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DigitalFoundry: X1 memory performance improved for production console/ESRAM 192 GB/s)

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E

Eusis

Member
Truespeed said:
I currently have a PS1 and have never had to do that. Have you ever owned one?
Click to expand...
Had one a year after US release with the disc drive positioned close to the power. Yeah, I had to do this, before it finally gave out entirely (IIRC my dad did try to repair it.) I have trouble digging up pictures, but they eventually moved the drive to the right side of the tray to be away from the heat rather than keeping it at the top part.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
Vestal said:
Here you go from the Wiki



All companies screw up something to cut costs. Doesn't make Sony any better or worse for doing it. But don't slobber all over them, because they have issues like everyone else.
Click to expand...

Who said sony is better to the others? We have just said until now, sony has done a better job with ps4 project, who know if will have hardware issues; in theory seem quite solid but seriously what microsoft has done with xbone appears a complete disaster in comparison. I don't think there is something of fanboystich to claim this.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Orca said:
I think every single result with both consoles has it this way: "for both the PlayStation®4 computer entertainment system and Xbox One, the all-in-one games and entertainment system from Microsoft"

That copy and paste is actually from the Elder Scrolls Online release, by the way. If I get time I'll see if I can find Sony's 'official usage' guidelines for the PS4.
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There was the Battlefield 4 one I saw, but that seemed to be from an anime blog or something. I assume most just copy paste press releases though.

And like I said it IS nitpicking, Computer Entertainment System is still fancy PR speak, but it sounds drier and more just a fancy way of saying "this is a video game system that might do other stuff too", whereas Microsoft comes off as trying to slip/force in some free marketing. Kind of the difference between PlayStation Move Features/Supports PlayStation Move and Better with Kinect: one's advertising that it has the functionality, the other's trying to play up that functionality as inherently better for the game when it's a matter of opinion, and when just supporting that peripheral should be enough incentive on its own if you cared.
 
C

cartridge

Banned
klaus said:
Care to elaborate what your opinion has to do with anything regarding this thread? Not that it's not appreciated..

Oh and a small detail: Cell R&D was anything but in-house, so much about "all" R&D in-house, after all it was the center piece of the PS3 and Sony's promotion.. And not compromise quality for a few bucks, how bout leaving HDMI cables out of the box?

But let's get back to topic, shall we?
Click to expand...

What my opinion has to do with this thread is, despite the purported 88% performance gain, I think the X1 is an inferior product.

Cell was developed as a collaboration between Sony, Toshiba and IBM, all with a long history engineering and manufacturing computing hardware. Now compare that to MS handing over product design to a San Francisco based marketing firm that makes trendy overpriced bracelets for Nike.

As for the HDMI cables. Do you even remember how expensive HDMI cables were in 2006? Excluding them was hardly a compromise to the quality of the PS3's design.
 
O

Orca

Member
Eusis said:
There was the Battlefield 4 one I saw, but that seemed to be from an anime blog or something. I assume most just copy paste press releases though.

And like I said it IS nitpicking, Computer Entertainment System is still fancy PR speak, but it sounds drier and more just a fancy way of saying "this is a video game system that might do other stuff too", whereas Microsoft comes off as trying to slip/force in some free marketing. Kind of the difference between PlayStation Move Features/Supports PlayStation Move and Better with Kinect: one's advertising that it has the functionality, the other's trying to play up that functionality as inherently better for the game when it's a matter of opinion, and when just supporting that peripheral should be enough incentive on its own if you cared.
Click to expand...

I think Sony's is purportedly at least partly for tax purposes as well. Something about import rules or some obscure crap like that.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Orca said:
I think Sony's is purportedly at least partly for tax purposes as well. Something about import rules or some obscure crap like that.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they were trying to bill the systems as computers for quite awhile in Europe. In the end it completely failed however even when the PS3 could literally be a linux PC, so I think now it's just a title rather than a serious attempt at tax evasion.
 
Vestal

Vestal

Gold Member
cartridge said:
What my opinion has to do with this thread is, despite the purported 88% performance gain, I think the X1 is an inferior product.

Cell was developed as a collaboration between Sony, Toshiba and IBM, all with a long history engineering and manufacturing computing hardware. Now compare that to MS handing over product design to a San Francisco based marketing firm that makes trendy overpriced bracelets for Nike.

As for the HDMI cables. Do you even remember how expensive HDMI cables were in 2006? Excluding them was hardly a compromise to the quality of the PS3's design.
Click to expand...

*Sigh* Don't bring up Cell. Lets put the cards on the table here, for the use as far as Gaming Cell was a mistake. It cost Kutagari his Job at Sony, and almost caused the entire Playstation division to go belly up. It was just not the right type of Architecture for gaming, the learning curve in regards to adapting your style of coding was too high. They learned their lesson and went with a much simpler design now.
 
K

klaus

Member
omonimo said:
Probably because flip xbox 360 not fix it, I suppose?
Click to expand...

This quote was about the PS2 drive failures, but nice try.


cartridge said:
What my opinion has to do with this thread is, despite the purported 88% performance gain, I think the X1 is an inferior product.

Cell was developed as a collaboration between Sony, Toshiba and IBM, all with a long history engineering and manufacturing computing hardware. Now compare that to MS handing over product design to a San Francisco based marketing firm that makes trendy overpriced bracelets for Nike.

As for the HDMI cables. Do you even remember how expensive HDMI cables were in 2006? Excluding them was hardly a compromise to the quality of the PS3's design.
Click to expand...

So your logic is: because you are a happy Sony customer, Microsoft must surely fail at making consoles? And are we seriously comparing the console design (as in: the casing and the look of the controller) with the hardware design now? Are you trolling?
 
E

Eusis

Member
Vestal said:
*Sigh* Don't bring up Cell. Lets put the cards on the table here, for the use as far as Gaming Cell was a mistake. It cost Kutagari his Job at Sony, and almost caused the entire Playstation division to go belly up. It was just not the right type of Architecture for gaming, the learning curve in regards to adapting your style of coding was too high. They learned their lesson and went with a much simpler design now.
Click to expand...
Man, I really wish they just jumped on the x86 boat right then and there, we'd probably have had proper BC this time and probably a cheaper system, even if it's just by $100 due to blu-ray.

Although this does mean we can say the PS3 was better at curing cancer than it ever was at playing games! That's not a bad way to screw up.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
googleplex said:
Any clarification from DF on how the ESRAM could get a 88% bandwidth boost?

Or are can we assume that it was a bad source with bad math?

Or is it savf to assume a 50mhz downgrade for the GPU?
Click to expand...

Nope, and that's why the thread has stagnated.
Other then a few vague twitter responses, they have really said nothing.
 
N

NemesisPrime

Banned
cartridge said:
My opinion:
- I feel that Sony has proven they are better engineers and manufacturers of electronic devices.
- I trust they will not compromise quality in order to save a few dollars.
- I also appreciate that all R&D for the PS4 (and PS3) was in-house, and not contracted out to some stupid west coast "artsy" marketing firm that resulted in the 360's craptastic design.
- I do not trust Microsoft
Click to expand...

Wow...

I am outa here.
 
C

cartridge

Banned
klaus said:
So your logic is: because you are a happy Sony customer, Microsoft must surely fail at making consoles? And are we seriously comparing the console design (as in: the casing) with the hardware design now? Are you trolling?
Click to expand...

No, my logic is the first iteration of the 360 was a piece of shit and I don't trust MS. Plus, I am so far pleased with Sony's ability to engineer and manufacture electronic devices, especially in contrast to MS.

The enclosure very much a part of the overall hardware design, especially with closed devices such as gaming consoles.
 
G

guch20

Banned
Glorified G said:
It's more inconceivable that someone played a demo that wasn't available on the show floor and only accessed to the developers of the game itself. There is a reason why all the demos looked the same.

If the dev let anyone just "mess" with it then they shouldn't have a problem being it available to the public.
Click to expand...
Maybe someone should tweet Sucker Punch and see if they were having behind closed doors demos, and if they remember just handing some dude the controller.
 
F

Freki

Member
For people comparing RROD to other failures - here's a little background:
Takahashi reports in August 2005 during the early stages of the Xbox 360’s development warnings were already being raised but were ignored. An engineer raised his hand and said, “Stop. You have to shut down the line.” This wasn’t just a brief moment. The engineer spoke up repeatedly. According to the article that engineer, who remains anonymous, had deep experience in manufacturing. When production results were really off kilter, stopping a line and tracing a problem back to its roots was the answer. Managers and executives, higher-ranking engineers ignored the warnings and decided to go forward. At the time, 68 out of every 100 Xbox 360s made were not working. Worse still, when the first batch of the system's three-core CPUs rolled off the line, only 16 percent worked.
Click to expand...
Source

whistleblower gets fired for speaking to Takahashi
 
G

guch20

Banned
bishoptl said:
We're getting way off topic here.

Hawk269 - you will PM me your credentials. We'll get to the bottom of this one way or the other. This derail has gone on long enough. You've got an hour.

Ok, back to the music.
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Oh shit, didn't see this. Sorry.

And god dammit bish, you rule.
 
C

cartridge

Banned
klaus said:
Yep, one of the companies extended the warranty to fix the serious problem for free :)
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Yeah and what percentage of PS2's had this disc read error? Certainly not a whopping 33%+ of the entire install base. They extended the warranty because they sold you a piece of shit and were obligated to fix it.
 
J

Jabba

Banned
ethomaz said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but PS4 have dedicated hardware for almost everything... eg. sound, download, share feature... at the PS4 reveal they talked that no resource for any of these functions is stolen from games.

There is even an ARM to run stuff.
Click to expand...

Cerny also said they allowed for the system to grow over time in the last key note video he spoke at.

He didn't go into detail about it.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Jabba said:
Cerny also said they allowed for the system to grow over time in the last key note video he spoke at.

He didn't go into detail about it.
Click to expand...
Isn't that the generic developers will get better over time at exploiting the hardware?
The compute stuff that can be used in scenarios where the GPU is not 100% utilized would be such a thing. Right now for launch games I bet it isn't at all used for multiplat games and even KZ:SF is only using it for some form of garbage collection. (Not the literal garbage collection from programming.)
 
F

FINALBOSS

Banned
Vestal said:
Here you go from the Wiki



All companies screw up something to cut costs. Doesn't make Sony any better or worse for doing it. But don't slobber all over them, because they have issues like everyone else.
Click to expand...


I'm all for being impartial--but have you said anything even remotely positive about PS4?
 
C

coldone

Member
M

McSpidey

Member
Jabba said:
Cerny also said they allowed for the system to grow over time in the last key note video he spoke at.

He didn't go into detail about it.
Click to expand...

Didn't he directly reference Sony's choice to spend the silicon budget to add additional GPU power (for future GPGPU use) instead of Microsoft's choice of embedded ram there? And GPGPU techniques will take time to master? That's all I took it to mean.
 
E

ekim

Member
I found a comment from an Indie dev about the article and Leadbetter:
Uh, no it doesn't, he has no basis for that for starters.
He's heard that the Xbox One driver software is less mature, and we all know that.
But he likes to down play the GPU at ever turn, he says the ESRAM is capable of this, but probably only really this (133gb/s).


The things is, he is likely right, but I can also tell you the same hold true for Sony's theoretical 176 gb/s.
It aint about to hit that anytime soon, nor does it do it half as efficient as the Xbox One GPU.

He doesn't even go into the implications of concurrent read/write (which is something i have been banging on about for a wee while now). 2 bus's are better than one. One alone being able to do it concurrently is even nicer.

People underestimate those under-spoken DB/CB blocks. They are extremely useful, powerful and far faster than any memory on either the PS4 or Xbox One memory system.


Fast render paths and pre-out on depth tests at a vertex level? This isn't something the PS4 GPU can do.

A depth test takes up zero bandwidth when done (correctly)on the Xbox one, that's a soak on the PS4's bandwidth.

While the GPU on the PS4 is strong in compute,its likely to be held at arms length in terms of render speed, even with twice the ROP.
Click to expand...
http://www.psu.com/forums/showthrea...-hugely-underestimated-claim-developers/page3

I don't know what to make out of this - sounds reasonable but afaik it is not possible to have a bus that can read and write at the same time and the depth/color block also sounds familiar when you read the GCN white paper but I'm not sure here.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I have to contest this Infamous: Second Son point. Yes, it has pop-in and 2d trees, but what do you expect? The PS4 does not have limitless power and this is a launch window title. It's going to have problems even when it ships.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Y2Kev said:
I have to contest this Infamous: Second Son point. Yes, it has pop-in and 2d trees, but what do you expect? The PS4 does not have limitless power and this is a launch window title. It's going to have problems even when it ships.
Click to expand...

And to be fair, Infamous is an open world game, and I'm not sure if Forza 5 is. Anyway, no more derail from me.
 
T

TheGuardian

Member
ekim said:
I found a comment from an Indie dev about the article and Leadbetter:

http://www.psu.com/forums/showthrea...-hugely-underestimated-claim-developers/page3

I don't know what to make out of this - sounds reasonable but afaik it is not possible to have a bus that can read and write at the same time and the depth/color block also sounds familiar when you read the GCN white paper but I'm not sure here.
Click to expand...

CB/DB blocks are a basic part of every GCN gpu (and if you change the names, they basically exist in almost every GPU).
 
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