I really dont understand "frustration" in Dark Souls where 80-90% of dying are player fault.
And after that, if you continue to die in a single place, change game or do something else and then return.
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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
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I really dont understand "frustration" in Dark Souls where 80-90% of dying are player fault.
And after that, if you continue to die in a single place, change game or do something else and then return.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
You wouldn't because the difficulty is a part of the game. What you're asking for is a pretty audiovisual experience that only looks like Dark Souls.
To say that difficulty level isn't a key part of a game is to devalue games by minimizing the importance of their mechanical portion.
Misterinenja
Member
Of course Souls games are hard. That's how they are. All the way up to the audiovisual design and storytelling.
It's just usually overstated so much that new players are too scared to actually try to tackle them in a neutral state of mind. You'll hit walls and die a lot. That's intentional. It's the series reputation of difficulty hyperbole that is seemingly creating some mental barrier which makes the player blame the game design where in truth the problem is in players head.
In truth the games are no way impossible for most gamers to beat. They require a lot of patience but offer satisfying gameplay and unmatched atmosphere.
I sincerely hope that most of these players who have quit Dark Souls after couple of hours and are vocal about making the game "easier" would try to go back and enjoy the game.
Everybody remembers their first trip to the Depths and Blighttown. And that moment after all the desperation and agony when you see the sunlight again. That's the feeling that makes these games classics. It's the kind of satisfaction I can't get from any other game. Not from Ninja Gaiden or Elder Scrolls. God don't take that away from the fans.
Praise the fucking Sun indeed.
It's just usually overstated so much that new players are too scared to actually try to tackle them in a neutral state of mind. You'll hit walls and die a lot. That's intentional. It's the series reputation of difficulty hyperbole that is seemingly creating some mental barrier which makes the player blame the game design where in truth the problem is in players head.
In truth the games are no way impossible for most gamers to beat. They require a lot of patience but offer satisfying gameplay and unmatched atmosphere.
I sincerely hope that most of these players who have quit Dark Souls after couple of hours and are vocal about making the game "easier" would try to go back and enjoy the game.
Everybody remembers their first trip to the Depths and Blighttown. And that moment after all the desperation and agony when you see the sunlight again. That's the feeling that makes these games classics. It's the kind of satisfaction I can't get from any other game. Not from Ninja Gaiden or Elder Scrolls. God don't take that away from the fans.
Praise the fucking Sun indeed.
There is more to the game than just challenge, but that's the thing: it's a core aspect that strengthens the game on a whole. Sense of satisfaction from conquering a challenge, a thrill in pushing forward and seeing new areas while being weary about new threats, or coming back when you're much stronger and trouncing the shit out of everything. You'd get some of it with a nerfed difficulty, but not fully, and if they have to compromise multiplayer for it then it's screwing over everyone potentially.
That was an... unfortunate analogy above, but a better one would probably be like pursuing a hobby or working out (albeit not AS rewarding, yet much less time consuming normally). You work at it, push yourself, get better, and receive a sense of satisfaction from accomplishing new goals. What it sounds like he wants is more like... well, like reading a book or watching a TV show/movie, which for some games IS fine, even an arguable fault if they fail to include easier difficulties who just want to enjoy the narrative (ME3 giving an option to let choices be made automatically bugged me FAR more than "Narrative difficulty", it's actually a similar problem as to this Dark Souls argument here albeit in reverse), but Dark Souls isn't really one of those games. You'd probably get the same enjoyment out of story just by reading a ripped compilation of item descriptions and watching Youtube videos compiling all of the dialogue.
I don't think it's really TOO hard if you just want to do a single playthrough to see things: play carefully, check tips online, and summon plenty of help for the boss battles. It's in NG+ when it can potentially reach the point of being too damn infuriating, and if all you wanted to do was get through and beat the game then there's not much point to being upset, start a new character or do something else at that point.
That was an... unfortunate analogy above, but a better one would probably be like pursuing a hobby or working out (albeit not AS rewarding, yet much less time consuming normally). You work at it, push yourself, get better, and receive a sense of satisfaction from accomplishing new goals. What it sounds like he wants is more like... well, like reading a book or watching a TV show/movie, which for some games IS fine, even an arguable fault if they fail to include easier difficulties who just want to enjoy the narrative (ME3 giving an option to let choices be made automatically bugged me FAR more than "Narrative difficulty", it's actually a similar problem as to this Dark Souls argument here albeit in reverse), but Dark Souls isn't really one of those games. You'd probably get the same enjoyment out of story just by reading a ripped compilation of item descriptions and watching Youtube videos compiling all of the dialogue.
I don't think it's really TOO hard if you just want to do a single playthrough to see things: play carefully, check tips online, and summon plenty of help for the boss battles. It's in NG+ when it can potentially reach the point of being too damn infuriating, and if all you wanted to do was get through and beat the game then there's not much point to being upset, start a new character or do something else at that point.
Thanks for the clarification, so the From Tomohiro Shibuya never had been involved in Monster Hunter at all as wrongly reported at many places. Shows once again how completely worthless credits without Kanjis are (Mobygames...).
Red Liquorice
Member
There are things in Dark Souls right from the start that can make your experience easier. Of course it takes a bit of exploring, some risk and trial and error for your first time playthrough to reap the rewards.
What some people are saying is that they don't want to do anything for themselves in the game. They want to be pointed from A to B and have everything explained so there are no pitstops or twists.
Take the dragon on the bridge for example. How many people died going across the bridge for the first time - probably almost everyone. Now there are scorchmarks on the bridge, it also looks ominous, a wide open space, you already know there is a dragon around somewhere since it stopped you in your tracks earlier in the game. Now I don't know many people that looked at the scorchmarks on their first playthrough and put it together that it was a trap, I certainly didn't - but dying there is a lesson for the player to take note of the environment. So the next time you walk in to a new area, you might take stock of what is going on around too see if there's a clue as to what might be about to pounce out at you - because there's more often than not a big clue.
In Souls, death is never the end - the tagline is PREPARE TO DIE for god's sake. You want an easy mode so you don't die, in a game where dying is part of the experience!
What some people are saying is that they don't want to do anything for themselves in the game. They want to be pointed from A to B and have everything explained so there are no pitstops or twists.
Take the dragon on the bridge for example. How many people died going across the bridge for the first time - probably almost everyone. Now there are scorchmarks on the bridge, it also looks ominous, a wide open space, you already know there is a dragon around somewhere since it stopped you in your tracks earlier in the game. Now I don't know many people that looked at the scorchmarks on their first playthrough and put it together that it was a trap, I certainly didn't - but dying there is a lesson for the player to take note of the environment. So the next time you walk in to a new area, you might take stock of what is going on around too see if there's a clue as to what might be about to pounce out at you - because there's more often than not a big clue.
In Souls, death is never the end - the tagline is PREPARE TO DIE for god's sake. You want an easy mode so you don't die, in a game where dying is part of the experience!
ii Stryker
Banned
difficulty is entirely subjective. What may be difficult you may be really easy for me and vice versa and when it come to videogames neither is mutually exclusive. both types of players should be able to enjoy your game.
Okay, how about this: The game could be made more accessible by making the main storyline a bit shorter, easier to follow, and with a fairly gradual difficulty curve. Beyond that, an even larger portion of the game's interesting, difficult content would be locked up in side-paths compared to Dark Souls. Think of having the Undead Burg, Depths, Blighttown, Sen's Fortress, and Anor Londo strung together in a more or less straight line, with every other zone in the game wrapped around them like a mass of tangled Christmas tree lights. There would be plenty of criss-crossing routes that take the player between the more difficult areas, but it would always be relatively easy to get back onto the main path. The player would still need to beat a significant portion of that optional content to fully understand the story and get the coolest items and spells.
I guess what I'm picturing is a progression that's a bit like a continuous version of Star Fox 64 that allows the player to backtrack if they want.
I guess what I'm picturing is a progression that's a bit like a continuous version of Star Fox 64 that allows the player to backtrack if they want.
Heh, @ bolded, speak for yourself hombre. Dark Souls was not my first Souls game. No way I was falling for that!
Instead, I was burned alive when I came back up the staircase for the second time to kill those guards for some quick souls; this game knows how to troll
can't begin to tell you how many times this game has made me feel like Wile E Coyote
Red Liquorice
Member
I was speaking for myself, but you know a large percentage of people didn't make it across their first time without getting hit even if it didn't kill them straight out, even if they thought it looked like a trap - as did I.
Got burnt to a crisp going up and down the stairs more times than I care to remember too, mainly trolling invaders and paying for it!
I think all that is needed is making a few things about the core mechanics less obtuse.
Hanging out in the DS OT's, almost every new player that comes in and asks what humanity does, what bonfires do, what the covenants do etc, etc. Giving clear instructions to the player as to what the core, basics of the game are isn't giving an easy mode. If this is what they mean by direct, straightforward and understandable (and I think it is) then I welcome it.
Pretty much. There's a certain oldschool novelty in the lack of an explicit statement that kindling a bonfire makes it restore 5 more flask charges and having the game say "Cannot kindle further without the secret rite." when you try to do it at a bonfire that's already been kindled once, but it's just not great design. The game shouldn't put you through painful, unskippable explanations of this stuff like recent Zelda games, but the information should be there for players who want it. Having it available doesn't detract from the experience of someone who wants to puzzle it out themselves.
I want more fangly-beasts like the Chaos Eaters, Pisacas, and Gaping Dragon that look like they leaped from the pages of an old D&D Monster Manual.
Arjen
Member
Man, after the first mimic i attacked every chest before opening them.
Then when i thought i was safe because i didn't see one i a while, BAM.
I felt so stupid.
If difficulty is subjective then who's to say an easy mode is enough? I suppose we need an "Super Easy" mode as an easy mode for Dark Souls would likely still provide to be more difficult than most current games on normal, and then perhaps a "one-hit-kills-all mode" to be sure we can appeal to everyone that just wants to "experience" the game.
Cutting down the enemies health doesn't really make for an easy game, it makes for the combat portion of the game easier, but a good portion of players would still be lost in the game and would not be able to enjoy the game without being told where to go. The issues each player has with the game varies, creating an easy mode so that all can enjoy the game is not trivial and often means having to sacrifice the design of your game as a whole.
This not to mention that creating an easy mode always requires changing resources from creating the main experience to creating the aditional modes, or the balancing/segegration issues that come with having several difficulty modes in a multiplayer game.
Not every game needs to be created so that everyone can enjoy it.
At that point you're sacrificing the entire game design for the sake of accessibility. That would be a very different type of experience from Dark Souls.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Why does everyone have to enjoy every game? There are plenty of games out there for you. Go play them. If every game was made for you, games would be very boring.
Well, we can't blame Mobygames entirely for this, since they don't have credits for any of the ACE games, as they were never released outside of Japan.
Oh wow I cracked up so hard reading that sequence.
What a great way to start my day!
That's the problem. Games are starting to cater purely towards the lowest common denominator.
Even formerly hardcore games like the elder scrolls streamline their systems and game design into extreme simplicity.
Its a slippery slope argument, but I'm very worried about the future of gaming.
At least we still have developers like from, rocket, cd project red, and indies to keep producing great games.
In my opinion, if you made a game for everyone, you've made a game for no one.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Castor Krieg
Banned
This was always going to be the end result. I'm pretty sure the demand came from Scamco. Gonna milk that IP.
flyinpiranha
Member
I loved Demon's Souls ... really, really did. Got the very lost boss and I'll be damned if I didn't lose my saved game and just couldn't go through all that again ... especially after soul farming and finding decent gear.
I was so excited for Dark Souls when I got it ... and just couldn't get into it. I think it was the lack of direction and/or even what the hell I was supposed to do right off the bat that annoyed me. I will probably give the PC version a try sometime early next year when there's nothing to play but honestly, as long as they don't change the difficulty (or at least give us the option of 'normal DS play') I have no problem with them making it more 'understandable'.
That said, I also understand why people DON'T want it change and my request is purely selfish.
I was so excited for Dark Souls when I got it ... and just couldn't get into it. I think it was the lack of direction and/or even what the hell I was supposed to do right off the bat that annoyed me. I will probably give the PC version a try sometime early next year when there's nothing to play but honestly, as long as they don't change the difficulty (or at least give us the option of 'normal DS play') I have no problem with them making it more 'understandable'.
That said, I also understand why people DON'T want it change and my request is purely selfish.
One person in the intro tasks you with ringing the two bells. As soon as you reach the mainland, a second person tells you exactly where the two bells are located. I understand that the game is vague with a lot of things, but a lack of direction in the beginning shouldn't be considered one of them, unless you completely ignored the NPCs altogether.
You have to try playing it again, its my favourite game probaly ever made, just remember when you get to firelink shrine, go to the right side of the shrine and work your way up the side, I do think it can be quite unclear where to start playing the game from once you reach firelink shrine.
Misterinenja
Member
Total opposite for me. Openness and mystery around the world was the thing that drew me in right away. Proceeding from bonfire to bonfire and in occasion finding myself totally lost in WAIT ARE THOSE LIGHTING BREATHING DRAGONS?!
YOU DIED
The age old tradition of talking to NPCs multiple times comes into play here, quite a few people don't bother with poor old crestfallen, who throughout the game in multiple instances, will give you very important information in regards to where to go (and he does specifically tell you where to go at the start if you keep talking to him, not just the dialog about the bells), that you should be upgrading your gear, and who knows what else.
Game is also less overwhelming when each area connects to another.
Phonomezer
Banned
Hot.
Ah true HD trailer there. Looks gorgeous.
Weltall Zero
Member
Well, I'd say completing the core game of SMB, or even unlocking all dark worlds, is pretty much ont he same level as completing Dark Souls. If you're adding in extra stuff like Cotton Alley, then yeah, that's a completely different ball game. But the core games are about equal. If you see a massive difference either way, it simply means that your abilities at one of those genres are higher.
I also don't get the discussion that Dark Souls is not a hard game; and yes, there HAVE been people in this thread saying it isn't a hard game, no qualifiers, over and over. Without fail, all these people have mentioned there are lots of harder games and almost every single time, they fail to mention which. Leaving out indie games (which have brought us such gems as I Wanna Be The Guy), what retail games are harder than Dark Souls? Every one of us knows at least a couple hundred retail games this gen; if you can't name at least ten retail games harder than Dark Souls (core game, default difficulty), then you can't even argue that it's not in the top 5% regarding difficulty.
Misterinenja
Member
Neogaf Dark Souls OT(s) were a blast around launch.
That's where people got some help and the whole game was still a mystery for players to unfold.
That's where people got some help and the whole game was still a mystery for players to unfold.
I felt the same. But after a while, the game started making sense... until I got stuck, one of the lowest moments of my "gaming career".
I think what people usually mean with those comments is that Dark Souls doesn't challenge your reflexes on the level of Devil May Cry at high difficulty levels, or your strategic thinking on the level of a 4X game. Dark Souls mostly challenges your patience, precision, and short-term planning, but I agree that the overall difficulty is very high among recently released games.
Charrettizard
Member
How come more people aren't talking about how good this looks? The first twenty seconds or so had me convinced that it was live action.
Because it's just a CG trailer, likely outsourced. Also, people are too busy fretting over how it looked too much like Skyrim or Dragon Age.
Why should everyone be able to enjoy a game? At some point a game just might not be for you, and that's alright. No game can appeal to everyone, and the ones that try usually end up becoming dog shit. Ultimately there are plenty of games out there that already are what you are looking for, but there are few, if any, that do what the Souls games do. Why fuck up something unique to appeal to a group of people that could as easily just go get what they want somewhere else?
flyinpiranha
Member
Looks like I'll have to give the PC one a shot for sure. It's been a while and my gaming memories are fuzzy so I don't really remember much about the beginning, just the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and I kind of remember some rolling skeletons sucking the fun out of my adventure.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
The whole should be enjoyable to everyone is truthfully the most insane thing Ive heard in a while.
Thats like changing the rules for a particular sport just because some dont "enjoy" it.
Thats like changing the rules for a particular sport just because some dont "enjoy" it.
Are you saying soccer wouldn't be a better sport if the rules allowed players who didn't enjoy running to use Segways?
I played first on the PC version and I went in blind.
There are basically only 3 ways to go. The catacombs, undead burgh, or the ruins. It can be argued that the valley of drakes is a possibility but that would be tough to find for a new player, possible but not likely.
I actually tried to go to the catacombs but the skeletons are almost impossible to kill for a new player. Trying to go into the ruins have ghosts which you can't damage blocking your path. You are naturally funneled into the undead burgh. Its really quite genius.
This is another thing i dont understand, the skeletons frustration.
People go to the cemitery, die many time and shouting "This game is so frustrating bla bla" when there is another route.
The true is people are became a brainless zombie where the game have to tell them where to and what to do
Meh no Skyrim or DA trailer will have the main guy with a back full of arrows ready to collapse, then get burned to a crisp in the next scene. I thought the trailer was brilliantly directed.
We got to see a lot sexy and mystic environments in the first half, with the guy slowly and lonely exploring them..which shows it will be your typical Souls game. Then in the second half they show the enemies/dragons are out to execute you and you will fall.
The part in the middle with the girl and electric guitars is something that is new to the Souls games and gives it that Hollywood'ish hype but that doesn't have to imply any negative aspect at all as long as they respect the values that made the older two games great.
We got to see a lot sexy and mystic environments in the first half, with the guy slowly and lonely exploring them..which shows it will be your typical Souls game. Then in the second half they show the enemies/dragons are out to execute you and you will fall.
The part in the middle with the girl and electric guitars is something that is new to the Souls games and gives it that Hollywood'ish hype but that doesn't have to imply any negative aspect at all as long as they respect the values that made the older two games great.
Yeah pretty much. Everytime I hear people say they quit because of the skeletons, I feel sorry for them because they can no longer play games without quest markers on radars. This is what will happen if you grew up playing games this generation though.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Dev team "beta testing" new concepts to make Dark Souls 2 more accessible to everyone.
No longer will you have the difficulty of having to manage your stamina.
Fights are fast and simple with the point and poke method! No needing to worry about confusing things like blocking, parrying or even attacking for that matter!
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Agreed. Just explain the basics of those sorts of mechanics off the bat and that would be a huge step. Now, they could have more advanced nuances to those mechanics that they can keep secret or unexplained and left for the player to uncover but I don't think the game would be broken by simply letting the player know what the bonfires do or what the point of humanity is.