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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
More in the 133GB/s range :p


Already beaten, but yes -> It's 172GB/s

Probably more like 150Gb/s vs 160Gb/s. :D


Isn't this largely misleading? The real world bandwidth usage is dependant on how many CUs are reading/writing data and how much. It would vary from application to application, game to game. No?

Yeah. I don't believe those Sony numbers either. Not in game. Not real world. Not sustained.
 

foxbeldin

Member
Isn't this largely misleading? The real world bandwidth usage is dependant on how many CUs are reading/writing data and how much. It would vary from application to application, game to game. No?

That's why they are considered real world "peak" bandwith.

Probably more like 150Gb/s vs 160Gb/s. :D

The 133Gb/s number comes from MS themselves, in the Eurogamer article.
"in real-life scenarios it's believed that 133GB/s throughput has been achieved with alpha transparency blending operations (FP16 x4)."
That's a very limited scenario but that was before the upclock.
 
Absolutely, and this is what I've been seeing as a UK resident when weighing up these two consoles. In terms of power, the first party stable, the 'ease of use' for third parties and the courting en mass of indies (and thus smaller, more unique games) the PS4 is way out in the lead.

TV integration is not a big deal for me personally, when I watch TV it is because I want to watch something, having notifications and invites popping up would be a nuisance to me. Kinect holds no interest either, for games or UI navigation. So long as the PS4 has iPlayer I'm happy.

Another benefit of PS4 to me is the system level support of Remote Play, I already own a Vita and this past week of playing GTAV and juggling that with the girlfriend's soap operas has been a hassle.

For me its a complete one-sided shift to the PS4 from someone who liked having multiple platforms. I was looking to get an Xbox One down the line after a price drop, like I did with the 360, but seeing how useless it is without a gold sub I doubt I'd bother at all.

My only question now is what were Microsoft thinking?

Get out of my head :) 100% agree with this.

My Girlfriend gets annoyed when the gamertags pop up when watching netfix's, I can only imagine what she will be like with Xbox One notifications. As you say as long as my PS4 offers BBC iplayer and Netflix I will be happy.

The NFL deal outside America only helps to highlight the fact the Xbox One is American focused.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
Isn't this largely misleading? The real world bandwidth usage is dependant on how many CUs are reading/writing data and how much. It would vary from application to application, game to game. No?

I would assume so. But we got from what I remember an official MS source saying they get around 140 with the MS in real world tests (so I'm assuming tests to get bandwidths real world but not game environments necessarily) and then there was the ps4 dev saying 172 which sounds amazing but 172/176 is obnoxiously high .... i dont know if he meant just bandwidth tests without game conditions or ingame ... in either case its really high effeciency to the extent i almost feel they misquoted 172 instead of 176 ... but again im no expert on this aspect....

Although im sure there is larger drop off from theoretical for xbox1 than there is for ps4. esram and dealing with that should to lead to a larger dropoff than a uniform ddr5 . But again on this im being very speculative. Not my field so cant really comment with any authority on this aspect.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
That's why they are considered real world "peak" bandwith.



The 133Gb/s number comes from MS themselves, in the Eurogamer article.
"in real-life scenarios it's believed that 133GB/s throughput has been achieved with alpha transparency blending operations (FP16 x4)."
That's a very limited scenario but that was before the upclock.

Thanks. So that's not real game performance either.
 
Probably more like 150Gb/s vs 160Gb/s. :D




Yeah. I don't believe those Sony numbers either. Not in game. Not real world. Not sustained.

Its a theoretical max. It serves to let you know that you will never be able to move more than "X" amount of data at one time. I don't get what you are implying. That a game won't use that peak bandwidth at every second or?
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Its a theoretical max. It serves to let you know that you will never be able to move more than "X" amount of data at one time. I don't get what you are implying. That a game won't use that peak bandwidth at every second or?

I'm saying that a game is a mix of reads and writes and waiting around a bit whilst a GPU or GPU completes a task before completing more reads and writes.

I'm just wondering how close in a real world gaming example is the bandwidth going to be of Xbox One and PS4 and how it will affect the performance if each device.
 

cripterion

Member
Can you share the link?

I don't think at this point anyone has seen any multi platform titles for Xbox One and PS4 to compare them. We've seen a fair bit of PS4 titles. But worryingly, no Xbox One stuff at all. No doubt the devs are in severe crunch time trying to wring out the last bit of performance out of Xbox One so that the multi platform titles will look at least similar to each other.

http://www.gameblog.fr/news/38393-mgs-ground-zeroes-ps4-et-xbox-one-deux-presentations-legerem

A host of french gaming websites were reporting both versions were present at the floor. Would be funny indeed if it's running on a pc.
Here it says there were no differences technically but there were different gameplay sections during the demos.
 
So anyone talking about the differences between MGS 5 for PS4 and Xbox one? I read on a french website that both versions looked technically the same.

Kojima has already mentioned that MGS V was originally designed with the current generation in mind and that it may not technically be the best looking next-gen title ... maybe it's not pushing the consoles to the limit?
 

Ishan

Junior Member

so it does states it was on xbox1 and ps4 but and forgive me my french is rusty the article doesnt explicitly state that they were for sure on the console dev kit. Seemed like on the xb1 or ps4 sections of the showfloor/presentations. I know some websites make it a point to say running on devkits for sure. Some dont ... Do you know if the site you linked to does? .... Dunno what to make of it for sure :)
 

cripterion

Member
Kojima has already mentioned that MGS V was originally designed with the current generation in mind and that it may not technically be the best looking next-gen title ... maybe it's not pushing the consoles to the limit?

Yup I guess you're right. He also said he was aiming for 1080P and 60FPS on next gen consoles so that should be enough, and hopefully no downgrading to 900P at the last minute :p
 
Is GPGPU really suitable for AI?
Depends of the AI algorithm. For example some games do a low resolution/quality render from the point of view of the AI to judge if they can see the opponent. Not everything that can be done to improve the AI is bad for GPGPU. Also Crowd AI can be similar to physics.
 

Donny

Member
IMG_0201.jpg


Light Sabers!
Hahaha makes so much sense!!!!
 
Is it true ? I think I red that it was 140-150 GB/s (esram)+ roughly 55 GB/s for DDR 3 giving a total of 200 GB/s

100+ GB/s ESRAM, going up to 200 GB/s in some cases (common scenario is 133GB/s)+55GB for DDR3.

With a 80-20 scenario (80% ESRAM + 20% DDR3) you get: 106.4 + 11 = 117.4 GB/s versus 150 GB/s
 
Depends of the AI algorithm. For example some games do a low resolution/quality render from the point of view of the AI to judge if they can see the opponent. Not everything that can be done to improve the AI is bad for GPGPU. Also Crowd AI can be similar to physics.

Yes, so being able to 10k raycasts (I'm just saying something wild) per frame to allow the AI to look at the environment in far more detail does actually make some sense, especially as environments become more complex and interactive. Same for being able to occlude and echo sounds, collisions and so on.

Importantly I think we'll see some real advances made where the CPU and GPU parse an algorithm together - previously on traditional PCs this would not be efficient because of the huge latency between the two systems and having to have all data duplicated. But for these hybrid CPU/GPU systems, programmers should be able to write new algorithms that combine the strengths of both.
 

foxbeldin

Member
100+ GB/s ESRAM, going up to 200 GB/s in some cases (common scenario is 133GB/s)+55GB for DDR3.

With a 80-20 scenario (80% ESRAM + 20% DDR3) you get: 106.4 + 11 = 117.4 GB/s versus 150 GB/s

In no case it goes up to 200GB/s. Best case scenario (not common at all, very limited case) is 133GB/s (or 140 with the upclock if you consider it scales proportionally).
And you don't add bandwidth.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Has this been confirmed? Last I heard there was 4.5GB + 512MB Flexi talks... Regardless, I can see where the optimisation comes into play on the Xbox to continually fill and purge that 32MB.
Even 4.5 + 512mb isn't confirmed too. So why you ask for confirmation. Lol
 

Foghorn Leghorn

Unconfirmed Member
Has this been confirmed? Last I heard there was 4.5GB + 512MB Flexi talks... Regardless, I can see where the optimisation comes into play on the Xbox to continually fill and purge that 32MB.

Yes, by a couple of devs awhile ago. It's 5.5 plus .5 flex for a total of 6. Someone reposted about the quotes twenty pages ago in this thread or the one where senjutsusage got banned.
 

mjswooosh

Banned
Ahem I just wanted to out forward the point that flexibility is an inherent advantage when it comes to any coding technique . Speaking from experience if I'm restricted to say 1 billion arithmetic operations and a gb of memory vs 1.1 billion arithmetic operations and half a gb of memory generally the first works out better . It is an opinion yes but also from experience with algorithms one works better than the other because you can be more creative with approaches .... That's the point I was making . I also went to explain the kinect is an advantage as is ms's approach with TV os tech . Just giving the view of someone who has a good experience with algorithms . Both approaches have advantages but normally extra flexibility leads to more creative algorithmic approaches and hence better results . Just graphically speaking

I don't see how Kinect or MS's TV approach can truly be considered an advantage at this point from either a technical or sales perspective. I suppose only time will tell. But, for Kinect we can use history as our guide: Kinect 1.0 games are largely simplistic, bargain-bin time-killers at best and absolute garbage at worst. The most use my Kinect 1.0 gets is when my girlfriend plays Fruit Ninja on it once a week if she's bored of playing her iPad4. I've seen absolutely nothing to change my view or make me think Kinect 2.0 games will fare much better.

As for the TV integration tech........ like millions of others in the Xbox target demo I already have a voice activated Smart TV, 3 ROKUs in different rooms, a Yamaha receiver with pass-thru, a Logitech One universal remote tying everything together, etc.... In other words, although the Xbox One's remote voice-command/integration is a "neato" feature, it's definitely not something that is a "must have" feature that is going to make me run out and purchase a $500 console.

Bottom line neither feature is a real bullet point advantage when your machine is verified 40-50% less powerful graphically and is $100 more expensive than your primary competitor. The problem MS has right now is they want to turn the Xbox into a DVR/cable box rather than a pure gaming machine...which is all fine and dandy if implemented properly I suppose...but the problem is they forgot to include the DVR functionality (and crippled it with a ridiculously small 500GB HD that isn't replaceable...still a bit of a head-scratcher there...).

When you throw in the fact that the Xbox One's online apps are all behind the Gold paywall, it starts to become even less attractive.

Ultimately, I still see the Xbone as a perfect example of design by committee. The 360 is a wonderful gaming machine that hit at the right time at the right price and did one thing really well. Right now I'm really scratching my head about what exactly MS was thinking with this design, power spec, and price point. They are at a serious disadvantage and all of the attempts to convince people otherwise by spinning obvious hardware disadvantages using mathematical model wizardy just comes off as kind of silly. I'm sure the Xbox One will well fine in the states initially. I think the only question is how it will do everywhere else...and how long will it be able to hold on before MS is forced to release a $400 SKU without the Kinect 2.0. I suspect that won't take long.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
eh meant it like an advantage in the sense xbox has that extra functionality .... how it plays out mass market remains to be seen .... guess same as how ps4s better graphics will play out mass market too .... just trying to keep my posts even keeled ... cause while i clearly feel ps4 is stronger i do understand part of the reason xbox is weaker is their focus on kinect and tv integration .... different approaches ... i prefer ps4 but some may prefer xbox1.
 
eh meant it like an advantage in the sense xbox has that extra functionality .... how it plays out mass market remains to be seen .... guess same as how ps4s better graphics will play out mass market too .... just trying to keep my posts even keeled ... cause while i clearly feel ps4 is stronger i do understand part of the reason xbox is weaker is their focus on kinect and tv integration .... different approaches ... i prefer ps4 but some may prefer xbox1.

Here is the reason people will buy an Xbox One this fall: "I liked the 360 and I don't mind paying $100 more"
 

Ishan

Junior Member
yup. kindof . Also some people have mentioned xbox live networks could play a big part .... dunno how important this is to general populace ... i dont play multiplayer much on consoles ... i did on pc but i had no issues changing steam accounts ... I had say 10 20 ppl who I could also call (like legit telephone cause they were "real life" friends or clanmates from an ex clan etc) to play with (and thus add them to my account) ... randoms i didnt care much about cause i knew when i played enough (cs/dota experience) I would always end up friending randoms of an equivalent skill level.
 
If Kinect 2 was so fucking great, why did Ryse get converted to a standard controller game? Hmmmm?

You would think MS would have wanted to keep their graphical show pony to really sell people on Kinect, but no. Heck, they could have kept a dual control scheme at least. Let the consumer decide.
 
Here is the reason people will buy an Xbox One this fall: "I liked the 360 and I don't mind paying $100 more"

Actually the top 2 reasons I get from my friends still getting an XB1 are

1) I don't want to loose my gamer tag
2) The clans I play with are on Live

I am making the jump to Sony never having owned any PS system. MS has proven themselves untrustworthy and I can care less if I have to start all over on a new console. My gamertag, and achievements aren't worth supporting their crap hardware and business practices.
 

onQ123

Member
If Kinect 2 was so fucking great, why did Ryse get converted to a standard controller game? Hmmmm?

You would think MS would have wanted to keep their graphical show pony to really sell people on Kinect, but no. Heck, they could have kept a dual control scheme at least. Let the consumer decide.

How would that tell you anything about Kinect 2?
 
Here is the reason people will buy an Xbox One this fall: "I liked the 360 and I don't mind paying $100 more"
Yeah, that worked well for the PS3.
yup. kindof . Also some people have mentioned xbox live networks could play a big part .... dunno how important this is to general populace ... i dont play multiplayer much on consoles ... i did on pc but i had no issues changing steam accounts ... I had say 10 20 ppl who I could also call (like legit telephone cause they were "real life" friends or clanmates from an ex clan etc) to play with (and thus add them to my account) ... randoms i didnt care much about cause i knew when i played enough (cs/dota experience) I would always end up friending randoms of an equivalent skill level.
Network effects will play a role, but if Sony or Microsoft really wanted to leverage these they should have pushed for cross-platform play for their networked services e.g. being able to play Battlefield 4 between PS3s and PS4s or COD between 360s and XB1s.

I don't know if it simply wasn't technically feasible.

A different type of network effect is currently in play, I think, wherein more people being positive about and signalling purchase intent towards the PS4, increases the prospective value of the system, and consequently begets more positivity/purchase intent.
 

StevieP

Banned
So is it honestly surprising that an on-paper delta if around 50% has people actively discussing it?

Wasn't there a similar delta between the GameCube and the Wii? 50 percent is a big number when you're comparing 2 smaller numbers that aren't all that far away from each other. At the end of the day the ps4 will be the more powerful box, without a single shadow of doubt - but nobody should feel ashamed for purchasing a platform that's overall a slight bit less powerful. Especially in regards to exclusive software that interest them.
 

Skeff

Member
Yeah, that worked well for the PS3.Network effects will play a role, but if Sony or Microsoft really wanted to leverage these they should have pushed for cross-platform play for their networked services e.g. being able to play Battlefield 4 between PS3s and PS4s or COD between 360s and XB1s.

I don't know if it simply wasn't technically feasible.

A different type of network effect is currently in play, I think, wherein more people being positive about and signalling purchase intent towards the PS4, increases the prospective value of the system, and consequently begets more positivity/purchase intent.

Sony are offering cross play for games that would be possible, such as FF14, there are issues for other cross gen games such as the battlefield 4 player limit is 64 on next gen and is lower on PS360. I don't know of many games doing this but it is something they are looking at.
 
Here is the reason people will buy an Xbox One this fall: "I liked the 360 and I don't mind paying $100 more"

That worked wonders for Sony in 2006.

I think it's more: "I enjoyed playing insert third party titles on ps3/360. I'll go with the most affordable console that will continue to offer this"
 
how long will it be able to hold on before MS is forced to release a $400 SKU without the Kinect 2.0. I suspect that won't take long.

This is the reason I am debating cancelling my pre-order. I'm not a fan of the Kinect because there was never a reason to use it. I mean buried my old kinect because i never used it. I want to be a day one adopted of the new systems but if MS is gonna come out with a kinect-less version in a month or two due to horrible sales then Id rather have that one for $100+ less.
 
plus add on the fact that i honestly think you should get something a little extra being an early adopter of the day one edition. (free game perhaps? something as a little thank you for not waiting on reviews of the system?)

idk. but the more and more i think about it, the more i look towards japan and their system.
 
Remove the Kinect and factor in the fact that Sony are taking a loss on hardware and it doesn't seem so likely to me any more that MS's silicon is costing them more than Sony's, once the GDDR5/DDR cost is taken into account.

So from that point of view it's not a hardware development failure so much as betting on the wrong horse with Kinect and Sony being highly competitive with pricing.

It's not just failure on MS part. Sony is also offering a great product at an amazing price
 

tinfoilhatman

all of my posts are my avatar
If MS dropped the price by a 100$ they'd have my money, if not I'll be getting a PS4 whenever theye available and MAYBE a X1 a year or two later.

Bummer because I really like the X1 launch line up
 
First of, welcome and be careful navigating these choppy waters. :)

If I understood your post correctly, your balanced statement hints at xbone's overall market strategy and not necessarily the hardware power difference between the two. I believe at this point having heard from developers and people such as yourself it's pretty clear that the ps4 is easily a more powerful gaming platform.

Now let's address the tv strategy:
It's pretty clear that the xbooe is designed primarily for the US consumer. After all, the tv integration features as limited as they are will only function in the US and japan during launch. Being a home theater enthusiast myself, I find that one HDMI input can hardly qualify a box as a media hub device. The lack of a built in DVR is also another weak point of the xbone. Based on the demos by Microsoft, the xbone is something to enhance your live tv viewing experience. Furthermore, all the apps are stowed behind a paywall. There are a lot people that do not subscribe to XBL, so these "benefits" will not apply to them.
My Apple TV and Panasonic plasma cover every video service and app I ever need. Also the Apple TV seems to be adding more apps lately and if apple open that platform to developers, it will blow everything else in that space out of the water.


NFL partnership:
Let's start of by saying that outside of the US no one gives a flying fuck about the nfl. But in the US, football is king. So let's look at what we get with the xbone.
Access to red zone app. That's great but it requires a cable subscription so it's redundant and therefore not a selling point for most people.
Fantasy tracking. One problem, everyone I know uses yahoo for their fantasy football/basketball needs. No one cares for nfl.com's version and that's the only one supported.
The only useful thing from the partnership is that xbone will be advertised as the official nfl console, and to a lot of uninformed consumers that so sounds fantastic.

Kinnect:
This is the only feature that I believe may have some potential but is in danger. Kinnect looks cool, but I wonder outside of basic UI navigation how much action it will see from the average consumer. Remember we are talking about the average consumer now and not us geeks on GAF. I bet most people will not go beyond the most basic commands like "Xbox on". Xbone can't afford to be $100 more and still be the weaker system, either Microsoft takes a massive loss and drops the price or drops the kinnect. I bet they'll make a kinnect less sku eventually which would cut the legs out of the kinnect. Making it no longer a mandatory device will also hurt its adoption.

I think I wouldn't be out of line to say that kinnect games are a gimmick until proven otherwise. No one cares for kinnect games and Microsoft faces an uphill battle to make it relevant.

Sony announced face and voice recognition for the PS4, and while I don't claim the ps4 camera being nearly as capable as kinnect, for most looking for these types features it will be good enough. Ps4 will recognize a persons face and respond to verbal commands for navigating the PS4 interface. I believe 80%+ of the consumers will find this more than adequate.


What do you guys think? I am simplifying this too much?

Because based on talking to people around me, who I think are pretty typical consumers I can't come to any other reasonable conclusion.

Nicely put. One thing I don't understand is why MS won't take a loss like Sony is and be competitive? They are making a profit on every Xbox they sell at the moment. Sony stated that they are losing money but if consumers buy a game then they are no longer in the red. If MS drops their price $100 I think they'll be in a similar situation with Sony and I'm sure they can handle a minor loss given the advantages this will offer in the long run. The only explanation for me is the internal issues going on with MS and shareholders wanting to get rid of the games division. I think at this point, it will be hard to convince those shareholder to settle for a loss on each console even though it would be the smart choice.
 

StevieP

Banned
Nicely put. One thing I don't understand is why MS won't take a loss like Sony is and be competitive? They are making a profit on every Xbox they sell at the moment. Sony stated that they are losing money but if consumers buy a game then they are no longer in the red. If MS drops their price $100 I think they'll be in a similar situation with Sony and I'm sure they can handle a minor loss given the advantages this will offer in the long run. The only explanation for me is the internal issues going on with MS and shareholders wanting to get rid of the games division. I think at this point, it will be hard to convince those shareholder to settle for a loss on each console even though it would be the smart choice.

You sure about that profit thing? You sound quite sure of that. Btw - after 2 generations, The suits at MS actually want to make money on the Xbox project. Otherwise it goes the way of the dodo. That's why services and value adds are important this generation.
 
You sure about that profit thing? You sound quite sure of that. Btw - after 2 generations, The suits at MS actually want to make money on the Xbox project. Otherwise it goes the way of the dodo. That's why services and value adds are important this generation.

He's going off the best information we have on it

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...he-xbox-one-will-break-even-or-make-a-profit/

Without more information we have to assume accuracy pretty much

Beaten
 
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