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[Bizzquik]

We're something like 17 months out, but I want to hear how difficult it will be to upgrade resolution and/or frames per second on Project Scorpio.

My dream is that it'd be easy enough - and cost effective enough - that publishers would allow their development teams to go back to their original Xbox One release and make improvements for Scorpio owners. Maybe the Xbox store website would even have an indicator for games that were optimized for Scorpio.

I might actually play Far Cry 4 on consoles, for instance, if it was locked at 1080p/60fps.

 

[ScatheZombie]

I think we should care more about how developers feel about this. It's one thing for a CEO to say their teams love it, but it's another for a developer to say it themselves.

There's really not a lot of reasons for developers to not like this approach either. It gives them a 'guaranteed' console backwards compatibility option extending the potential lifetime of their products. It allows them to showcase their work on newer hardware while still being able to sell to an established market. And it's not like they haven't been making multiple performance tiers for their games for years if they've been releasing anything on PC or mobile.

It extends a bunch of the benefits that were previously only available on PC while still limiting your potential configurations to 2 (or 4 for multiplat) models.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Right, but if you already own Uncharted 4 on PS4, then the gatekeepers are mandating that the update be free for you. You do not have to buy that software again. (at least, from what we've heard from EuroGamer on the leaked guidelines)

Here's a potential loophole, Game of the Year editions.It's a different SKU, a different bundle, and now with a remastered Neo/Scorpio version.

 

[Trago]

A new generation only disrupts their service games and raises their development costs. If Sony and MS can keep players engaged without that disruption it would be amazing for them.

I've been in favor of this approach for years! Set a foundation and build on it over time. Build that catalog.

A 'new' generation or hard reset ruins all of that work.

 

[TheYanger]

Of course they love it, now they can sell twice as many remasters as they already do. Can't wait for Uncharted 4K and Battlefield 1 Scorpio Edition.

That's actually the exact opposite of what it means for the industry going forward. You might be able to see like one more iteration of remaster for the earlier titles this gen the NEXT iteration down the line, but that's be it. games made now are going to scale like PC games do, if you want to remake something it's going to have to be more than a remaster and certainly you're going to need to wait longer to do it.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

Would love to see how they plan budgets for studios with 2 new configs on the way. I'm with others people like Ubisoft probably will love it because their engine optimization has been utter shit.

Same with EA's to some extent, but I honestly think it's not frostbite issue as it's more they need to give engineers more time with the engine so we dont get battlefield 4 problems at launch.

I would like to hear from actual developers that already seem to have issues doing 3 platforms. Now they will have to in essence do 5.

Every Frosbite game after BF4 launched without issues. I dont get why this comments still pop up.
On top of that the engine is heavily well optimized, sadly not so well made for the current Hardware when it comes to 60fps Frostbite games. But that, thank god will change with this Upgrades.
Especially on Xbox. From 720p/60fps to whatever they are aiming for pn Scorpio will be a massive difference.

And i dont think it will be that hard for Devs to adapt to this new machines, hell they are not even that new. They will be still x86 etc. Its just how PC games work for years, better Hardware, better and higher configs which result in better looking/running games.

 

[jmizzal]

They love because they can resale there games again as the 4k versions of the HD version lol

 

[RalchAC]

Right, but if you already own Uncharted 4 on PS4, then the gatekeepers are mandating that the update be free for you. You do not have to buy that software again. (at least, from what we've heard from EuroGamer on the leaked guidelines)

I expect some publishers reprinting some games ala GOTY edition that have a "4K enabled" sticker in the box hoping to drive some sales for Neo and Scorpio launches.

But the idea, unless I'm missing something, is having backwards compatibility forever like PC does. Yeah, there could be some compatibility issues down the road, like what happens with some PC games that need to be launched in W7 mode or don't work at all, but overall it should be a much nicer situation than what we have now.

Would it be possible for the Neo to support PS3 emulation?

 

[FLAguy954]

They'd talk about it if it made sense for them.

Lmao

Iunderstoodthatreference.gif

Well done.

 

[OléGunner]

We still need generation cut off points though.

In six years time it'd be absurd for all these publishers to be supporting 3-4 versions of each console. Future games will be gimped.

 

[Massa]

Ubisoft were basically clawing their eyes out waiting for a generational refresh before the PS4 and Xbox One, it's not surprising they think this is the bee's knees.

I do wonder if this will create more of a schism between AAA development and, well, not-AAA development, but we shall see.

Ubisoft's big new "built for next-gen game" (Unity) was a huge failure, in the same year that an up-port (Far Cry 4) was a huge success. Games have matured to the point where hardware generations are not really relevant anymore, you can make a great selling game without having to rebuild everything like people used to do with every new generation.

Ubisoft's also transitioned to games like The Division and Rainbow Six, where they want to keep players engaged for a long time after release. In those cases a hardware disruption is terrible news.

 

[DieH@rd]

They love because they can resale there games again as the 4k versions of the HD version lol

Neo/Scorpio exclusives are not allowed. Devs can release free patches for enhancing visuals of current games (no forced repeat purchase).

 

[Marty Chinn]

Neo/Scorpio exclusives are not allowed.

It doesn't have to be exclusive for them to do this though.

 

[thelastword]

Ahh, so real developers have come out and say they're stoked for the iterative machines. What ever happened to the majority of developers not being happy with NEO, I remember there was a big thread on that, whatever crevice did that info come from?........

 

[op_ivy]

"Each time there's a new machine with more memory then our creators are able to bring something new and fresh and innovate, and that's exciting for our fans who always want to be surprised. "

isnt this kind of counter to what the new systems will bring though?

 

[Mezoly]

Ahh, so real developers have come out and say they're stoked for the iterative machines. What ever happened to the majority of developers not being happy with NEO, I remember there was a big thread on that, whatever crevice did that info come from?........

Developers != publishers.

 

[Jawbreaker]

But what about the NX?! Has Rockstar said anything?

 

[Falchion]

It'll be fun to see how this all shakes out for sure.

 

[Nirolak]

Ahh, so real developers have come out and say they're stoked for the iterative machines. What ever happened to the majority of developers not being happy with NEO, I remember there was a big thread on that, whatever crevice did that info come from?........

Well, it's worth considering that with the indie revolution, there are more like 10,000 developers to interview instead of 100 these days.

If someone asks three indie devs about a system and gets a "We don't want to go through two more certifications" response, they can present that as "Developers all hate this".

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Here's a potential loophole, Game of the Year editions.It's a different SKU, a different bundle, and now with a remastered Neo/Scorpio version.

That would make it exclusive. Both sony and ms said there wont be any exclusives. SOO.... yeah.

 

[autoduelist]

Neo/Scorpio exclusives are not allowed. Devs can release free patches for enhancing visuals of current games (no forced repeat purchase).

At some point in our iterative console future, there will be those left behind.

Before, the 'left behind' was very clear and distinct -- a new console generation would be born, and it would usher in a new start of games.

These new machines are the first baby step into iterative, and sure, there are all sorts of rules in place to make us feel better -- we won't be left behind! But those rules are just there to let us warm up to the idea. At some point, we'll be left behind.

Even if it ends up being:

PS4
PS4.5 Neo (nobody left behind!)
PS5 (everybody left behind, like normal)

However, at some point, the clear intention is to try to keep the iterations going -- 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, 5.5, etc... and at some point, it will become more likely that old iterations will be left behind.

That is,

PS5
PS5.1 (nobody left behind)
PS5.2 (nobody left behind)
PS5.3 (PS5.0 left behind)
PS5.4 (PS5.1 left behind)
etc.

You can't be truly iterative w/o this becoming an eventuality, because otherwise in 20 years they'd still be forced to make stuff for the PS4.0.

 

[Nirolak]

The idea of selling a PS4 Neo/Xbox Scorpio remaster seems to miss the fundamental nature of how the video game business works in 2016.

Modern games work by selling you tons of microtransactions and/or DLC packs. The patch to upgrade a game to Neo/Scorpio spec will be free because it gets you to play the game again and dramatically raises the odds you will spend more money on microtransactions and/or DLC.

Older 360/PS3 games weren't all designed like this, so they sell you remasters to monetize those. That's not an issue with modern titles however.

 

[Marty Chinn]

That would make it exclusive. Both sony and ms said there wont be any exclusives. SOO.... yeah.

That's not an exclusive. Developers are allowed to enhance the Neo/Scorpio version of a game. The initial release would simply be a compatible Neo/Scorpio version with minimum effort and the core base PS4/Xbox One game. The GOTY edition is a completely new bundle/SKU so there they could say hey this release will still have the core PS4/Xbox One game plus DLC, etc while now the Neo/Scorpio version is enhanced even further. You'd still have the core system game available there but now a better Neo/Scorpio version is included. In order to get this version of the Neo/Scorpio game, you have to get the GOTY edition.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

And if/when they both bomb, they'll be saying the opposite so what they're saying now means nothing.

 

[Blanquito]

Here's a potential loophole, Game of the Year editions.It's a different SKU, a different bundle, and now with a remastered Neo/Scorpio version.

I expect some publishers reprinting some games ala GOTY edition that have a "4K enabled" sticker in the box hoping to drive some sales for Neo and Scorpio launches.

But the idea, unless I'm missing something, is having backwards compatibility forever like PC does. Yeah, there could be some compatibility issues down the road, like what happens with some PC games that need to be launched in W7 mode or don't work at all, but overall it should be a much nicer situation than what we have now.

Would it be possible for the Neo to support PS3 emulation?

That's not an exclusive. Developers are allowed to enhance the Neo/Scorpio version of a game. The initial release would simply be a compatible Neo/Scorpio version with minimum effort and the core base PS4/Xbox One game. The GOTY edition is a completely new bundle/SKU so there they could say hey this release will still have the core PS4/Xbox One game plus DLC, etc while now the Neo/Scorpio version is enhanced even further. You'd still have the core system game available there but now a better Neo/Scorpio version is included. In order to get this version of the Neo/Scorpio game, you have to get the GOTY edition.

See below.

The idea of selling a PS4 Neo/Xbox Scorpio remaster seems to miss the fundamental nature of how the video game business works in 2016.

Modern games work by selling you tons of microtransactions and/or DLC packs. The patch to upgrade a game to Neo/Scorpio spec will be free because it gets you to play the game again and dramatically raises the odds you will spend more money on microtransactions and/or DLC.

Older 360/PS3 games weren't all designed like this, so they sell you remasters to monetize those. That's not an issue with modern titles however.

 

[thelastword]

Well, it's worth considering that with the indie revolution, there are more like 10,000 developers to interview instead of 100 these days.

If someone asks three indie devs about a system and gets a "We don't want to go through two more certifications" response, they can present that as "Developers all hate this".

By that token more than 3 devs came into that thread and said they're stoked for NEO, so I guess that paints the opposite picture and balances it out. It's just that, we got no quotes from those devs who opposed, so in the end, those who favoured was always more substantial than those who opposed. I'm still looking forward to a quote list from Colin tbh...

 

[jmizzal]

I wonder why they can talk about Neo and not Nx (lol)

Didnt take-two and UBIsoft recently comment on NX?

 

[foxuzamaki]

Didnt take-two and UBIsoft recently comment on NX?

Yes, they did, we're quite positive too

 

[Papacheeks]

Every Frosbite game after BF4 launched without issues. I dont get why this comments still pop up.
On top of that the engine is heavily well optimized, sadly not so well made for the current Hardware when it comes to 60fps Frostbite games. But that, thank god will change with this Upgrades.
Especially on Xbox. From 720p/60fps to whatever they are aiming for pn Scorpio will be a massive difference.

And i dont think it will be that hard for Devs to adapt to this new machines, hell they are not even that new. They will be still x86 etc. Its just how PC games work for years, better Hardware, better and higher configs which result in better looking/running games.

My issue is if they stick with x86 and had waited to just do the next generation which it will be 5 years come 2018 they would still have complete compatability. Especially if they stuck with amd and went with a custom Zen CPU, Polaris/vega(or equivalent if they have another shrink) with HBM2.

If they stuck with AMD, and similar architecture im pretty confident the same results with having everything be compatible would work, and the leap would be that much bigger without having the possibility of having scorpio/neo developed games or huge discrepancy's between the versions.
Seeing the discrep between PS3/PS4/XB360/XBONE third party games is enough to worry the shit out of me for the where the development could lead.

Yes tech wizards like the frostbyte team love hardware because of their PC background, but these are consoles not PC's. Iterating so you can have legacy support sooner rather than later only causes more issues down the line in disparity between versions of games.
We've seen first party do extremely well on Playstation and Xbox. Maybe the answer isn't iterative hardware, but stagger releases so that games can run properly with all the changes, and optimizations that usually get integrated down the line as time goes on.

If you think having 3 platforms will cause to have a bunch of patches, wait till we add 2 more configs.
Let's listen to people from first party studios, smaller publisher's and see what the tune is than listening from CEO's, and head engineers who's world revolves around tech. They want more power so they can add more stuff to their games or engines when they can't seem to get them to run properly as it is on current consoles, when first party doesn't seem to have much of an issue.

Granted first party are only worrying for one config, but seeing as they make some sacrifices but not as many as third party do, there's so logic to how first party seem to be able to make use of whats out there instead of needing to brunt force their engine.

I mean maybe this is all me being archaic in my thinking? I don't know, I just look at whats out there, what we've been getting for games, and see no issue if games IQ wise come out at current quality for the next 2 years then release/announce new console.

To me the pro's don't outweight the con's for every developer big or small.

 

[Darryl M R]

#ColinWasWrong

 

[Papacheeks]

#ColinWasWrong

We'll see.

 

[On Demand]

The argument for BC being the reason why this is good is dumb. Since consoles now use x86 hardware you can keep the 5 year generation cycle and achieve the same thing. They'll be no reset.

 

[Oneself]

They wouldn't tell us otherwise even if they weren't happy about this anyways.

 

[Calm Mind]

Until they don't. Which will be in 3 years time.

 

[formasymphonic]

The sentiment seems to be more

"New hardware (all x86 etc) without having to handle new architectural platform costs is great"

Rather than

"PS4K & Scorpio new consoles are great"

From what I am seeing though.

 

[Papacheeks]

The argument for BC being the reason why this is good is dumb. Since consoles now use x86 hardware you can keep the 5 year generation cycle and achieve the same thing. They'll be no reset.

Yea, it's a garbage argument, especially when talking x86 and the likes.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Ugh...just give a clear cut off point for when hardware is supported by developers. constant forwards compatibility is meaningless if your just holding back the newer hardware's capability for the inferior hardware. We already get that enough with cross gen projects and hold over cross generation technology.

If there's no start and stop to generations, eventually your going to hit a wall for what you can do, regardless of how scalable your software technology is, especially if your mandating feature and game parity between the units.

All of this community sharing could be solved just by basic full tier BC to begin with, which is already solved by going x86. This "iterative approach" sours me the more i hear about it

 

[Papacheeks]

Ugh...just give a clear cut off point for when hardware is supported by developers. constant forwards compatibility is meaningless if your just holding back the newer hardware's capability for the inferior hardware. We already get that enough with cross gen projects and hold over cross generation technology.

If there's no start and stop to generations, eventually your going to hit a wall for what you can do, regardless of how scalable your software technology is, especially if your mandating feature and game parity between the units.

All of this community sharing could be solved just by basic full tier BC to begin with, which is already solved by going x86. This "iterative approach" sours me the more i hear about it

Your not alone.

I will say this though it looks like Andrew House is kind of sharing their thought process on how to use this Neo/Scorpio mid gen upgrade correctly without getting rid of generational cycles.

 

[Kastrioti]

Of course they do, it'll allow them and other major publishers to sell upgraded games on Scorpio or Neo that they wouldn't be able to if it was just regular Xbox One or PS4.

I don't think this is bad btw. But we saw the transition of GTAV from Xbox 360 to Xbox One sell a ton on both platforms. GTAV was the perfect example for publishers on upgrading the game (via first person mode etc.)

Last gen dragged on way to long and that's why we're seeing the game industry head the way of smartphones which is actually good for the industry, IMO.

 

[Fredrik]

That's not an exclusive. Developers are allowed to enhance the Neo/Scorpio version of a game. The initial release would simply be a compatible Neo/Scorpio version with minimum effort and the core base PS4/Xbox One game. The GOTY edition is a completely new bundle/SKU so there they could say hey this release will still have the core PS4/Xbox One game plus DLC, etc while now the Neo/Scorpio version is enhanced even further. You'd still have the core system game available there but now a better Neo/Scorpio version is included. In order to get this version of the Neo/Scorpio game, you have to get the GOTY edition.

So it'll be like cross-gen releases? Two independent releases, like Tomb Raider 2013 and Tomb Raider Definitive Edition, or The Last of Us and The Last of Us Remastered?
That doesn't sound anything like Sony's plan. Wasn't the whole idea that there would only be one release and if you buy a Neo later on you won't have to repurchase the games, just use the same disc and you'll instantly see the benefits of having better hardware.

I'm thinking that the games will come with a graphics settings menu, but instead of "Medium" and "Ultra" we'll see the options "PS4" and "Neo".

 

[Inuhanyou]

Your not alone.

I will say this though it looks like Andrew House is kind of sharing their thought process on how to use this Neo/Scorpio mid gen upgrade correctly without getting rid of generational cycles.

Yeah, i referenced that interview in the NEO 480x thread a day or so ago just to say that Sony still had the concept of generations in mind, and got swamped by "constant iterative units every year with no baseline IS THE FUTURE"

Seriously, just cause MS does something doesn't mean everyone else follows.

 

[kobu]

Yep dudes complaining about remasters on the first page when we pretty much already know those won't be happening.

 

[RalchAC]

See below.

What I wanted to say is that there would be reprints, not enhanced ports.

A reprint is bringing newly manufactured copies of the same game to retailers. Something like the Platinum / Best Hits editions, but for old games that have been patched for free.

 

[Papacheeks]

Yeah, i referenced that interview in the NEO 480x thread a day or so ago just to say that Sony still had the concept of generations in mind, and got swamped by "constant iterative units every year with no baseline IS THE FUTURE"

Seriously, just cause MS does something doesn't mean everyone else follows.

Yea, I hear you. Most people on gaf who love new stuff, or new idea's for where the industry could go always don't use logic. They let a couple of indie developers set the narrative and appose anyone who isn't pro iterative console.

Then when shits hits the fan in an "extreme" scenario, they will be the first ones to blame the companies and not themselves for supporting such practices.

If they go the route with iterations every couple years, it's going to hurt somewhere in the console line. If this is primarily a stop gap for just 4k/HDR/VR and still retains big leaps in next generational hardware that stays similar in architecture then I think there's nothing really to worry about.

NEO is specifically IMHO for VR games that are really taxing like I guess RE7 in VR does not run well according to some. ANd seeing people like Kenji Inafune say very bluntly that current consoles meaning both Sony/Microsoft are not going to cut it for advanced VR titles:

“They announced a very attractive piece of hardware in the sense that there are going to be consumers who really want the 4K or who really want the VR, and with the current generation of hardware that’s not possible. They really created something that everyone can approach and find different tiers of engagement that each user wants to have with each piece of media. So it’s really attractive piece of hardware and I think it’s good that they're exploring that in different avenues and different ways to deliver content to consumers.”

Sea of Thieves developer didn't even know about it officially.

“I was obviously in the briefing on Monday, [but] I literally had to run and leave as soon as our section finished because I had an interview 20 minutes later, so I didn’t even get to see the Scorpio part of the presentation, so I’m a little in the dark on the technical details. We're not really thinking or talking about Scorpio for us now. We’re focused on our next goal which is getting [Sea of Thieves] into a closed beta.”

There's more at the link even quoting Cliffy B who doesn't understand the move, and ex developer from 3D realms as well.

So not everyone is so chipper about this, and seeing third party big wig ceo's ecstatic about it is concerning.

 

[Marty Chinn]

See below.

That doesn't change anything I've said. The thing is, currently there's no real financial incentive to put a ton of effort into the enhanced port. So I think we're going to see a lot of Neo/Scorpio games get by with just the bare minimum. With GOTY editions, that now suddenly opens the door for a new SKU where they can upsell the effort for an enhanced version. There now is a financial incentive, ie how remasters work currently.

So it'll be like cross-gen releases? Two independent releases, like Tomb Raider 2013 and Tomb Raider Definitive Edition, or The Last of Us and The Last of Us Remastered?
That doesn't sound anything like Sony's plan. Wasn't the whole idea that there would only be one release and if you buy a Neo later on you won't have to repurchase the games, just use the same disc and you'll instantly see the benefits of having better hardware.

I'm thinking that the games will come with a graphics settings menu, but instead of "Medium" and "Ultra" we'll see the options "PS4" and "Neo".

Yes, that's what the plan was, but this is a loop hole to get around that idea. We already get rereleases like GOTY editions where things are bundled with DLC and all the patches. They typically are to entice an increase in sales plus at a lower price point. Doing it through this method would be a way to entice people to rebuy an enhanced Neo/Scorpio version that gets around the requirement that the PS4 and Neo version are on the same disc since now it's technically a whole new releases and not the same exact game as before.

 

[Birgitte2004]

Yep dudes complaining about remasters on the first page when we pretty much already know those won't be happening.

If EA went to Sony and said "Hey, we are going MS exclusive unless you let us make Neo-only games", do you really think Sony would hardline it?

I don't know that EA will do that, but I find this ultra-belief that what's been said already is guaranteed to be true for all time naïve at best.

 

[charlequin]

If EA went to Sony and said "Hey, we are going MS exclusive unless you let us make Neo-only games", do you really think Sony would hardline it?

why on earth would ea do that

 

[Trup1aya]

Of course publishers love it.

New consoles = New people buying consoles = New potential customers to buy their games

This is not it at all...
They like it because there is less risk at the start of each new generation when installed bases are tiny.

Now they can ship one gane and have it reach audiences who upgraded as well as those who didn't

 

[Leyasu]

Nice to hear that some of the devs are happy

 

[LukasTaves]

I think it's a much needed move that will benefit everyone, even if some developers have a little rough time adjusting (though I think most of the industry is already ready for that).

If anything because it gives them a regular user base to sell games, instead of the roller coaster that currently it a generational cycle, which is great for big publishers and small devs, both supporting new releases of a known IP, or risking on a new one, or even having an audience for a game that found itself taking much longer than anticipated to release.