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[Ricky Ricardo]

Sony <3 developers so much, they've graciously given them not one, but two targets to hit, at the same time! Lazy developers should step up and respond to such graciousness.

 

[Phamit]

Bioware has done so.

No, they didn't

 

[pastrami]

Sounds pretty obvious. Like if Sega jumped back into the console race, do you guys think developers will be like "Fuck yes, another platform!" or "Goddamnit, another platform to program for, optimize, and send through certification."

 

[RedAssedApe]

Actual, real, human developers posting their thoughts here... being completely ignored.

these threads move so fast. by the time you finish you post you're already on the last page lol any choice quotes?

 

[Ray Down]

Actual, real, human developers posting their thoughts here... being completely ignored.

Any chance you can link some of these posts?

The only ones I remember were ones made by Matt and Gopher I think.

 

[Chase17]

And we know how bad is Hyrule Warriors on OG 3DS. It's like the game was designed for the New 3DS but runs worse on the original!

Exactly. This will be a case by case thing I think. For example, Monster Hunter games run well on both but are clearly enhanced by New 3DS (although this is partly due to the extra nub, and control wise nothing will likely change with PS4 Neo).

Of course there is really no difference in the majority of N3DS games, and it seems like sony is mandating a NEO mode. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[dragonflys545]

It's early yet, and maybe things will be different come October, but if Sony is the only one making actual gaming experiences for VR, I don't see such a heavy bet paying off for them. Even with the occulus and the Vive being on store shelves (or as close as possible to them with these delays) we still don't have any real gaming related software for any VR system that's worth talking about beyond, "yes, that's a game that would probably be better played outside of VR".

We're still in such an experimental stage and Sony is better HARD that everyone and their parents is going to want a headset, and their own VR contributions are games that are probably just as good without VR.

Plus I don't think people are considering the hidden costs for PSVR yet. 95% of people are going to have to buy that 600 dollar bundle because they didn't want to buy into move controllers or cameras when the PS3 and PS4 were new.

Yatta yatta yatta, RISK. But that's risk sony's taking.

The only real risk on the NEO end of things seems to be on the developer's end.

If VR is a risk, then you might as well put the NX in there as well. No one outside of its fan base is really all that hype about it.

 

[ScaryShark]

I don't doubt that someone credible gave Colin that info but it's sort of nonsensical and pointless.

What is the 'majority' of? 5? 10? 50? Was this a formal poll of some sort? Who at these studios did they talk to? What kind of devs: small, AAA?

Also, do any of those devs actually have the dev kit in hand? If not, knowing anonymous dev first blush reaction to news and rumors couldn't be less useful.

 

[qa_engineer]

Wait so what does that mean and which developers are these?

Hopefully none of them are developers that make versions of their games for PC because then this just sounds ridiculous.

Colin Moriarty's source probably talked to a handful of devs and deemed that is enough of a sample size to say that "most" hate it. I would assume that most could care less that there is one additional platform.

Edit: Who is Colin Moriarty?

 

[platina]

Expected.

The PS4K seems like a system made for nobody. Bad for consumers, bad for developers.

Pc multiplats how do they work?

 

[Rollo Tomasi]

Bioware has done so.

If I recall correctly, that person hadn't worked at Bioware since 2012?

 

[get2sammyb]

Additional context is needed, though, right? Are the sources people actively working with devkits, or just reading the rumours like the rest of us? Are they actively up-in-arms outraged, or are they peeved that they have to do more work but will ultimately just get on with it?

I mean, the Tweet makes it sound like the worst thing in the world, but we're still in the knee-jerk overreaction phase, no?

I don't doubt that someone credible gave Colin that info but it's sort of nonsensical and pointless.

What is the 'majority' of? 5? 10? 50? Was this a formal poll of some sort? Who at these studios did they talk to? What kind of devs: small, AAA?

Also, do any of those devs actually have the dev kit in hand? If not, knowing anonymous dev first blush reaction to news and rumors couldn't be less useful.

Quoting because you said what I wanted to say more eloquently.

 

[labaronx]

Actual, real, human developers posting their thoughts here... being completely ignored.

Lol

 

[OrbitalBeard]

That subtle condescension though.




And okay,if it isn't marketed as a generational upgrade but it's priced like one.... ????

Yes, it's ok. Because it's a premium alternative to the base PS4 unit, which will likely still sell far more than this new revision.

And namedropping FIFA, CoD, and Madden wasn't "subtle condescension"...it's reality. It's what most PS4 owners play. Those are mainstream titles that a good number of users bought their system for.

 

[dubq]

Maybe some devs here can chime in...

How is this any different than Ultra/High/Medium settings for PC games? Most 3rd party games come out on multiple systems with variable settings already anyway.

This is what I'm wondering. Isn't NEO-mode just a fancy name for Ultra Settings?

 

[DrROBschiz]

I don't doubt that someone credible gave Colin that info but it's sort of nonsensical and pointless.

What is the 'majority' of? 5? 10? 50? Was this a formal poll of some sort? Who at these studios did they talk to? What kind of devs: small, AAA?

Also, do any of those devs actually have the dev kit in hand? If not, knowing anonymous dev first blush reaction to news and rumors couldn't be less useful.

Yup

His comment amounts to nothing without specific details

 

[DOWN]

*Devs complain about the consoles being underpowered*

*Devs complain about updated, more powerful consoles releasing*

They are being chained to the old console and forced to use the new one with the same games. They are not getting freed from the underpowered console at all

 

[Psychoward]

Sony <3 developers so much, they've graciously given them not one, but two targets to hit, at the same time! Lazy developers should step up and respond to such graciousness.

The best part is, it's the same install base so no extra profits! Good thing according to this thread we exist in a vacuum where pissing off developers and making it hard to develop doesn't matter! Man I sure loved those stellar ps3 ports!

 

[Nokagi]

Well of course. I can't really see much of an upside for them.

Expected.

The PS4K seems like a system made for nobody. Bad for consumers, bad for developers.

Agree.

 

[Skux]

Devs should not be obligated to create a separate running mode just for it. It's a waste of resources when less than half of PS4 owners will be able to take advantage of it.

 

[Oregano]

They might not be happy but they'll deal with it anyway.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Why are people asking for like #accurate and #sourced poll numbers over claims like this but just celebrating over any masturbatory "PS4K WILL SLAY!" posts?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Actual, real, human developers posting their thoughts here... being completely ignored.

I was just going to say that. People went as far as, "don't bring the phone comparison in here" to a developer, lol.

 

[Mesoian]

Because the PS4 isn't powerful enough to run VR like a PC can... oh wait, better not use that argument just now xD

I mean, that's a different conversation but...after trying subnautica in VR, I have SERIOUS doubts about PSVR in general.

But to be fair, it's the only headset I haven't gotten to play with.

 

[Robot Pants]

Expected.

The PS4K seems like a system made for nobody. Bad for consumers, bad for developers.

Speak for yourself

 

[ScaryShark]

Sony <3 developers so much, they've graciously given them not one, but two targets to hit, at the same time! Lazy developers should step up and respond to such graciousness.

...don't develop for the system then if it will be that much of a burden. They can put their foot down and make the system fail collectively.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Yup

His comment amounts to nothing without specific details

he's gotta stick to his #colinwasright gimmick

 

[MK_768]

That subtle condescension though.

Everybody who has defended the PS4K has done so in a condescending manner. It's really sad.

 

[papo]

Colin Moriarty's source probably talked to a handful of devs and deemed that is enough of a sample size to say that "most" hate it. I would assume that most could care less that there is one additional platform.

Well they should IMO, because if they are developers that already do a higher spec version for PC and put resources into then this would just in between that and whatever the main version is. I do not expect someone like CDPR saying something like this since they usually develop for PC first.

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

Honestly, not surprised. I'm constantly interested in seeing how things play out in the industry after this thing comes out.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

If Colin thinks he needs to tweet this, he should clarify what most is in this case.

 

[Juanfp]

I can't already see thenpost and threads attacking the devs, calling them lazy, saying they will boycott them because they don't support a PS4.5 version taking full advantage of the machine.

Why are people asking for like #accurate and #sourced poll numbers over claims like this but just celebrating over any masturbatory "PS4K WILL SLAY!" posts?

I think we know the answer.

 

[Interfectum]

Why are people asking for like #accurate and #sourced poll numbers over claims like this but just celebrating over any masturbatory "PS4K WILL SLAY!" posts?

Who are you talking about? I see all kinds of posts both for and against.

 

[ebullientprism]

Of course they are. I dont blame them either. Its extra work and extra testing for basically fuck all in gains.

Genuinely a stupid idea IMO.

So do people who develop PC games think this is that big a deal?

Not even close to being the same thing. PC games dont go through the certification process console games do.

 

[MogCakes]

Actual, real, human developers posting their thoughts here... being completely ignored.

I think I've seen Chubigans and....that's it. Dev opinions vary about as much as GAF's. And there are a lot of undercover devs posting here.

 

[Lion Heart]

PC developers must be in constant hell. So many variations, oh the horror.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

The best part is, it's the same install base so no extra profits! Good thing according to this thread we exist in a vacuum where pissing off developers and making it hard to develop doesn't matter! Man I sure loved those stellar ps3 ports!

Ok, you're now comparing this to the Cell architecture. It's clear you're just annoyed right now and don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

[viHuGi]

Devs complaining? What about people who complain about bad ports on Consoles and Pc? Did devs care about us? No.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

It is a Sony issue since pissing off devs lead to less exclusives, worse ports and other general fuckery. It's kinda important to have developers happy with your system so they, ya know, develop.

Third party exclusives are nigh non existent si I don't know where you're coming from with that.

 

[Kayant]

these threads move so fast. by the time you finish you post you're already on the last page lol any choice quotes?

Any chance you can link some of these posts?

The only ones I remember were ones made by Matt and Gopher I think.

Here -

Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

Cross-posting myself:

You guys do know that console games in development actually can have graphics settings (in a menu taken from the PC version or in a debug menu) that you can change, right?

Developer effort will come more in the sense that they have to keep the different performance budgets in mind. Meaning, if you need to keep, let's say, your polygon budget under 30M for the PS4/Xbone version you make a graphics setting around that, then PS4k would have an undefined number. You would then add props, details, change LoD to use that extra PS4k power.

It's no different from doing different graphics settings for PC.

They'll probably make a baseline in the future, like PS4 = Low/Medium = 7850/760, PS4k = high/very high = (future) Polaris 10/480, and that's the way they'll manage the difference in power.

It's not very different from what happens now with multiplatform games. Extra platforms always mean extra hours in compliance, QA and builds though. But games won't be (or shouldn't be) any worse for it.

Source: the brain of an actual person working at an actual big studio

PS: I'm guessing a lot of the time they'll just throw some HBAO, higher quality filtering, they'll move the framerate lock to 60/increase res and maybe add some AA.

We are still talking about game development here; both things still will unevitably create problems (PC/PS4 do not share shaderpaths, you might need more compiling/baking that could potentially go wrong, you have to branch your already branched multiplaform code), and then you also absolutely have to test it, which is certainly not cheap. Rumors about the increased TRCs seem to be going around too; which is always more work and restrictions to consider.

We really are not talking about simple change, it can potentially have massive implications. But, that said, it can also be just a small annoyance if the TRC and extra compliance isn't too restrictive and you already support shipping different configs on the consoles (which is not the same as being able to change settings in development).

.

 

[Quasar]

They must loath all non console platforms then.

 

[Harp]

What is up with this 4th party statement. You now need a "source" on how other people feel? Doesn't he know his own developers he can ask. Or is this just a internet statement. Where two people bitch and it is made out like thousands of developers are angry.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Who are you talking about? I see all kinds of posts both for and against.

Any time someone in here comes out against this upgrade they're essentially told to stop being poor, or that their PS4 isn't going to magically become a brick, as if there isn't a ton of evidence suggesting that games developed with multiple target specs in kind often suffer on the weaker hardware. And a few devs have chimed in and given their thoughts on it and are also talked over.

 

[Risk Breaker]

Thanks for the insight. Did not know it required that much work on PC. I'm sure its easier once the presets are in. People are making a big deal out of this. PC devs and iOS devs should feel right at home.

Well, making games IS a lot of work in general Yeah, once you have documented, for example, that SSAO takes 3ms on PS4 and 3.5ms on XB1 and 2ms on a 970, you can have your level designers and artists take that kind of stuff into account, and a technical artist will make the different graphical settings so that all platforms are in the desired performance ballpark.

I guess you could say it's similar to iOS as well, yes.

 

[Mesoian]

If VR is a risk, then you might as well put the NX in there as well. No one outside of its fan base is really all that hype about it.

DUDE ABSOLUTELY! All this shit is worrisome and exciting, but whatever, at the end of the day, the devs will deal because there's money to be made. Even if they wanted to say "fuck this, let's go develop elsewhere", they could (they won't, but they could).

Nintendo though...no one is more on the edge of a cliff with cobbled together wings made of vulture features and wax than Nintendo. You wanna talk about risk? Nintendo is the embodiment of risk.

 

[DrROBschiz]

If Colin thinks he needs to tweet this, he should clarify what most is in this case.

It was my understanding that the PS4k is developer and industry driven

Maybe Sony is catering to certain influential developers... maybe hey are just trying to keep up with the VR and 4k movements

People seem to be treating this whole thing as them dragging consumers kicking and screaming into the future against their will

 

[Sylas]

I can't really discuss much, but people aren't really running around going crazy thinking of it.

I think cost for indies will be roughly the same. PS4 is definitely more accessible for indies than PS3 was despite being a lot more powerful. Obviously if you want to make it look fancier on a PS4k you have to put some work in it, but the amount of work depends on what you want to do and they can always simply allow 4k/60FPS + AA, turn on some effects and call it a day.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight--totally understand that you can't really talk about it yet. So long as it doesn't add considerable lead-time or mounting TRC costs, hey. I'm all for it. We'll see if Sony can actively show that having a Neo build will add considerable gains for whatever cost it'll have.

Do we even have confirmation (or a leak, w/e) that Neo mode HAS to include upgraded visuals/better framerate? It could be a toggle that doesn't really do anything if they're mandating support for it. It'd be shitty, but it's a route I can see some people taking.

 

[El_Chino]

I think I've seen Chubigans and....that's it. Dev opinions vary about as much as GAF's. And there are a lot of undercover devs posting here.

Matt and GopherD seem to be on board with it as well.

 

[Mister Megative]

Because they want to aid their VR goals long before the PS5 comes out. That and obviously they're thinking why not try this and see how it works? Risky sure, but I'm certain "internet outrage" isn't going to step in the way of what will be a rather harmless trial if it fails (PS4 original isn't going anywhere and will only be cheaper now). They can prop it up as a 4K media machine, and VR experience improvement, and see how it goes.

"Everyone" now abandoning consoles, selling their PS4 and taking themselves out of the equation to play the likes of TLG, Uncharted 4, Persona 5, GT7, Horizon and so forth will amount to... 2 angry internet gamers.

Yeah. Everyone is just gonna abandon consoles now. Right.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Oh this is going to be a great two months or so.