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Did Monolith Soft run over Square-Enix with 'X'?

Mael

Member
With the right direction it can work. XIV ARR is proof of that. I await the day that FF is a game where everything IS CG. And I mean everything is super detailed from every conceivable distance. And isn't linear or shallow.

FFXI was more than competent so XIV can certainly be saved, I was more thinking about how they tried to enter into SFX and failed while they could have done great in the animation department...although they always go for realism which isn't ideal...
I personally never expect a super detailed nonlinear deep game from anyone, I don't know why I would trust SE for that though.

Budgets are largely used to hire people. You just can't throw money into a machine and let it output a better game.
With a bigger budget you can have more teams making more products too.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
FFXI was more than competent so XIV can certainly be saved, I was more thinking about how they tried to enter into SFX and failed while they could have done great in the animation department...although they always go for realism which isn't ideal...
I personally never expect a super detailed nonlinear deep game from anyone, I don't know why I would trust SE for that though.

Just saiyan what I would like to see. I expect Square to never deliver on that front.

A BERSERK Final Fantasy, and a Final Fantasy starring GILGAMESH is all I want out of the FF franchise.

But more importantly I want new IP's.

Yeah it seems like a really troubling year. Their western studios don't seem to have anything cooking up that can release in the near future. Square Japan is all working on FFXIV, which looks awesome but it's just one game. They would usually pump out quality handheld stuff but even that is out of the question now. And then there's LR which would actually work great as a 3DS title, but not as full console game. So they have 3 games this year only.

Maybe they'll have something for the launch of the new consoles, though I doubt it.

And maybe...just maybe...E3 2013 they'll start hyping up Versus for a Christmas 2013 release.

Dunno what happened to Tabata either and Ito is probably lounging around.

Furthermore I kinda hang on to Square just for Tabata and because Eidos still retains the Legacy of Kain IP.
 

Famassu

Member
Give me a reason to expect VsXIII to not turn to shit when they couldn't even manage to make a decent console game in forever, as they say "you're only as good as your last game"
Dissidia 012
TWEWY
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep
Bravely Default
Dragon Quest IX
Type-0
FFXII
etc.

They've developed many awesome games in the last few years (it matters jackshit if they are handheld titles, given how impressive many of those have been) and Nomura is one person that can be found behind many of them (whether that's simply kind of backing a project and giving it a push & support in front of execs deciding how much to give to certain projects, like TWEWY, or if he's been the producer, creative or co-director like Theatrhythm & Kingdom Hearts: BBS). I can never understand why people get so stuck with the quality of XIII & XIV 1.0 as if they are the showcases of what Square Enix can do. Almost all of the rest of their actual development has resulted in games that are at the very least decent, mostly even great. There's a lot of talent at Square Enix and they've got a heck of a lot of proof of it.

The reason why their console output hasn't been up to par so far this gen and why that shouldn't be a problem from this point onwards (unless they put a completely incompetent director on the job, like Toriyama) has been explained so many times in this thread and other threads that it's getting annoying explaining it to ignorant, blind haters who refuse to think about anything logically.

1) they haven't really even developed that many console games because they were going through a huge shift in their home console level development (trying to come up with more unified, efficient development tools, multiplatform development). Meanwhile they rushed out XIII & XIV and have been trying to fix the situation after their releases didn't satisfy fans.

2) they've pretty much had their most talented people working on handheld titles in the meanwhile, as that's where the money has been in Japan and they don't require massive teams, while a part of the company was trying to figure out how they could get to the kind of quality people expect from them (and have gotten with their handheld titles) on HD consoles while being more efficient (that's basically where Luminous tool set comes from).


How many guys are working at Square-Enix already ?
AFAIK, Square Enix Japan is a fairly small developer in comparison to how many games they release every year, as in, the size of SQEX as a developer is in the hundreds, not in the thousands. I mean, it says a lot when the, what, was it 300-400 in-house people that have been put to work on XIV 2.0 pretty much cripple all/most of their HD console development.
 

Mael

Member
True, but more teams making more games wouldn't guarantee that the quality gets better too.

Actually it's more likely that one of the team manage to make a quality game that is a hit (more games == more chances).

Just saiyan what I would like to see. I expect Square to never deliver on that front.

A BERSERK Final Fantasy, and a Final Fantasy starring GILGAMESH is all I want out of the FF franchise.

But more importantly I want new IP's.

Ok, at this point I'd take anything Lord Kawazu throw at us...

Dunno what happened to Tabata either and Ito is probably lounging around.

Furthermore I kinda hang on to Square just for Tabata and because Eidos still retains the Legacy of Kain IP.

They're probably playing WoW with Kawazu while they watch Toriyama drown in his fantasy.

Dissidia 012
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep
Bravely Default
Dragon Quest IX
Type-0
etc.
Let's remove stuffs that were released before we got anything on VsXIII :p

They've developed many awesome games in the last few years (it matters jackshit if they are handheld titles, given how impressive many of those have been) and Nomura is one person that can be found behind many of them (whether that's simply kind of backing a project and giving it a push & support in front of execs deciding how much to give to certain projects, like TWEWY, or if he's been the producer, creative or co-director like Theatrhythm & Kingdom Hearts: BBS). I can never understand why people get so stuck with the quality of XIII & XIV 1.0 as if they are the showcases of what Square Enix can do. Almost all of the rest of their actual development has resulted in games that are at the very least decent, mostly even great. There's a lot of talent at Square Enix and they've got a heck of a lot of proof of it.

SE have proven to be superbly incompetent in making huge project, that's why it doesn't matter for VsXIII that they did 10 fantastic small projects before.
FFXII and FFXIII suffered from the same problems, they learned nothing from FFXII.
that's why people are worried about VsXIII and XIV.
We know they have talented people, that never was the problem.

The reason why their console output hasn't been up to par so far this gen and why that shouldn't be a problem (unless they put a completely incompetent director on the job, like Toriyama) has been explained so many times in this thread and other threads that it's getting annoying explaining it to ignorant, blind haters who refuse to think about anything logically.

Toriyama worked on plenty other things that are not FFXIII, same with Kitase. Similarly for the one that was fired for XIV.
That's why it's so shocking and how they lost all goodwill after that.
Heck FFXIII is a freaking masterpiece compared to Other M for example so there's worse, still they've released nothing on the scale of VsXIII or XIV that warrant any optimism.
Since the problem has always been scale with them it's pretty expected that their smaller projects would be better.
And I expect your example to be better than that Agni tech demo because that's not convincing at all.

1) they haven't really even developed that many console games because they were going through a huge shift in their home console level development (trying to come up with more unified, efficient development tools, multiplatform development). Meanwhile they rushed out XIII & XIV and have been trying to fix the situation after their releases didn't satisfy fans.

XIV was rushed, there's nothing much they could have done with XIII that more time would have lead to something acceptable.

2) they've pretty much had their most talented people working on handheld titles in the meanwhile, as that's where the money has been in Japan and they don't require massive teams, while a part of the company was trying to figure out how they could get to the kind of quality people expect from them (and have gotten with their handheld titles) on HD consoles while being more efficient (that's basically where Luminous tool set comes from).

Hmm, they mostly had their other director working on handheld, most of their handheld stuffs weren't inhouse either.

AFAIK, Square Enix Japan is a fairly small developer in comparison to how many games they release every year, as in, the size of SQEX as a developer is in the hundreds, not in the thousands. I mean, it says a lot when the, what, was it 300-400 in-house people that have been put to work on XIV 2.0 pretty much cripple all/most of their HD console development.

That's still way way more than the dev we're talking about here.
The size comparison is still valid.
 

Daedardus

Member
Actually it's more likely that one of the team manage to make a quality game that is a hit (more games == more chances).

But it's also more likely that they bring out bombas, which essentially boils down to a greater risk of losing money.
 

Famassu

Member
Yeah it seems like a really troubling year. Their western studios don't seem to have anything cooking up that can release in the near future.
Well...

Tomb Raider
Just Cause 3
Thief 4
Kane & Lynch 3
Deus Ex continuation (yeah, 3 took forever to be released, but they could probably develop a sequel in a shorter time span)

Just Cause 3 & Thief 4, at the very least, should be quite far into development.

Plus hasn't their western side founded a lot of new studios (or expanded old ones) that could have something brewing for this year?
 

Eidan

Member
They've developed many awesome games in the last few years (it matters jackshit if they are handheld titles, given how impressive many of those have been) and Nomura is one person that can be found behind many of them (whether that's simply kind of backing a project and giving it a push & support in front of execs deciding how much to give to certain projects, like TWEWY, or if he's been the producer, creative or co-director like Theatrhythm & Kingdom Hearts: BBS). I can never understand why people get so stuck with the quality of XIII & XIV 1.0 as if they are the showcases of what Square Enix can do.

It does matter that all the games you listed are handheld. You don't think it's very telling that the only home console game you listed came out six years ago, and was on an entirely different generation of consoles? People get "stuck" on the quality of XIII and XIV because they are a showcase of what Square can do...because that's what Square has done this generation. There's no reason to believe that Versus would be any different just because Square has made decent handheld games. It's a silly notion.
 

Mael

Member
But it's also more likely that they bring out bombas, which essentially boils down to a greater risk of losing money.

Not if you manage your budget like any sane person would.
Not all games need to have the budget of the latest Halo.
 

Eidan

Member
On PC, yes.

But saying a PC game looks better than a console game is redundant.

I thought Skyrim looked ugly, even on PC.

I wasn't even talking about the PC.

I personally think the environments seen in sections like this:
ibc6kMRTtDVa7p.gif


Look awful in comparison to any given environment seen in Skyrim.

Seeing Noctis and his crew fight in those barren streets that seemed to follow the Kingdom Hearts method of environment detail and design was a turn off even when the gameplay trailer first dropped.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
You do realize that Versus footage is over 2 years old now right? The game has switched engines since then.
 

Famassu

Member
Dunno what happened to Tabata either and Ito is probably lounging around.
Both have said to be working on new, big projects after their last ones were shipped. They are probably in pre-development/early development phases until they have the workforce to move forward (that is, when XIV 2.0 isn't hogging most of it).


It does matter than all the games you listed are handheld. You don't think it's very telling that the only home console game your listed came out six years ago, and was an entirely different generation of consoles? People get "stuck" on the quality of XIII and XIV because they are a showcase of what Square can do...because that's what Square has done this generation. There's no reason to believe that Versus would be any different just because Square has made decent handheld games. It's a silly notion.
No, they shouldn't be used to judge what they can do, that's idiotic. They have skilled people working for them. XIII & XIV 1.0 are both showcases of incompetent directors being in helm and not knowing what the hell they are doing while they were also suffering technical difficulties, which caused them to rush the games out once they finally DID get rid of the problems.

Versus XIII doesn's suffer from those problems because they've made sure they wouldn't. For Versus, they started the pre-development by just getting to know PS3 as a platform to develop for and they've been refining the features of the game instead of cutting features out, like with XIII. The handheld titles unarguably show that they've still got it. They've been working on their development pipelines so that they could work as efficiently on home console games as they do on handhelds so that they could focus on creating compelling content instead of fighting technical problems all the time. Development of big games is always challenging, but it's impossible to maintain a good quality if there are huge problems. Now they've gotten (mostly) rid of those problems, so that should mean they can focus on content again.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Both have said to be working on new, big projects after their last ones were shipped. They are probably in pre-development/early development phases until they have the workforce to move forward (that is, when XIV 2.0 isn't hogging most of it).

Type-1 Framework was done, I know that much. Tabata also expressed interest in a Before Crisis Remake for 3DS, and has also expressed he wished to make what he deemed a "true" sequel to the Parasite Eve IP.

He did mention a possible sequel thing for Type 0's world, but speculation at best.
 

Eidan

Member
No, they shouldn't be used to judge what they can do, that's idiotic. They have skilled people working for them. XIII & XIV 1.0 are both showcases of incompetent directors being in helm and not knowing what the hell they are doing while they were also suffering technical difficulties, which caused them to rush the games out once they finally DID get rid of the problems.

It's idiotic to judge the potential quality of games a developer makes based on the quality of games the developer has made?

iDMMS1y9BSsk9.gif
 

dramatis

Member
I wasn't even talking about the PC.

I personally think the environments seen in sections like this:

Look awful in comparison to any given environment seen in Skyrim.

Seeing Noctis and his crew fight in those barren streets that seemed to follow the Kingdom Hearts method of environment detail and design was a turn off even when the gameplay trailer first dropped.
A complete game (barring Bethesda games' penchant for bugs) isn't exactly comparable to something that was probably still in alpha.

I think the Skyrim/Versus comparisons in here might be a bit fueled by preferences in art style though.

That said, Square Enix proper hasn't really been run over, since they seem to be profiting well enough from all their mobile and browser excursions. That is disappointing to the console player, but right now, just work with what we got (LR lol). Versus hasn't seen daylight for over two years, the closest game for comparison to X is LR, and X's reveal was more impressive than LR's. Ultimately it's not a huge deal to Monolith if they look better than SE, this is a problem for SE to solve—and we won't see the results of any changes they implemented for a few years anyway (Luminous, team structures?, the damage to development done by 14, etc.).
 

Mael

Member
No, they shouldn't be used to judge what they can do, that's idiotic. They have skilled people working for them. XIII & XIV 1.0 are both showcases of incompetent directors being in helm and not knowing what the hell they are doing while they were also suffering technical difficulties, which caused them to rush the games out once they finally DID get rid of the problems.

Which is also what happened with FFXII and they said it wouldn't happen on XIII too...

Versus XIII doesn's suffer from those problems because they've made sure they wouldn't. For Versus, they started the pre-development by just getting to know PS3 as a platform to develop for and they've been refining the features of the game instead of cutting features out, like with XIII. The handheld titles unarguably show that they've still got it. They've been working on their development pipelines so that they could work as efficiently on home console games as they do on handhelds so that they could focus on creating compelling content instead of fighting technical problems all the time. Development of big games is always challenging, but it's impossible to maintain a good quality if there are huge problems. Now they've gotten (mostly) rid of those problems, so that should mean they can focus on content again.

In that the endless XIII games show that they can release game quickly (or that they can reuse asset quickly :p) but that's the only hint we even have that they won't fall to the same traps they fell for FFXII and FFXIII.
I'm not a betting man but the odds are against them this time.
 

Eidan

Member
A complete game (barring Bethesda games' penchant for bugs) isn't exactly comparable to something that was probably still in alpha.

I don't disagree. Which is why I was surprised that comparisons between Skyrim and Versus were even made.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
For Square Enix's sake, I hope Versus gets released before X. It raises a hell lot of question otherwise.

Too late. I already have several questions that won't be answered.

Could probably write a book on Versus's development timeline.
 

kpjolee

Member
Didnt SE made significant compromise with FFXIII because of development cost? I think I saw some article talking about that some time ago.
 

Mxrz

Member
It's true. Skyrim looks a lot better than Versus.

This is pretty subjective since both games are heavy on their own aesthetics that applies not just to the art assets, but the tech processes used too. Its neat to live in an age where tech has expanded enough to make it a consideration.

Not seen the Agni demo mentioned, but as far as graphical prowess goes, very few companies are on SE's level. Who knows if we'll ever get a game on par, but it does show what they're capable of. In my SE dreams, its how XV will eventually look. (Even if its in 2018.)
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Didnt SE made significant compromise with FFXIII because of development cost? I think I saw some article talking about that some time ago.

If by compromise you mean a 2.1% net gain with XIII-2(heavily due to reused assets)+DLC+Browser Games+Eidos Games then yes. But that was a long time ago.

Furthermore, with what "looks" better doesn't matter to me. I don't enjoy games based on graphics alone, I play a game for what the game provides in itself. I seek an immersive game that brings a story and world to life.

There is a difference between "looking" better and actually "being" better.
 

Eidan

Member
This is pretty subjective since both games are heavy on their own aesthetics that applies not just to the art assets, but the tech processes used too. Its neat to live in an age where tech has expanded enough to make it a consideration.

Not seen the Agni demo mentioned, but as far as graphical prowess goes, very few companies are on SE's level. Who knows if we'll ever get a game on par, but it does show what they're capable of. In my SE dreams, its how XV will eventually look. (Even if its in 2018.)

I dream of a day when Square just goes the Capcom route and outsources the franchise. What was the story behind that western developer that played around with a FF that was set in Ivalice? I remember seeing some VERY rough footage, and that had me more excited than anything I'd seen from Square in a while.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I dream of a day when Square just goes the Capcom route and outsources the franchise. What was the story behind that western developer that played around with a FF that was set in Ivalice? I remember seeing some VERY rough footage, and that had me more excited than anything I'd seen from Square in a while.

Square said that it didn't look like Final Fantasy and gave them obscure and inefficient ways to communicate with the developer. Believe it was GRIN or something like that.
 

Mael

Member
Agreed. Looks more like MH with a bit of mecha added in.

I always laugh when people look at X and Xb and say how it's like MH or anything.
The game is pretty much a more competent FFXII but yeah I guess that game was also like MH...
 

Narolf

Banned
I wasn't even talking about the PC.

I personally think the environments seen in sections like this:
ibc6kMRTtDVa7p.gif


Look awful in comparison to any given environment seen in Skyrim.

Seeing Noctis and his crew fight in those barren streets that seemed to follow the Kingdom Hearts method of environment detail and design was a turn off even when the gameplay trailer first dropped.
Only Youtube-played Skyrim, but I don't see how the comparison is warranted, even while taking the few bits of Versus' gameplay footage released so far. You're comparing an A-RPG (as in "American") using a first person point of view and that focuses on exploration/interaction with the environment to a J-RPG using regular camera and that focuses on action/flashiness. In a word, Versus might require more resources than Skyrim, moreover if it remains exclusive to the PS3. Sounds like your grief is more over aesthetics than technique.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I always laugh when people look at X and Xb and say how it's like MH or anything.
The game is pretty much a more competent FFXII but yeah I guess that game was also like MH...

May as well say any game that has you attacking a "monster" is a MH knockoff.
 
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