Support NeoGAF

[JonnyLH]

This is almost as wrong as it gets.

Read up before posting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_logic_unit

What? An ALU posts logic and maths calculations in the RAM for the CPU to pick up. The actual processing of that information IN the CPU (General processing) is different to the work in the ALU.

I don't see your point either, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, 14+4? This is old, and I might add, debunked information. It is extra load on the GPU but it has been massively beefed up making the point moot?

You are talking like its going to massively bog down the system noticeably.

No you're taking it like I'm saying its going to bog the system down massively. I'm just saying that GPU beef is there for a reason and its primary function won't just be games. Its dandy that it can GP while working graphical, but thats still extra load on the GPU which normally isn't there.

What does this even mean? There is no hardware division for the CUs. There is just 18 CUs and they can be used as the developer sees fit.

There's a chart for the GPU posted on the last page that shows that.

Refer to above.

Horseshit once again, the CU's contain many wider slower clocked versions of the same/similar SIMD units that you find on CPU's.

What's that got to do with anything? If the GPU can process information from multiple data points within the same operation then that's fine. That won't be rendering & audio though. I'm just saying there's extra load, we're delving into complexities about a simple concept.

Jesus sweet christ, add any information which is contrary to popular believe here and it's like Armageddon.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

No you're taking it like I'm saying its going to bog the system down massively. I'm just saying that GPU beef is there for a reason and its primary function won't just be games. Its dandy that it can GP while working graphical, but thats still extra load on the GPU which normally isn't there.

Which is bad news if it was an "off the shelf" GPU like Xbox One with its 2 ACEs and 4 Compute Queues and on a GPU that can't do compute and graphics threads in parallel.

 

[ElTorro]

What? An ALU posts logic and maths calculations in the RAM for the CPU to pick up. The actual processing of that information IN the CPU (General processing) is different to the work in the ALU.

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is very apparent by now. Why are you continuing? Who do you think you can fool?

If you want to know how computers actually work, start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture But by now I am convinced that you don't want to advance understanding, you just want to score points.

 

[twobear]

As we get to the end of the generation and developers start to use GPCPU more on PS4, presumably that means fewer CUs for graphics-related stuff? How will this work, does it mean that visuals might actually stagnate as CUs start to be used for other purposes, or what?

I'm not actually even sure what kinds of things you might use GPCPU for, presumably there are certain kinds of CPU tasks that aren't particularly well suited to GPCPU and vice versa?

Credible answers appreciated!

 

[RamzaIsCool]

The way I understand it is that the GPU of the PS4 have 18 CU's, 4 of them have been beefed up for potential GPGPU purposes. Those beefed up CU'sdon't really do that much more for general GPU tasks then the standard CU's. It's up to the dev how they use them: 16-2, 17-1 or the much cited 14-4.

Atleast this is how I understand it with my basic knowledge. Dunno if I am wrong or not.

 

[onQ123]

By looking at the article on VGLeaks, its very ambiguous. GPU's are very good maths calculators, and dedicating 4 CU's to the ALU purpose is a very smart idea since it will work much faster than the ALU's in the CPU. If you're denying this, then the PS4 will be much a slower machine. I'd rather have faster ALU's then 4 extra CU's.

Nope, I'm making a relevant statement to say, audio takes a lot of power. Especially this generation. A chip which's primary purpose is to encode streams and work in-game chat doesn't have the "umph" to handle next-generation audio.

Just let it go! all 18 of the CU's can be used as the devs please it's not 14 dedicated to graphics & 4 dedicated to compute.

 

[bonus_sco]

The way I understand it is that the GPU of the PS4 have 18 CU's, 4 of them have been beefed up for potential GPGPU purposes. Those beefed up CU'sdon't really do that much more for general GPU tasks then the standard CU's. It's up to the dev how they use them: 16-2, 17-1 or the much cited 14-4.

Atleast this is how I understand it with my basic knowledge. Dunno if I am wrong or not.

Nothing has been beefed up.

All 18 CUs are the same hardware.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

The way I understand it is that the GPU of the PS4 have 18 CU's, 4 of them have been beefed up for potential GPGPU purposes. Those beefed up CU'sdon't really do that much more for general GPU tasks then the standard CU's. It's up to the dev how they use them: 16-2, 17-1 or the much cited 14-4.

Atleast this is how I understand it with my basic knowledge. Dunno if I am wrong or not.

ALL of the CUs have been beefed up, there is no split.

Nothing has been beefed up.

All 18 CUs are the same hardware.

Beefed up compared to a modern desktop GPU.

 

[KidBeta]

What? An ALU posts logic and maths calculations in the RAM for the CPU to pick up. The actual processing of that information IN the CPU (General processing) is different to the work in the ALU.

What's that got to do with anything? If the GPU can process information from multiple data points within the same operation then that's fine. That won't be rendering & audio though. I'm just saying there's extra load, we're delving into complexities about a simple concept.

Jesus sweet christ, add any information which is contrary to popular believe here and it's like Armageddon.

Its got everything to do with it when you constantly try and claim that some of the ALU's are "different" when it reality this is a load of crap.

GPGPU could actually improve the graphics depending on what your doing breaking out of the restrictions of the FF GPU pipeline isn't exactly a bad thing, it probably helps that OGL4.4 includes extensions to let GPGPU and FF GPU to talk without the use of the CPU.

I am also at a loss as to what you even mean in your first paragraph, it sounds like nothing I've even heard of before "posts" data to RAM what?.

 

[JonnyLH]

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is very apparent by now. Why are you continuing? Who do you think you can fool?

If you want to know how computers actually work, start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture But by now I am convinced that you don't want to advance understanding, you just want to score points.

Now you're bringing me up on terminologies. I'm a software engineer not a hardware architect, I'm posting to the best of my knowledge but apologies if I get terms wrong.

Okay, the ALU is different to the CU in the CPU.

 

[bonus_sco]

ALL of the CUs have been beefed up, there is no split.


Beefed up compared to a modern desktop GPU.

None of the CUs have been altered. Sony have only claimed all altered queues.

 

[KidBeta]

Now you're bringing me up on terminologies. I'm a software engineer not a hardware architect, I'm posting to the best of my knowledge but apologies if I get terms wrong.

Okay, the ALU is different to the CU in the CPU.

You are posting FUD. Constantly, in every post.

None of the CUs have been altered. Sony have only claimed all altered queues.

The cache has also been altered to a degree, but other then that i can't think of much

 

[JonnyLH]

Just let it go! all 18 of the CU's can be used as the devs please it's not 14 dedicated to graphics & 4 dedicated to compute.

The ALU purpose is in the GPU to help the CPU. If you take that out of it and dedicate all those to rendering, then prepared for poor audio, jerky fps, and the lack of physics.

Because they all can be used for that purpose, doesn't mean they should. I was going off the VGLeaks article where it clearly said they can be used for rendering if they want.

 

[mrklaw]

As we get to the end of the generation and developers start to use GPCPU more on PS4, presumably that means fewer CUs for graphics-related stuff? How will this work, does it mean that visuals might actually stagnate as CUs start to be used for other purposes, or what?

I'm not actually even sure what kinds of things you might use GPCPU for, presumably there are certain kinds of CPU tasks that aren't particularly well suited to GPCPU and vice versa?

Credible answers appreciated!

in theory if they do it efficiently, it doesn't mean less for graphics. The idea of fine-grained compute on PS4 is that you can have compute tasks queued up ready to go when one of the CUs stalls on a graphics task. So you kind of interweave graphics and compute tasks to get the most efficient use out of each CU


as for the Edge article - they quote a dev saying the ALU is 50% faster. Is that just using the 18 vs 12 CUs, or does it imply that each ALU is actually faster (something Cerny suggested in his interview with digital foundry)

Digital Foundry: Going back to GPU compute for a moment, I wouldn't call it a rumour - it was more than that. There was a recommendation - a suggestion? - for 14 cores [GPU compute units] allocated to visuals and four to GPU compute...

Mark Cerny: That comes from a leak and is not any form of formal evangelisation. The point is the hardware is intentionally not 100 per cent round. It has a little bit more ALU in it than it would if you were thinking strictly about graphics. As a result of that you have an opportunity, you could say an incentivisation, to use that ALU for GPGPU.

 

[bonus_sco]

You are posting FUD. Constantly, in every post.



The cache has also been altered to a degree, but other then that i can't think of much

Queues and L2 cache not needing a full flush.

 

[KidBeta]

The ALU purpose is in the GPU to help the CPU. If you take that out of it and dedicate all those to rendering, then prepared for poor audio, jerky fps, and the lack of physics.

Because they all can be used for that purpose, doesn't mean they should. I was going off the VGLeaks article where it clearly said they can be used for rendering if they want.

The ALU purpose on the GPU is to do anything the programmer wants. You need to learn more about modern GPU's and GPGPU architecture.

 

[JonnyLH]

You are posting FUD. Constantly, in every post.



The cache has also been altered to a degree, but other then that i can't think of much

You've just seen someone bring me up on a terminlogy mistake and now trying to discredit me. Can't anyone have a discussion here without throwing their toys out of the pram?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

None of the CUs have been altered. Sony have only claimed all altered queues.

7850 has 2 ACE's that have 2 compute queues, PS4 GPU has 8 ACE's with 8 compute queues.

 

[JonnyLH]

The ALU purpose on the GPU is to do anything the programmer wants. You need to learn more about modern GPU's and GPGPU architecture.

Say what again? An ALU is for ALU. If the GPU can handle ALU operations while rendering then that's fine, but it won't be able to use SIMD while its doing it. A point which someone made earlier.

 

[bonus_sco]

The ALU purpose is in the GPU to help the CPU. If you take that out of it and dedicate all those to rendering, then prepared for poor audio, jerky fps, and the lack of physics.

Because they all can be used for that purpose, doesn't mean they should. I was going off the VGLeaks article where it clearly said they can be used for rendering if they want.

You're almost right in places, but you're reading far too much into what you're seeing and jumping to wrong conclusions.

 

[KidBeta]

You've just seen someone bring me up on a terminlogy mistake and now trying to discredit me. Can't anyone have a discussion here without throwing their toys out of the pram?

Can't you post information that is actually correct and not straight bullshit?.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

Nothing has been beefed up.

All 18 CUs are the same hardware.

ALL of the CUs have been beefed up, there is no split.


Beefed up compared to a modern desktop GPU.

Ok! I thought they altered some thing, guess "beefed" is a bit of a big word.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Basic Audio DSP? You're looking at a lot more than than it the next-generation. You've just proved what I'm saying though, the GPU will most likely be doing audio tasks in games. This is perfectly fine, but you're not going to see 18 CU's dedicated to graphical rendering.

The point about audio is that if you start doing smart, dynamic, context aware, 3D positional audio on the GPU on PS4 you will need to do it on the GPU (or the CPU) also on Xbox One as the logic in their Audio DSP will not be flexible enough. This is waht Sony is banking on too.

 

[Perkel]

The way I understand it is that the GPU of the PS4 have 18 CU's, 4 of them have been beefed up for potential GPGPU purposes. Those beefed up CU'sdon't really do that much more for general GPU tasks then the standard CU's. It's up to the dev how they use them: 16-2, 17-1 or the much cited 14-4.

Atleast this is how I understand it with my basic knowledge. Dunno if I am wrong or not.

You are wrong. There is no physical difference between CU. There is no 14-4.


Frankly as first rumors started i was happy that Sony wanted to bump up compute a lot by not allowing devs to use them for other things than for example physic since it would mean basically Psyhx like hardware for every game and could improve our physic in games road a lot.

Naturally that is not the case now.

 

[bonus_sco]

7850 has 2 ACE's that have 2 compute queues, PS4 GPU has 8 ACE's with 8 compute queues.

ACEs have nothing to do with Compute Units.

This is why it's so easy to wind people up in this thread.

Only one guy seems to know what he's talking about. KidBeta must be a dev

 

[KidBeta]

Say what again? An ALU is for ALU. If the GPU can handle ALU operations while rendering then that's fine, but it won't be able to use SIMD while its doing it. A point which someone made earlier.

Do you even know what SIMD is? because it sounds like you honestly don't. The GPU has fine grained control over what it runs on itself, it can split things over multiple CU's or have multiple tasks split over the same CU.

each CU in GCN is a 4 vector SIMD processor. Processing other stuff at the same time doesn't suddenly stop this.

 

[JonnyLH]

Can't you post information that is actually correct and not straight bullshit?.

Oh come on now, you've not once came with information to help the discussion or give it any extra points to discuss you're just now trying to discredit anything from me by a simple mistake.

The underlying point what I'm saying is, the GPU will be working on other tasks other than the graphical rendering. This could be ALU operations, audio, physics. Regarding software architecture, how they're managed totally depends on the engine.

Is anyone denying the fact that the GPU won't be working on those things?

 

[ElTorro]

I'm a software engineer not a hardware architect, I'm posting to the best of my knowledge but apologies if I get terms wrong.

I am a software engineer as well, but that stuff is taught at the beginning of every computer science curriculum I have every seen, and you didn't just get terms wrong. Being wrong is not an issue, I am certainly wrong all the time myself and like to be corrected, but you are claiming things with certainty although you are just making them up as you go. For instance this...

The ALU purpose is in the GPU to help the CPU.

...is just nonsense.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

ACEs have nothing to do with Compute Units.

This is why it's so easy to wind people up in this thread.

Only one guy seems to know what he's talking about. KidBeta must be a dev

My bad, I love the tech behind stuff and there's not many places I can find people who care enough about it, I hope you can suffer my inaccuracies while I learn.

Is anyone denying the fact that the GPU won't be working on those things?

It has more resources to do it though, I don't see what the issue is.

 

[bonus_sco]

Oh come on now, you've not once came with information to help the discussion or give it any extra points to discuss you're just now trying to discredit anything from me by a simple mistake.

The underlying point what I'm saying is, the GPU will be working on other tasks other than the graphical rendering. This could be ALU operations, audio, physics. Regarding software architecture, how they're managed totally depends on the engine.

Is anyone denying the fact that the GPU won't be working on those things?

All GPUs which support compute can do that. It costs a few hundred cycles to switch wavefronts when a stall is detected.

 

[JonnyLH]

It has more resources to do it though, I don't see what the issue is.

Exactly. Finally!

Now can we move on?

 

[onanie]

Oh come on now, you've not once came with information to help the discussion or give it any extra points to discuss you're just now trying to discredit anything from me by a simple mistake.

The underlying point what I'm saying is, the GPU will be working on other tasks other than the graphical rendering. This could be ALU operations, audio, physics. Regarding software architecture, how they're managed totally depends on the engine.

Is anyone denying the fact that the GPU won't be working on those things?

People are denying that the GPU must be used for those things.

 

[bonus_sco]

My bad, I love the tech behind stuff and there's not many places I can find people who care enough about it, I hope you can suffer my inaccuracies while I learn.


It has more resources to do it though, I don't see what the issue is.

No worries, I might not be around much longer after my stunt anyway.

 

[Hollow]

As we get to the end of the generation and developers start to use GPCPU more on PS4, presumably that means fewer CUs for graphics-related stuff? How will this work, does it mean that visuals might actually stagnate as CUs start to be used for other purposes, or what?

I'm not actually even sure what kinds of things you might use GPCPU for, presumably there are certain kinds of CPU tasks that aren't particularly well suited to GPCPU and vice versa?

Credible answers appreciated!

It shouldn't effect graphics much if at all.

Essentially there are points where the CUs are idle in between rendering tasks and you can queue up compute tasks when they are idle.

You can offload things like more complex physics/larger scale physics tasks, Terrain deformation and a lot of other nifty tasks onto the gpu.

 

[JonnyLH]

I am a software engineer as well, but that stuff is taught at the beginning of every computer science curriculum I have every seen, and you didn't just get terms wrong. Being wrong is not an issue, I am certainly wrong all the time myself and like to be corrected, but you are claiming things with certainty although you are just making them up as you go. For instance this...



...is just nonsense.

How about if I told you through education I went in through networking and never did computer science? The fact that I now work in software engineering relies on the fact that I've self taught myself those 8 years. Hardware is not my strong point, I know about it but I could very well be getting a lot of deep points wrong. I made that clear from the start, no need to be so up-tight about it. Atleast I can admit to wrong, unlike others.

 

[Joeki11a]

Cerny stood on stages and called PS4 the most powerful console on planet earth, ms has never said that on stages.

 

[Primedoughnut]

You've just seen someone bring me up on a terminlogy mistake and now trying to discredit me. Can't anyone have a discussion here without throwing their toys out of the pram?

Can I ask are you 'Pro Xbox One' ?

Are you here to discuss the hardware merits of the PS4 and XB1?

or are you just trying to spin BS into FUD so you can magically claim that the stronger, more powerful console is in fact weaker?

You've been asked specific questions about your statements and you've been called out for dodging answers and just ignoring the truth when it's presented to you...

I'm glad your buying an XB1, it's the console of choice for you, but please just stop the petty point scoring to justify your purchase, and No I don't believe your going to buy a PS4 because all you've tried to do since coming into this particular thread is trash it...

 

[bonus_sco]

Exactly. Finally!

Now can we move on?

It doesn't have more compute resources, it has more queues so that there's always jobs ready to go when the GPU is non-ALU bound.

 

[KidBeta]

Oh come on now, you've not once came with information to help the discussion or give it any extra points to discuss you're just now trying to discredit anything from me by a simple mistake.

The underlying point what I'm saying is, the GPU will be working on other tasks other than the graphical rendering. This could be ALU operations, audio, physics. Regarding software architecture, how they're managed totally depends on the engine.

Is anyone denying the fact that the GPU won't be working on those things?

No one is denying that the GPU could work on them, we are denying that the GPU has to work on them and that there are 4 CU's in the GPU that have to do such tasks and cannot be used for rendering.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

It doesn't have more compute resources, it has more queues so that there's always jobs ready to go when the GPU is non-ALU bound.

Surely it has more resources than the Xbox One? 2 ACEs vs 8 ACEs?

 

[JonnyLH]

Can I ask are you 'Pro Xbox One' ?

Are you here to discuss the hardware merits of the PS4 and XB1?

or are you just trying to spin BS into FUD so you can magically claim that the stronger, more powerful console is in fact weaker?

You've been asked specific questions about your statements and you've been called out for dodging answers and just ignoring the truth when it's presented to you...

I'm glad your buying an XB1, it's the console of choice for you, but please just stop the petty point scoring to justify your purchase, and No I don't believe your going to buy a PS4 because all you've tried to do since coming into this particular thread is trash it...

Nah I'm buying both, I've grown up with the PS and still continue to want to play a lot of games on the PS4. Although, the situation around this does stem from the negativity and the ridiculous 50% claims. *Cough* Edge article *cough*.

It doesn't have more compute resources, it has more queues so that there's always jobs ready to go when the GPU is non-ALU bound.

Which is all fine and dandy, but there's still extra load there.

No one is denying that the GPU could work on them, we are denying that the GPU has to work on them and that there are 4 CU's in the GPU that have to do such tasks and cannot be used for rendering.

The GPU does have to work on them, its why this ALU argument got added in the first place because of the VGLeaks article. Sony have modified this for the purpose of it picking up these tasks. The extra beef is there for a reason.

 

[bonus_sco]

Surely it has more resources than the Xbox One? 2 ACEs vs 8 ACEs?

They're just queues. It'll allow the PS4 to have finer grained control over scheduling and priority. There can also be more jobs "in-flight" so the GPU can be more fully utilised.

 

[dragonelite]

Surely it has more resources than the Xbox One? 2 ACEs vs 8 ACEs?

It has more resources because of 12 vs 18 CU.
Not sure how big of an impact ACE will have.

 

[ElTorro]

Atleast I can admit to wrong, unlike others.

That's the point, many of the issues you raised were already addressed in direct replies to you, but you just ignore them and continue posting them. Nobody cares about people being wrong, but people ignoring what other people reply to them is annoying.

 

[onanie]

Which is all fine and dandy, but there's still extra load there.

There is no evidence to suggest that there is "extra load there".

 

[benny_a]

Hardware is not my strong point, I know about it but I could very well be getting a lot of deep points wrong. I made that clear from the start, no need to be so up-tight about it.

Doesn't seem like you made it clear enough, this is what you said in your very first post:

I've been watching this thread since its birth, and I've got to say, the amount of mis-information and conclusions which are being jumped to here is immense. For a community which is highly "in the know" I can't believe anyone hasn't really critically evaluated this with any technological understanding?

Reads more like you're now finally here to school the poor uninformed masses.

And now you have to admit you were wrong while in your first post calling out Edge for being wrong is very ironic.

 

[JonnyLH]

That's the point, many of the issues you raised were already addressed in direct replies to you, but you just ignore them and continue posting them. Nobody cares about people being wrong, but people ignoring what other people reply to them is annoying.

You're now gloating on one terminology wrong and disregarding the whole of my other posts and avoiding my underlying point which is that the GPU will be utilised for other things other than graphics which makes this console generation a more levelled playing field.

 

[TheD]

Nah I'm buying both, I've grown up with the PS and still continue to want to play a lot of games on the PS4. Although, the situation around this does stem from the negativity and the ridiculous 50% claims. *Cough* Edge article *cough*.


Which is all fine and dandy, but there's still extra load there.


The GPU does have to work on them, its why this ALU argument got added in the first place because of the VGLeaks article. Sony have modified this for the purpose of it picking up these tasks. The extra beef is there for a reason.

It is not a ridiculous claim at all, it is inline with the hardware differences between the 2 consoles.

Deal with it.

BTW: The GPU does not have to do audio or physics, it depends on what the programmer wants to do ("ALU operations" would be anything that uses the ALUs.... like rendering!).

 

[KidBeta]

The GPU does have to work on them, its why this ALU argument got added in the first place because of the VGLeaks article. Sony have modified this for the purpose of it picking up these tasks. The extra beef is there for a reason.

The GPU doesn't 'HAVE' to do anything, hell the GPU doesn't even have to render the scene if you want to, what most people are bringing you up on is that you still insist that there is a hardware division somewhere that means 4 CU's have to be used for something when its obviously not true.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

They're just queues. It'll allow the PS4 to have finer grained control over scheduling and priority. There can also be more jobs "in-flight" so the GPU can be more fully utilised.

So its basically just task scheduling? Like an out of order processor it tells it what, how and when?