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[nib95]

Because those people don't believe Bernie Sanders has credible plans for enacting his bold ideas.

Having the aspiration for such huge sweeping changes is the first step. Hilary doesn't even have that. Politics and policy wise, America is indeed behind, Eg compared to Canada and also Europe.

 

[Mr. RPG]

I missed the debate.

How was it?

Have the fights started yet between Hillary and Bernie supporters?

 

[The Librarian]

Having the aspiration for such huge sweeping changes is the first step.

It's also not enough, and that's all Bernie has.

 

[Paskil]

I hear this constantly. Why do you think change isn't possible? I know why you guys have been beaten down, but it's a shame.

I posted this before:

I would love to see this, but Democrats don't vote in midterms and election districts are ridiculously gerrymandered. Democrats would need historically record turnouts. Like unprecedented turnout to win the House. The Republicans are 99.999999999% likely to keep their majority.

And in before soyouresayingtheresachance.gif.

 

[royalan]

It is dumbfounding to watch Hillary sheepishly avoid embracing the establishment label. What's wrong with the establishment? The D establishment is enormously popular. Obama has 80% approval within the party. She shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Bernie is tapping into the same populist frustration as Trump or whatever the fuck is going on in the self-immolating Republican side of things—there's some overlap, but only barely. She took the money because running races is expensive and the money helps her win—electability is her number one strength, so why run?

It's hard to agree with the bolded. I think Bernie is tapping directly into the progressive version of that same well that Trump is.

You're right that Hillary should be proud of the democrat establishment. Problem is BOTH sides have made that word extremely toxic this election cycle, right or wrong.

 

[The Technomancer]

Having the aspiration for such huge sweeping changes is the first step. Hilary doesn't even have that. In that respect, America is indeed way behind, Eg compared to Canada and also Europe.

No its not. Not any more than me having the aspiration to become a millionaire is "the first step". Me determining what I can do to make a million dollars is the first step, and Bernie blatantly dodged the question of just what the first credible step towards free college is.

 

[injurai]

Hillary supporters believe in change, they just believe in a more evolutionary political process than an attempt at a sudden drastic shift in the way how things work.

Bold faced lie. Many Sanders supporters know and understand the realities of the political climate. They are rallying behind a democratization of the political process to lay the heading for our country in the years to come.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Have the fights started yet between Hillary and Bernie supporters?

Yes.

 

[Jonm1010]

What you don't seem to understand is the president is not a dictator. Bernie can talk about the revolution all he wants but it's not happening in America anytime soon. Republicans will control the house for at least the next term of the next president.

Bernie does however actually share ideas about how he will try and break the midterm cratering in Democratic turnout.

And I think he is on to something as well. Democrats need to create some sort of rhetorical strategy that keeps their base energized until the midterms. It is such a critical component to building the necessary legislative support to pass anything meaningful.

Hillary has nothing and neither did Obama. Heck no one in the party really has done much. It needs to be a political strategy from day 1. Bernie at least recognizes that and is making that a crucial component of his presidential strategy.

 

[ibyea]

The same exact thing would happen if rebels went against the government in the US. At the end of the day, Assad still had majority support of his people, so yes, at the very least you condemn and push for restraint, not empower and enable even more dangerous factions and Islamic extremists, who unsurprisingly (as if history hasn't taught the US anything) ended up being the worse evil.

The rebels are really not the worse evil as they are evil in different ways. Assad's government has the industrial scale torture going on along with a concerted campaign of scorched earth with the air strikes. Not to mention things would never have gotten this bad if Assad hadn't reacted with unnecessary force and released Jihaddists from prison as a strategy. Remember, the reason these protests started in the first place is because the institution he put in placed ripped the fingernails of some kids for spray painting anti government slogans. I don't think arming the rebels was a good idea but I don't think you quiet understand the sort of evil Assad's government is capable of if you think they are somehow worse.

 

[nib95]

It's also not enough, and that's all Bernie has.

Unless you can lend me your mystic meg future telling ball, I don't think you're in any position to state that. All you have is a pessimistic assumption. But imo a failed attempt is still better than no attempt at all.

The rebels are really not the worse evil as they are evil in different ways. Assad's government has the industrial scale torture going on along with a concerted campaign of scorched earth with the air strikes. Not to mention things would never have gotten this bad if Assad hadn't reacted with unnecessary force and released Jihaddists from prison as a strategy.

If the rebels never got the external support they did, I personally think Assad would have quashed them far more decisively. Instead, because the rebels actually had the means (through funding, political support, arms etc) to fight back and put up a good resistance, we ended up with something more dangerous and organised that transformed in to ISIS.

 

[Trojita]

I missed the debate.

How was it?

Have the fights started yet between Hillary and Bernie supporters?

Both candidates had strong showings.

and yes.

 

[Mecha]

I missed the debate.

How was it?

It was fine, both sides had some standouts. Hillary probably succeeded at appealing to a wider audience than Bernie did in the debate, but it largely covered similar ground to what they usually do.

 

[danm999]

I missed the debate.

How was it?

Have the fights started yet between Hillary and Bernie supporters?

Bernie agreed Wall Street are actually maybe pretty decent guys and Hillary swore to dismantle the US military if elected. It was weird.

 

[The Technomancer]

Bold faced lie. Many Sanders supporters know and understand the realities of the political climate. They are rallying behind a democratization of the political process to lay the heading for our country in the years to come.

Not in my experience. Many of them seem to believe that single payer healthcare, free college education, etc are things that Bernie will actually do

 

[Ogrekiller]

Having the aspiration for such huge sweeping changes is the first step. Hilary doesn't even have that. In that respect, America is indeed way behind, Eg compared to Canada and also Europe.

Canada had the (mis)fortune of having an unpopular PM go out and a young charismatic leader in Trudeau... sounds familiar.

Democrats don't even hold the House and Senate. Small wonder why people aren't willing to bet on risks when the president is the last trump card you hold.

 

[maabus1999]

It is dumbfounding to watch Hillary sheepishly avoid embracing the establishment label. What's wrong with the establishment? The D establishment is enormously popular. Obama has 80% approval within the party. She shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Bernie is tapping into the same populist frustration as Trump or whatever the fuck is going on in the self-immolating Republican side of things—there's some overlap, but only barely. She took the money because running races is expensive and the money helps her win—electability is her number one strength, so why run?

Hillary willingly running head first into the Kissinger buzzsaw was embarassing.

But she also got in a very clean blow on Bernie's constant shitting on the "establishment" and, by proxy, Obama. And a lot more people will care about that than Kissinger, who has long faded from public memory.

Well she is name dropping Obama and be like Obama left and right...that is established as you can get...

 

[BoboBrazil]

Who would Bernie even choose as vp if he got the nom? Who shares his beliefs? The guy is getting on up there in age and something could happen while he is in office.

 

[Gruco]

Bernie literally dodged the "how do you get states to pay for it" question on education without even a token of a real answer

Yeah, that was really shallow stuff. I want to sympathize with Bernie and his heart is definitely in the right place, but then an answer like this comes along. It's really hard to consider him a serious person. Problems like this on other policies too. Very optimistic cost and revenue projections all around.

 

[Sickboy007]

It is dumbfounding to watch Hillary sheepishly avoid embracing the establishment label. What's wrong with the establishment? The D establishment is enormously popular. Obama has 80% approval within the party. She shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Bernie is tapping into the same populist frustration as Trump or whatever the fuck is going on in the self-immolating Republican side of things—there's some overlap, but only barely. She took the money because running races is expensive and the money helps her win—electability is her number one strength, so why run?

Hillary willingly running head first into the Kissinger buzzsaw was embarassing.

But she also got in a very clean blow on Bernie's constant shitting on the "establishment" and, by proxy, Obama. And a lot more people will care about that than Kissinger, who has long faded from public memory.

Is it really? Her favorability numbers ain't so great.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Thanks SuperPACs

Blame Sanders for wanting to do it.

 

[The Librarian]

Unless you can lend me your mystic meg future telling ball, I don't think you're in any position to state that. All you have is a pessimistic assumption. But imo a failed attempt is still better than no attempt at all.

You're really, really barking up the wrong tree by saying I have "pessimistic assumption."

 

[Tabris]

I would love to see this, but Democrats don't vote in midterms and election districts are ridiculously gerrymandered. Democrats would need historically record turnouts. Like unprecedented turnout to win the House. The Republicans are 99.999999999% likely to keep their majority.

And in before soyouresayingtheresachance.gif.

See, beaten down population. The corporatocracy of America has done a number on a lot of the Liberal voters in the US and discouraged them from rising up.

 

[Black Republican]

Obama won the debate, easy

 

[eBay Huckster]

The political revolution.

more like the cultural revolution

shit's gonna be a graveyard

 

[Ogrekiller]

Unless you can lend me your mystic meg future telling ball, I don't think you're in any position to state that. All you have is a pessimistic assumption. But imo a failed attempt is still better than no attempt at all.

A failed attempt, unlike whatever you may think, is still a failure. Food for thought, I'm sure.

 

[Raxus]

Not in my experience. Many of them seem to believe that single payer healthcare, free college education, etc are things that Bernie will actually do

Nice ideas to be sure but it is something we really need specifics on besides tax the 1% to make it work. Also, how the hell he plans to pass it through a republican controlled congress hell bent on blocking everything.

 

[foxtrot3d]

The same exact thing would happen if rebels went against the government in the US. At the end of the day, Assad still had majority support of his people, so yes, at the very least you condemn and push for restraint, not empower and enable even more dangerous factions and Islamic extremists, who unsurprisingly (as if history hasn't taught the US anything) ended up being the worse evil.

So he should "condemn" and "criticize" when a despotic dictator uses lethal force against his unarmed civilian population who are merely crying out for democracy? Okay, gotcha.

Doctors Without Borders have too

I've read those provisions and nothing in the language supports that proposition,

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/tpp-elizabeth-warren-labor-118068

But yes, let's pretend Obama is not a self serving corporate shill. It's easily the most dirty underhanded thing he's doing.

What exactly are you harping about here? Warren seems to be complaining about not being able to disclose the contents of the TPP which are not final and still being negotiated. So what? She has no business with regards to the treaty making and negotiation process once the agreement is final it will be made available to the public and Congress to comment on and vote on.

I don't know where people get this weird notion that the TPP will somehow be snuck past Congress and the entire public. Not to mention that fact that large portions have already been leaked online.

 

[Mecha]

Bold faced lie. Many Sanders supporters know and understand the realities of the political climate. They are rallying behind a democratization of the political process to lay the heading for our country in the years to come.

I'm just repeating what I see a lot of Hillary supporters say, a lot of them don't believe that Bernie can get much done at all in the current climate. Hillary supporters seem to want a more gradual approach, slowly building on the policies that already exist, while Bernie supporters want a larger shift. Hillary supporters don't seem to think that this shift would be possible, and they usually believe that a more evolutionary process would be better. That's what I have observed anyways.

more like the cultural revolution

shit's gonna be a graveyard

Hell yeah, lets go!

 

[injurai]

See, beaten down population. The corporatocracy of America has done a number on a lot of the Liberal voters in the US and discouraged them from rising up.

Liberals end up as consumers of a different kind but consumers none the less. An unfortunate but true reality.

 

[ibyea]

Unless you can lend me your mystic meg future telling ball, I don't think you're in any position to state that. All you have is a pessimistic assumption. But imo a failed attempt is still better than no attempt at all.



If the rebels never got the external support they did, I think Assad would have quashed them far more decisively. Instead, because the rebels actually had the means to fight back and put up a good fight, we ended up with something more dangerous and organised that transformed in to ISIS.

I did some edits to my original post addressing some of your points here.

 

[Paskil]

See, beaten down population. The corporatocracy of America has done a number on a lot of the Liberal voters in the US and discouraged them from rising up.

I don't know about that. Apathy to the political process is nearly always the answer. "What does it matter, my vote doesn't change anything."

 

[Raxus]

Obama won the debate, easy

Let's dispel the idea Obama doesn't know what he is doing. Obama knows exactly what he is doing.

 

[The Librarian]

Bold faced lie. Many Sanders supporters know and understand the realities of the political climate. They are rallying behind a democratization of the political process to lay the heading for our country in the years to come.

If they did, they wouldn't be voting for him in the first place.

 

[Tesseract]

A failed attempt, unlike whatever you may think, is still a failure. Food for thought, I'm sure.

rotten fruit, tastes like kissinger

 

[Tabris]

A failed attempt, unlike whatever you may think, is still a failure. Food for thought, I'm sure.

You stumble, you get back up. You stumble again, you get back up. And eventually you succeed. But if you never try, you will never succeed.

For a country that's known for "land of the brave" and "taking risks for the American dream", it sure doesn't sound like it anymore.

 

[Mr. RPG]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'll go watch the debate.

 

[BitStyle]

Obama won the debate, easy

No lies detected

 

[Prologue]

If they did, they wouldn't be voting for him in the first place.

So in other words, settle?

 

[maabus1999]

So CNNs experts pretty much are saying Clinton had a great night and hit Sanders hard with details. Also the "your not in the white house yet" comment got some attention in a bad way.

 

[phanphare]

If they did, they wouldn't be voting for him in the first place.

"if only they knew what I know!"

 

[excelsiorlef]

Canada had the (mis)fortune of having an unpopular PM go out and a young charismatic leader in Trudeau... sounds familiar.

Democrats don't even hold the House and Senate. Small wonder why people aren't willing to bet on risks when the president is the last trump card you hold.

The Prime Minister is also way more powerful. A majority win gives him both 24 Sussex amd the majority of the House of Commons. It's basically if Sanders winning meant he also got complete control of the House of Reps

 

[dramatis]

I used to be neutral on Hillary, but the most debates I watch with her the more I despise her. Sure you care about the African American and LGBT communities. Sure all that money you get doesn't have any impact on any decisions you make.

Maybe that's what you feel coming from just the debates.

Hillary has spent her whole life advocating and working for children and women in the various places she's been: Arkansas, nationwide, New York, worldwide. You don't suffer years of defamation and get out across the country to promote healthcare legislation wearing a bulletproof vest under your clothes without caring. You don't change the policies of the State Department under the radar to make it LGBT-friendly without caring. You don't devote so much time and effort, and do it again and again with little acknowledgement from others, without actually caring.

For all the talk about Hillary Clinton taking Wall Street money and being wealthy, very few people seem to remember that she came from a middle class family and actually did work quite hard for the wealth and recognition she has today.

I think there is room to criticize. But I do not think hate is the go to point regarding Hillary Clinton. Especially since she has already shouldered so hate just for trying to be a good person.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Well she is name dropping Obama and be like Obama left and right...that is established as you can get...

She's trying to have it both ways. She can't actually say the word establisment since it's a toxic word now, but Obama is still fairly popular among Democrats. So her strategy going forward is to tie herself to Obama as closely as possible to get his fanbase to come to her side. And yeah, it does suggest that Obama will be looked at by future generations as the Democrats' Reagan.

 

[Dan]

Bernie literally dodged the "how do you get states to pay for it" question on education without even a token of a real answer

Exactly.

Having the aspiration for such huge sweeping changes is the first step. Hilary doesn't even have that. Politics and policy wise, America is indeed behind, Eg compared to Canada and also Europe.

Aspiration is worthless without a path.

 

[Mecha]

So CNNs experts pretty much are saying Clinton had a great night and hit Sanders hard with details. Also the "your not in the white house yet" comment got some attention in a bad way.

I think Bernie expected that to be more of a zinger than how it turned out.

 

[injurai]

I'm just repeating what I see a lot of Hillary supporters say, a lot of them don't believe that Bernie can get much done at all in the current climate. Hillary supporters seem to want a more gradual approach, slowly building on the policies that already exist, while Bernie supporters want a more drastic shift. Hillary supporters don't seem to think that this shift would be possible, and they usually believe that a more evolutionary process would be better. That's what I have observed anyways.

Well that's a fair assessment on general sentiments. But to those people I have to say it's wrong to think Sanders won't work with what he has. They are both going to have to deal with the congress that they are left with, and one is not going to be more productive than the other. Sanders however has a stronger record opposing dangerous slippery slope legislature and his ideal underpinnings offer a far more tantalizing direction for incremental shifts. I trust his judgement far more when it comes to veto power and executive orders.

 

[mackaveli]

Maybe that's what you feel coming from just the debates.

Hillary has spent her whole life advocating and working for children and women in the various places she's been: Arkansas, nationwide, New York, worldwide. You don't suffer years of defamation and get out across the country to promote healthcare legislation wearing a bulletproof vest under your clothes without caring. You don't change the policies of the State Department under the radar to make it LGBT-friendly without caring. You don't devote so much time and effort, and do it again and again with little acknowledgement from others, without actually caring.

For all the talk about Hillary Clinton taking Wall Street money and being wealthy, very few people seem to remember that she came from a middle class family and actually did work quite hard for the wealth and recognition she has today.

I think there is room to criticize. But I do not think hate is the go to point regarding Hillary Clinton. Especially since she has already shouldered so hate just for trying to be a good person.

Preach.

 

[Jenov]

So in other words, settle?

Yep. That's how politics and getting policy through has always worked. Settling on a compromise with people. Outside of extremes like Wars or Supreme Court decisions, it's always going to be a system of fighting to make compromises. It's designed that way.

 

[jtb]

You stumble, you get back up. You stumble again, you get back up. And eventually you succeed. But if you never try, you will never succeed.

For a country that's known for "land of the brave" and "taking risks for the American dream", it sure doesn't sound like it anymore.

bravery and stupidity are not mutually exclusive