, making both systems $350.
By the time that Microsoft could cut the Xbox One by $150, even if they are going to drop the Kinect, Sony should be in a position to counter with a price drop since manufacturing, production, and hardware costs should be more affordable.
We all know Microsoft isn't going to make a price cut now, probably not even this Summer, but if they try something around the Fall/Winter, or around Holiday shopping time, Sony could easily counter with a bit of a price cut and weather that storm if they have to.
Memorabilia
Member
Couldnt have said it better myself. I'm still slack-jawed at how badly MS handled the design, launch, and PR of the Xbone. I've done more than my part by buying 2 Xbones at launch, but I still shake my head at all the mis-steps. Given the relative lack of value of XBL Gold vs PS+, its just one more thing that engenders face-palms. I do think they'll figure that one out eventually, if only out of necessity as Gold sub numbers slowly dwindle over the course of this new gen.
KeyboardThug
Member
I do like using skype for some of my friends on xbox live. Its nice to be able to sit and talk then jump in a game. Maybe im alone....
Yes, you're merely projecting. People care, in so much as they hear from their friends in the know(early adopters) that the graphics are better on one than the other. They don't need to know the exact specs, just that one has better graphics, and the damage is done.
That's the narrative right now. "Xbox One is more expensive with weaker graphics."
I'm not saying it's bad. I'm enjoying my X1 atm specifically for the exclusive games available on it, but as much as I like Killer Instinct, it's not going to move consoles. Outside of Halo (and that's questionable these days), I don't feel that MS has any franchises that can be reliably counted on to convince people to pick up the console. It was a lot easier last gen, as it was a strong choice for 3rd party software.
The only way you're going to sell a weaker machine at the same price, is if you can offer something the opposition can't do. Right now, that's basically Kinect and OS functions (which largely rely on Kinect).
I guess I agree with this (for the US at least). The only problem really is that they screwed the transition up by having the two consoles so disconnected from each other. Not having the ability to chat with 360 players, and 360 players not even being able to see what an Xbox One player is playing break the continuity imo. I have a load of friends still on 360, but whilst I'm on the Xbox One, they're dead to me.
Get a hold of yourself, friend. I said it FEELS like manufactured hyped. I think this game looks fun. It doesn't look to be revolutionary or innovative, so I don't understand why it's about the most hyped game I've seen in a long time. Everybody in the press seems infatuated with it. Why? Why do we never hear anybody that's just not that interested? Everybody in the press seems to be hyped for this game, and think it could turn XB1's fortunes around. It looks like a good - maybe even great - first person shooter. But that's it. It's not revolutionary. And I'm NOT saying a game has to be revolutionary to be hyped - I GET why people are excited for it - but I think a game that is hyped as much as this should be something...MORE than this. The scope of this game isn't insane. It's not doing anything that blows peoples' minds.
I'm not going to go into the review thread and complain if there's high scores. I expect high scores, and won't be surprised by them. Let go of your silly preconceived notions for a second and realize that to not be hyped doesn't mean you're hating on it, or scheming against it. This game looks great. If it was on PS4, I would probably buy it, as it seems fun. I'm not bitter that it's not there because I don't feel like I'm missing out on a massive game.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I think people don't see that MS can't cut there price just like that unless they willing to lose a ton of money .
It's the same with Kinect they can't drop just like that since manufacturing contacts are in place unless they will to store millions Kinect devices until they sell .
MS also can not cut cost as faster as Sony either because of there system parts .
EDIT MS has no chance for a come back unless they willing to lose a good amount of money like Sony did with PS3 and even then they don't have WW going for them .
Randolph Freelander
Member
But how does that change with "priced the same with weaker graphics." (I think it does.) Then the conversation turns. "How much weaker?" Then people decide for themselves and are influenced by other considerations. We've all had it beaten into our heads that there's more to a console race than power, and I personally think continuity is one of those things.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Right now I think the price of the PS4 is able to attract more of the casual crowd than the XBox One. Plus Sony is riding the wave of momentum right now. The more we hear about how hard it is to find a PS4 the more attractive it becomes. What will be interesting is how these systems do in a year from now during slow times of the year like now after the excitement of new consoles wears off.
Microsoft thus far has done a poor job telling us why a more expensive game system is better. Sony had bluray to sell the audience with the PS3, Microsoft has Kinect and Kinect isn't as rewarding to most people it seems. So until Kinect proves it's worth Microsoft is left with exclusives and perhaps smaller things like Twitch and it's online performance to try and trump the PS4. However PS+ is already showing better value to gamers so it looks like Microsoft will have to work harder. That to me is a great position for consumers because it means Microsoft will be hungry for your business. I still think it is far better to have serious competition. Without it means the PS4 is under no pressure to cut its price or release games on a timely schedule. Or give PS4 owners features that were promised as quickly as possible.
Continuity would have meant something if either system had backwards compatibility. Neither do. Now is the perfect time to switch ecosystems. And believe me, people are moving. Sony isn't pulling these numbers just from former PS3 users.
As for price, if MS can somehow undercut Sony, you have a point. At the same price, not so much.
Imperfected
Member
It's a valid question. They may have been shouted down incessantly by Nintendo's core fans, but people were starting to see warning signs for the Wii-U this early, and no matter how many times people insisted otherwise, they weren't wrong.
That said, it's not an exact one-to-one read on the scenario. There are dangerous similarities - Microsoft was also clearly counting on the "casuals" to turn out for their box, and similarly came up short - but there are also key differences, most notable being that there isn't a mass exodus of third party support from the XB1, and that it seems Microsoft is more aware of their problems and active in trying to pull things together.
The reason people draw the parallel is that Nintendo's mantra throughout their failure was, "Everything is fine, we're just waiting for [game] to release." There's a superficial similarity there with the way Microsoft is deifying Titanfall, but I think it's important to notice the difference: they aren't kicking back and just trusting Titanfall will make everything better, they're making moves elsewhere and generally show a better recognition of their situation compared to Nintendo's affable incompetence. (And probably have Nintendo to thank for that, actually; if nothing else, the Wii-U served as ample warning for how easily you could lose a following.)
See? You just made my point when you brought up the same song & dance with this "Sony's in financial trouble" argument.
Dude, open your eyes & wake up. Everywhere I turn to, this shit gets repeated over & over & it's annoying as hell. And it's by mostly Xbox fanboys.
"PS4's doing well, so let's bring up the argument that "they're going under" even though we don't know how bankruptcy works for companies!", etc.
Randolph Freelander
Member
No, I agree that people are moving. I expect that as long as PS4 has the price advantage, Sony is going to clean Microsoft's clock. This race will be a landslide the world over, double or triple the sales even in Microsoft's strongest markets. I think at price parity, however, Microsoft has a chance to close the gap. I don't know that they'd win in any territory, as I think damage has already been done. But to those that are on Xbox Live, care about their gamer score, are invested in franchises such as Halo and Gears of War, etc., they'll certainly be more likely to stick around with what they know and look past a power difference, just as the game advantages of weaker systems in the past has won the day. (And note, I'm clearly not suggesting Xbox One would have a game advantage overall, but on a personal commitment level for existing owners, it certainly could.)
But the clock is ticking, Just as Sony wasn't able to catch up to Microsoft in total or monthly sales in the U.S. even when PS3 made it to parity (more or less) with 360, Microsoft's ability to catch up to Sony is being impaired as more and more people make up their minds this generation. They have to correct the course early or risk not being able to correct it at all.
Truespeed
Member
Sure, Stephen Elop, who was just appointed as head of Microsofts Devices and Studios division. He's the person that destroyed Nokia's device division and then allegedly made comments about jettisoning the Xbox division if he was elected as CEO.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Actually I see no reason for Sony to follow suit. The PS4 is already a "slim" SKU. I don't see any major SKU changes till there's a node shrink to 20nm which won't be there in volume till late 2015. Sony is also making profits on PS4 today. The company is in a much better place financially than it was in 2011 but they're not completely out of the woods yet and a largely symbolic $50 price drop would be just pissing free money away.
If Xbox One is sitting at 25 - 30% global marketshare (vs the PS4) by October (this is looking within the realm of possibility) its a move they absolutely have to make. Sony seems to be having no problems selling the PS4 and once they get the first party pipeline cranked up (2015 is the year to watch) the system won't need to be the cheaper box to sell itself. The PS3 proved that pretty comprehensively. Another point they made in the video makes a lot of sense. This generation more than any other is all about winning early. Once you get the community people will move to your platform because all their friends are on it. There's a multiplier effect to marketshare that didn't exist in the past. Sony has no reason to get involved in a price war.
Memorabilia
Member
To drive home your point (bolded above): I have a couple Xbones, one of which is in my main entertainment center with Kinect hooked up...and one of which is in my spare bedroom that I have not even bothered hooking Kinect up on yet. Frankly, while I do somewhat enjoy the voice command functionality in the main room, it does have the feel of an over-hyped/priced gimmick. This is brought into clear focus when I use the One in my back bedroom and basically dont miss the absence of Kinect at all. I've begun to consider the idea of selling one or both Kinects on eBay. I think the only thing holding me back is the slight possibility that a game which actually uses it may eventually come out. But, even still I'm not holding my breathe. I think this last bit is sort of the elephant in the room...how does a company hype the hell out of a product and make it central to the "experience" they want to push but then not have a single game use the technology during the launch window? It just boggles the mind.
Isn't pulling the Kinect out likely to be something that's actually more difficult in the short-term though, seeing as they'd already have a crapload made, and it would actually require a new SKU?
If the online 360 community are moving to PS4 then I think time is running out. Maybe Titanfall can reverse that, and having Destiny, Gears, and Halo all in one place, but MS still has to figure out how to grow past the shooter and racing crowd, which won't happen if they keep that price so high.
I don't know what would get people who hate Kinect to see value in it and justify the $100 price difference. Even if they bundled Kinect Sports Rivals and Titfanfall I think there would still be a lot of people turned off by the device until there are many more applications and it's easier to use (it's highly finicky and not reliable enough today).
Erm, go do some reading. Nokia had a mountain of problems with Symbian before Elop joined. They were losing marketshare to Apple and Android, they had a splintered development platform, no unified app market, and no way to fix it without HUGE costs. Can't remember which one, but in one year Android or iOS got 100,000 apps. It took 7 years for Symbian to get 10,000 apps.
I don't know what would get people who hate Kinect to see value in it and justify the $100 price difference. Even if they bundled Kinect Sports Rivals and Titfanfall I think there would still be a lot of people turned off by the device until there are many more applications and it's easier to use (it's highly finicky and not reliable enough today).
Erm, go do some reading. Nokia had a mountain of problems with Symbian before Elop joined. They were losing marketshare to Apple and Android, they had a splintered development platform, no unified app market, and no way to fix it without HUGE costs. Can't remember which one, but in one year Android or iOS got 100,000 apps. It took 7 years for Symbian to get 10,000 apps.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first time that the more powerful hardware has been cheaper out of the gate? I think that's what almost handed the 360 an easy win over the PS3 last gen. Had Sony's PS3 launched at the same price point as the 360, they would have probably slaughtered ww sales.
You're overvaluing Xbox Live, especially now that Sony has the features in place people expect from Xbox Live. One guy in a peer group flips to PS4, then the next, then the whole group. It only matters that everyone is on the same network going forward.
Halo and Gears is a stronger argument, which is why Sony is making sure Destiny is associated with PS4 first and foremost.
No, the PS3 was powerful, but Sony had the higher price tag with it.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I don't know how many Kinects they have made, I'd imagine it's not too far ahead of their overall manufacturing numbers. They're probably stuck with what's already been shipped, and if they need to, they can repackage what's already in boxes but still in their inventory.
I just think the sooner they drop Kinect as a forced bundle, the sooner they reach price parity, the better it will be for them. I think their chances to win are gone, but now it's merely a play to limit the damage. Otherwise, I think they're set for a severe decline of the Xbox brand.
The flipping in just that manner is what I expect, it's just that I think it's less likely (or rather, happens less frequently) at price parity. It's far more likely as it stands right now. The longer the generation goes on with this present status quo, the more certain that the flipping will continue unabated, as the inertia will simply kill Microsoft, and not even a price advantage would help. And to once again be clear, I'm not saying they can win. I think it's already over. From here on, it's about preserving what they can.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
That's what I meant. Bad wording I guess. The PS4 marks the first time in VG history that the most powerful hardware isn't the most expensive relative to its direct competition.
Freeman
Banned
I'll be so glad once we are past Titanfall. I can't remember the last time it wasn't brought up by Keighley on a Bonus Round (sometimes out of nowhere). Its beyond me how can they make the mistake of suggesting its a XBone exclusive every time.
I get this feeling the press is threatened with the current state of things in the industry and they feel like it's their job to level the filed and make sure the state of things are preserved. I've never seen so much hype being generated in the press about a new IP, specially one from a mid sized studio, multiplayer only game like Titanfall.
Xbox has no momentum and aside from the Titanfall bump, things look grim. If at the end of the year if it hasn't passed the WiiU, will people start proclaiming the system dead? Or will the WiiU suddenly rise from the dead?
I get this feeling the press is threatened with the current state of things in the industry and they feel like it's their job to level the filed and make sure the state of things are preserved. I've never seen so much hype being generated in the press about a new IP, specially one from a mid sized studio, multiplayer only game like Titanfall.
Xbox has no momentum and aside from the Titanfall bump, things look grim. If at the end of the year if it hasn't passed the WiiU, will people start proclaiming the system dead? Or will the WiiU suddenly rise from the dead?
SwiftDeath
Member
Eh pretty sure PS1 vs Saturn was like that. Maybe PS2 versus Gamecube when GC came out
BruiserBear
Banned
Why is everyone hyped? For all the reasons I just gave you. Great art style, gameplay that is revolutionary in some ways. We've never seen this kind of movement in a FPS, along with the Titans being more fun to play than previous mech games. It's clearly an inspired concept, and it seems to be executed very well, by a team with a pedigree for making shooters that are hugely popular.
Ask yourself how often you have a totally new IP arriving from a team that created one of the biggest franchises in gaming in the past decade. It's a pretty rare event. The kind of event that draws a lot of attention.
Memorabilia
Member
I think the ship sailed on that one. It's really just a matter of how severe at this point.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I see, so it's ok for you to keep bringing up all these investors about closing Xbox but as soon as anyone mentions Sony's financial state they are fanboys. Nice way to control the argument to suit you.
boredandlazy
Member
We had one last year, The Last of Us.
But that had an 80 million install base to sell to.
Ok, I'm with you. We're on the same page for the most part.
Give me a break with that "controlling the argument" bullcrap. They're the ones that keeps going on & on about it & acting like Microsoft & the Xbox brand is invincible just because they have a lot of money (& not just in this messageboard, but other gaming messageboards as well).
C'mon with that, don't make them sound like they're innocent. You were in on it, too, & you have the nerve to say what you just said to me?
FuriousDark
Banned
Yes...no...maybe?
I agree it's going to be a tough road for Microsoft. Also said so earlier in the thread. But out of the game this early? Just........no.
I agree also about Titanfall not pushing XB1 to the heights Microsoft seem to be banking on. For a system selling phenomenon to happen, Titanfall needs to sustain popularity for a length of time. Be released on the correct platforms. (I am not saying XB1 is the wrong platform) but it would help XB1 more if it was XB1 console exclusive. The same would go for say, The Order 1886 on Sony's platforms. If The Order 1886 was being released to PS3/4/PC, I'td be a hard road. That's for any title imo.
I wonder.........is two weeks before 360 launch, long enough to continue criterion for Titanfall to be system selling on only XB1? The result of which gets them seeing numbers they'd like to see for the system. Two weeks later, the 360 version hits and many consumers that had no idea, say, "Holyshit Titanfall is on 360!" Cue in social media and two weeks after Titanfall releases on 360, everyone knows. Then, every person that didn't know has to make a choice. XB1 or 360. Something no one would have to think about if it was console exclusive to XB1. In an XB1console exclusive case, only thing driving consumers crazy, is where do I get the money for the system and game?!!!!!!
Part of Microsofts strategy is not "fully" marketing Titanfall on 360 as of yet. I'm not saying Titanfall won't become, phenomenon on XB1. I'm saying it has major hurdles to overcome walking on the path. It is quite possible the game itself could be a phenomenon on 3 of their platforms, without "game changing" increase of XB1 sales. Truthfully though anything can happen and Titanfall could shift tons of MS XB1.
The people mentioning MS's finances know business, and the people shooting it down either don't or have a vested interest.
The people mentioning Sony's finances either don't know business or have a vested interest, and the people shooting it down do.
It's a false equivalency pushed under the notion that you can just jump out from the closet and go "Booga-booga-boo! Investors!". The rest of us realize that, even at their most reasonable, the wolves are howling for MS to spin off Xbox because it's not making any money but for Playstation to spin off the rest of Sony because it's not making any money.
ZehDon
Member
I don't think the Xbone is going to fall that far behind, frankly. The Xbone isn't a complete and utter failure. Unlike the Wii U, its powerful enough to handle downgraded versions of current-gen games, so buying the Xbone doesn't prevent an owner from enjoying those games entirely. This alone will keep the Xbone afloat.
However, everyone else will have a PS4. That's potentially PS2-style domination. Microsoft need to ditch Kinect, bring the price down as low as they can stomach, and start pushing the Xbone as the most cost effective current-gen gaming solution. The cheaper alternative to Sony's premium console. Anything less than that, and this generation is already over. Microsoft cannot go toe to toe with the PS4. They built a weaker machine around a TV-centric vision that has been openly rejected by the market. Time is running out.
Alright, nah. As much as I like Titanfall, my initial interest was precisely due to the similarities its movement had to other FPS' I used to play such as Quake and UT2k4. Titanfall's movement is only unique today due to console focused FPS design having essentially removed advanced movement options.
I'm glad it's back though.
I wouldn't really count Uncharted as one of the biggest franchises of the last decade to be honest.
boredandlazy
Member
Why not? As of April 2012(According to Wikipedia) the franchise had sold over 17 million copies. Other than Gran Turismo I don't think there's been a bigger selling Sony franchise.
Truespeed
Member
Um, go do some research. It was Elop's decision to go Windows Phone exclusively which was kind of ludicrous for an OEM to put all their eggs into one platform. Nokia had the chance to use Android, but decided against it when Microsoft started bankrolling them and making promises. The decline of Nokia, under Stephen Elop, is considered to be the most epic failure of a CEO ever. It's almost ironic that the "Burning Platform" he wrote about was not Symbian, but rather the platform he bet the company on.
gundamkyoukai
Member
The question is what would you consider big 10 million plus each game ?
Truth is the biggest new gaming franchises have all been mutiplatform games other than Nintendo stuff .
Even without Kinect, it's unlikely that MS will ever be able to match the PS4 price without taking heavy losses. The APU die is larger, the APU design is more specialized, GDDR5 production capacity is increasing while DDR3 production capacity is lowering, the HDD is user-serviceable allowing for an eventual flash-only model, Sony has generally better electronics guys, pushes a greater volume of generic components in the supply chain (all those HDMI ports and ethernet connectors that are all over every TV, hi-fi, and Blu-ray player they ship), and as PS4 continues to sell better its own specific components will also be purchased in greater volume and thus at lower costs, at the same time as investment in production process improvements will lead to greater payoffs. A larger installed base will also replicate this gen's Xbox Live phenomenon with PSN, where users will both buy multiplats on PS4 and maintain a PS+ subscription (worth the equivalent of four or five software sales a YEAR, 20+ over the lifetime of the system.)
The second half of that list, relatedly, is why MS came so hard at the marketing angle and why they're already "in trouble" - the serious money is in services and both Gold and PS+ are designed specifically to lock you and all your friends into an ecosystem based on the buying choices of the early adopter in the group in the first year or so of the generation.
It definitely was. 17 million sales for the franchise.