Eh, I trust the instant polls as much as I trust that Trump won every GOP debate (he didn't). Clearly more Sanders supporters are going to be involved in any non scientific poll.
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Democratic Primary Debate VI: Raid Time 2/11 9PM EST
- Thread starter dramatis
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Eh, I trust the instant polls as much as I trust that Trump won every GOP debate (he didn't). Clearly more Sanders supporters are going to be involved in any non scientific poll.
M0nochromatic
Member
It's easy for it to get personal, but at the end of the day we're all just people typing at others on the Internet. Even with their differences, Sanders and Clinton are still the two best/lesser evil candidates. No one should disrespect anyone.
I've studied politics since Obama took office in 2009 and I'm currently majoring in political science. Calm yourself.
Misc thoughts:
Clinton asks Sanders how Scott Walker and republican legislatures may effect his plans for funding universal free tuition. Sanders comeback is essentially "free tuition is important, I really like it."
Millionaires and Billionaires everywhere. Can't turn around without bumping into one
Bernie was really soft on when the two were trading financial regulation plans. I think he genuinely doesn't realize that Clinton's plan is a lot stronger than his?
Sanders has heard of Winston Churchill, so we can be confident that he has at least a middle school education on world history.
Basically activated the trap card on supporting Obama. Went from "Can't a senator disagree with a president" to "Dude you wanted him to get primaried." He had to have been able to see that coming, but was left with the sort of dumbfounded "Well, you challenged him to be president in 2008"
"Dude you wanted him to get primaried."
LOL, I would have loved to hear Hillary actually say it that way. And yeah, that's my general assessment of the debate. Hillary's big weak point was the campaign finance, which is hard to defend against someone going full in on breaking up banks and refusing all super PACs. The best she had there was just to say that Obama did it too :/ She should try and work on that, cause it keeps coming back up.
Psychoward
Banned
That's fair, I just don't think his performance was iffy. It was his strongest foreign policy debate by a longshot and he directly called out the use of SuperPACs and Hillary using Obama as a shield. At worst it's the same as his other debates
It's usually like this the entire debate thread so the fact that it's only post debate is some kind of progress believe it or not.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
But couldn't the argument then be made that be avoiding intervention, he aided in the killing/suffering of countless others?
It obviously depends on the exact situation(s) you're referring to though.
The same exact thing would happen if rebels went against the government in the US. At the end of the day, Assad still had majority support of his people, so yes, at the very least you condemn and push for restraint, not empower and enable even more dangerous factions and Islamic extremists, who unsurprisingly (as if history hasn't taught the US anything) ended up being the worse evil.
Leftist ideals. She's slightly left of her centrist husband and very much in line with the compromises Obama was forced into because he realized he only had so much political capital.
Every election gives the candidate fresh capital to use. I'd rather a person who will use it for drastic pushes than modest improvements. Doesn't make her a monster I just don't agree with her stance.
excelsiorlef
Member
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Huh? I thought Hillary fans were supposed to be above this.
I just don't really get how a Liberal American can support Obama or Hillary when Bernie is saying things that make more sense to us Liberal foreigners.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
And for you to do that, vote for Bernie and push that political revolution he's talking about.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
And for you to do that, vote for Bernie and push that political revolution he's talking about.Cow Mengde
Banned
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/tpp-elizabeth-warren-labor-118068
But yes, let's pretend Obama is not a self serving corporate shill. It's easily the most dirty underhanded thing he's doing.
Bronx is not wrong in the slightest.
I think you're indirectly highlighting a problem Bernie's going to face going forward. If Hillary continues to highlight the issues Bernie has had with Obama's presidency and place him between the two of them, the harder it's going to be for Bernie to respond without being seen as attacking a very popular democratic president. More important (and brilliant, I think), is it's going to be even harder for some of Bernie's vocal supporters to refrain from going after Obama to defend him. Bernie will have some major problems if that begins to happen.
It's not thought to be true. It is true. Anyone can look it up.
People aren't that dumb.
Everyone knows Obama took huge donations from Wall Street. Hasn't harmed him.
I don't understand how anyone can say they despise Hillary Clinton. These are both candidates that I will happily vote for in the general election. People are allowed to make mistakes and missteps in the past. Hillary has done it. Bernie has done it. You cannot argue with the fact that Hillary used her bully pulpit to speak out for the voiceless while Secretary of State. As Secretary, she was largely doing what Obama asked of her. She advised him, but she is in his cabinet, not the other way around. Bernie has had plenty of shitty votes.
You simply cannot argue that Hillary has done more harm than good, and trying to say that she is corrupt or in the pocket of Wall Street/special interests is pure speculation and disingenuous/outright lie.
People need to grow the fuck up and understand that people do things in politics. People compromise. Bills in congress are incredibly complex and sometimes, you vote for something that at its surface might be named something or complete something that you stand against, but there is compromise in there that is probably accomplishing some core goal for your constituency or the country, as a whole.
Politics is not black and white. Both Hillary and Bernie have and will continue to be champions for the people.
You simply cannot argue that Hillary has done more harm than good, and trying to say that she is corrupt or in the pocket of Wall Street/special interests is pure speculation and disingenuous/outright lie.
People need to grow the fuck up and understand that people do things in politics. People compromise. Bills in congress are incredibly complex and sometimes, you vote for something that at its surface might be named something or complete something that you stand against, but there is compromise in there that is probably accomplishing some core goal for your constituency or the country, as a whole.
Politics is not black and white. Both Hillary and Bernie have and will continue to be champions for the people.
Do you honestly think his strategy and approach from 2008-2010 in terms of legislative negotiating and how he steered(or failed to steer) his historical amount of election energy was fully optimized once he took office?
I don't know how anyone can say "yes" with a straight face. Even when it was happening.
Heck just look at GAF during that period as proof. It was evident from very early on that Obama was taking a poor angle when it was clear how the Republicans were gonna play his presidency.
shinra-bansho
Member
They should stop getting so heated if they want to stay open and not full of grey.
Psychoward
Banned
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, we JUST got over this and you're trying to bring it up again
When Bernie said "unprecedented", it reminded me of this skit
https://youtu.be/BGRAonpLeQg?t=23
https://youtu.be/BGRAonpLeQg?t=23
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Obama had an astounding first two years all things considered, and the revisionism is strange to me. Its crazy to me how much people downplay how significant the ACA was, how important the initial stimulus was or the credit card reforms that almost no-one talks about. He got more done in 2 years than some presidents get done in 8, which is good because Congress kept him from doing much else
The political revolution.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
What he said was a blanket statement.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Going after Obama is the worst thing Bernie could possibly do. That line of attack will kill his campaign.
He needs to drop it, or smooth it out a bit, or he will lose.
If my mom ever found out Bernie went against Obama like that, she'd go from supporting him to Hillary, near instantly.
He needs to drop it, or smooth it out a bit, or he will lose.
If my mom ever found out Bernie went against Obama like that, she'd go from supporting him to Hillary, near instantly.
Yes it could be made. And that's where I stand in my opinion. I'm not certain, I'm not sure. I just think during a time of conflict he was right.
I'm not suggesting I can prove it. I was only responding to the assertion that I was factually wrong. As you seem to now suggest we simply can't be sure.
By MICHAEL WESSEL May 19, 2015
The full text of the TPP has been freely available since November.
Sanders Fans are talk like this
Hillary Fans talk like that
Anyway, this debate highlights the long standing strengths & weakness of both candidates. When it comes to class, Wall St., money in politics, Sanders is strong. This issue makes Hillary look bad and plays into the perception that she is untrustworthy. On Foreign Policy, Hillary sound like she knows what she is talking about and Sanders sounds like a History Professor. When the polls show that the public cares about Terrorism and ISIS, Sanders can't keep pivoting back to his stump speech on the Iraq vote and dictators.
Hillary Fans talk like that
Anyway, this debate highlights the long standing strengths & weakness of both candidates. When it comes to class, Wall St., money in politics, Sanders is strong. This issue makes Hillary look bad and plays into the perception that she is untrustworthy. On Foreign Policy, Hillary sound like she knows what she is talking about and Sanders sounds like a History Professor. When the polls show that the public cares about Terrorism and ISIS, Sanders can't keep pivoting back to his stump speech on the Iraq vote and dictators.
metalslimer
Member
I just don't really get how a Liberal American can support Obama or Hillary when Bernie is saying things that make more sense to us Liberal foreigners.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
What you don't seem to understand is the president is not a dictator. Bernie can talk about the revolution all he wants but it's not happening in America anytime soon. Republicans will control the house for at least the next term of the next president.
SolarPowered
Member
Feels more like manipulating them than talking or pandering to them. Obama isn't the prime directive and I welcome a democracy where our leaders can be questioned. Anything Sanders did or said as a member of congress probably pales in comparison to the shortsightedness from Blue Dog democrats or Joe Lieberman. If Bernie tried to burn down the stimulus package or the ACA then we've got something worth talking about.
I think they both had good nights, but Bernie needed a better one.
It is dumbfounding to watch Hillary sheepishly avoid embracing the establishment label. What's wrong with the establishment? The D establishment is enormously popular. Obama has 80% approval within the party. She shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Bernie is tapping into the same populist frustration as Trump or whatever the fuck is going on in the self-immolating Republican side of things—there's some overlap, but only barely. She took the money because running races is expensive and the money helps her win—electability is her number one strength, so why run?
Hillary willingly running head first into the Kissinger buzzsaw was embarassing.
But she also got in a very clean blow on Bernie's constant shitting on the "establishment" and, by proxy, Obama. And a lot more people will care about that than Kissinger, who has long faded from public memory.
Hillary willingly running head first into the Kissinger buzzsaw was embarassing.
But she also got in a very clean blow on Bernie's constant shitting on the "establishment" and, by proxy, Obama. And a lot more people will care about that than Kissinger, who has long faded from public memory.
Officerrob
Banned
It's hard to walk back him suggesting there be a primary challenger to Obama in 2012. I'm betting we see ads about this in places like South Carolina
Cow Mengde
Banned
Here's one from November.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trans-pacific-partnership-details-1.3308248
Here's another one on why TPP is evil.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/11/6/full_text_of_tpp_trade_deal
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Thanks SuperPACs
Because those people don't believe Bernie Sanders has credible plans for enacting his bold ideas.I just don't really get how a Liberal American can support Obama or Hillary when Bernie is saying things that make more sense to us Liberal foreigners.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
excelsiorlef
Member
Yeah what a weak retort there's a huge difference between running against Obama on a primary and wanting to run or someone to run against him while he's a sitting president. One is literally part of the process the other is political suicide for the incumbent party, but he only just became a Democrat because he can't win otherwise so what did he care in 2012.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I know that, but it would be a bad look for Hillary if she were to go that route.
Also, the GOP would use the information in their attack ads non-stop.
I hear this constantly. Why do you think change isn't possible? I know why you guys have been beaten down, but it's a shame.
I posted this before:
Tabris said:
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Things are gonna get a lot dirtier as South Carolina comes on the horizon. It's gonna get real ugly real quick.
Psychoward
Banned
I don't see how someone circumventing the fucked up two party system we have is worth criticizing.
There is nothing stopping them from doing it now.
But they wont. Because most Americans already know it because Bernie has been harping on it since day one and it's not going to change much.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh it can happen, but its not going to come from the presidency, and certainly not now. Revolution will be, at its most peaceful, a sweep of congress similar to the Tea Party (which Bernie is not showing the turnout numbers to even begin to suggest we will achieve)
I just don't really get how a Liberal American can support Obama or Hillary when Bernie is saying things that make more sense to us Liberal foreigners.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
Maybe because you don't understand the political dead-lock reality of the United States and how it's purposefully designed to not let radical changes like single-payer and free education be swept in from just 1 presidential election?
SolarPowered
Member
Most American liberals are probably barely center left by international standards. I include myself when I say that. It's no surprise that Americans are scared straight by the political reality of what is at risk in this election. I think what separates Bernie and Hillary supporters is how one side almost seems happy to take the incremental road (not all, mind you). Either way, most Hillary peeps are okay by me. Only the condescending and petty ones suck... which isn't all that different from what I'd have to say about extremist Sanders supporters.I just don't really get how a Liberal American can support Obama or Hillary when Bernie is saying things that make more sense to us Liberal foreigners.
Here's the kind of debates Canadian politicians are having right now:
Let's discuss the possibility of basic income for all.
Where should we sell marijuana? In Liquor stores or individual distribution centres?
Catch the fuck up America
Hillary supporters believe in change, they just believe in a more evolutionary political process than an attempt at a sudden drastic shift in the way how things work.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
We've seen the start of it tonight already.
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