Oh my absolute god. You wonder why this forum has such a bad reputation and often is called "SonyGAF". I'm not even preaching for the X1 here, nor a fanboy, literally saying that the 50% claim is absolute horse-shit. Which, if you check the OP. Is what this thread is about.
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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
I'm not sure what your point is there.
If the GPU stalls cycles go to waste so it switches wavefronts and carries on processing. It's exactly how GPUs are designed to hide latency.
CPUs reorder instructions to achieve the same thing.
Getting add close to 100% hardware utilisation is exactly what coding to the metal on consoles is all about.
And you have not given sufficiently good arguments why that is the case. You even made the GDDR5 latency argument, that should tell everyone that has followed tech threads on GAF enough about your knowledge about the technical debate.
People have forwarded me on information around that it is possible, which is fine. Then you've got to consider which poor sod is coding it to do that. The fact of the matter is, its the best and easiest way to 'dedicate' hardware to certain tasks. I'm not denying anything here.
Basically, yes but heavily modified from a normal desktop part.
The GPU can be utilised for things other than graphics, but not because it needs to (which is what you're desperately trying to imply here).
The GPU is going to be working on other tasks at hand which include physics, audio, support the CPU in ALU operations. Which everyone in heated debate is confirming. Which means when it comes to games, you're seeing a very level playing field. Which may I add, we are seeing.
Of course, but if you want to consider the poor sod then you need to consider that GPGPU isn't exactly the easiest thing to extract perf from there are many a task where it is slower then a CPU, or only barely faster for 10x the 'theoretical performance', it is at times like getting blood from a stone. Most people will default to the CPU for a lot of tasks because of this.
Could be working on, not going to, it doesn't have to, we have been over this already.
The GPU has 50% more CUs than the Xbox One.
The Xbox had fixed function coprocessors which will help out a bit.
Not in the case of the PS4. This is why the beef is there in the GPU?
So that means the whole console is 50% powerful? You've proved my point. My god, I'm off for some food and games. Also 15 co-processors may I add.
The Xbox is going to be doing those things too.
If PS4 is split 14+4, Xbox might be split 9+3.
I am not gloating on terminology, I already said that you got the concepts wrong, and you are not "admitting" that, you are just jumping to the next topic, going in cycles, just to repeat the same stuff you already wrote later on. About avoiding issues, that's highly ironic, I already wrote:
I don't see a reason to jump from red herring to red herring without actually addressing the issues.
You're the one saying this, not the rest of us. Everyone else is explaining to you that the GPU can be used for whatever devs want to. You're the one insisting on 14+4 hardware division nonsense.
What I posted is the case for GPGPU programming in general, for every GPU.
The PS4 has plenty of CPU power it might not have the most ultra fast CPU of today but it has 8 cores for gods sake, thats plenty.
EmptySpace
Banned
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I might be speaking out of turn but Cerny said they designed the PS4 so that it was easy to use the power from day one but they were futureproofing so developers can extract more power from GPGPU enhancements as the years go on.
I was just showing you that it's not 4 CU's dedicated to Compute & that all of the CU's can be used as the devs please.
nothing that you said change that you are just going from one thing to the next.
The PS4 GPU can work on tasks other than graphics, but if that is not matched by an equivalent effort from the xbone GPU, it wont be a level field by any stretch of imagination. It will be ugly for the xbone.
Ofcourse it is, and it will be used extensively. Although its not the best place for audio processing or physics at all in this case.
No I'm not? I'm just going from the VGLeaks article and in software terms, it's much easier to dedicate CU's for a specific purpose which can easily provide that.
When you read a page and most of the quote boxes are green, its easy to skip out replies. By any means is my underlying point wrong.
Im out.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Anything that comes in handy is good in my book since these system so weak to begin with compare to current PC gpus .
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Yeah but 15 co-processors.......
Audio will be fine on the CPU. I honestly cannot see it taking up more then 1 jaguar core to as many effects and reverbs as you want, this leaves you with in the least 5 more, to do what? AI?. May as well do other stuff on it.
Those coprocessors are very useful and powerful, don't go writing them off.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I'm not I just find it funny that he can end a sentence with ...also 15 co-processors, as if it is a discussion beating answer.
Primedoughnut
Banned
We don't even know what they do or what they contain, i'm going to treat it as PR fluff until we learn more.
Stop insisting that they added extra ALUs because their other hardware like audio is lackluster.
They added it because they see future in GPGPU not because it is patch for their lackluster hardware.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Completely, utterly false.
Only if the developers WANTS the GPU to do other tasks outside of rendering scenes, will it do those tasks.
It is not a requirement whatsoever.
someone forgot to tell you the PS4 has a dedicated audio processor as well, fully able to handle high def. audio streams on its own.
Also, they haven't " added " ALU's at all. The Radeon 7850 has 16 CU's, the 7870 has 20CU's. Looks like they just met that in the middle with the PS4. Most everything else from this GPU is right in line with the Radeon 7850, besides have a little bit more memory bandwidth and the like. I like to call the PS4 GPU a 7860. Seems to be right there in the middle.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
Hurray, another thread with another junior spreading misinformation.
That is why the PS4 also has a dedicated audio processor. Neither consoles have dedicated physics processing. Thus all those "other tasks" that the PS4 GPU "needs" to do, will be done with more available resources than the xbox GPU has.
AI, animation, PVS, GPU driver (we're looking at loads more draw calls, setting up compute, PRT work, streamjng, etc.), PS4 CPU or GPU is going to have to do the swizzling the move engines do on Xbox, maybe audio on PS4 if wanting SHAPE like effects.
The CPU won't be short of work
AI, animation, PVS, GPU driver (we're looking at loads more draw calls, setting up compute, PRT work, streamjng, etc.), PS4 CPU or GPU is going to have to do the swizzling the move engines do on Xbox, maybe audio on PS4 if wanting SHAPE like effects.
The CPU won't be short of work
The GPU memory controllers will do all kinds of swizzling for you, it shouldn't be a surprise as it should be what the XBONE DME's are most likely bassed off.
Setting up and firing off jobs these days is a lot cheaper then it used to be, I think it was around DX10 when they started to try and reduce the number of draw calls to make the strain less on the CPU. PRT stuff should be done from the GPU, as it is the device that reads in the textures.
I honestly don't see a lot of work for the CPU to do
. (I counted the GPU driver in the 2 reserved cores btw) and reserved a entire jaguar core just for SHAPE. Animation is a good point though.
If we give each job a core of its own we still have 2/3 left over doing nothing.
Well, it depends on if the VGLeaks docs are accurate but you've got memcpy, tiling/swizzle, JPEG decode, LZ encode/decode, framebuffer scaling, framebuffer blending, audio generation, audio encode/decode, h.264 all on coprocessors.
it's funny because it's exactly the same "arguments" we heard from major nelson and Albert Penello
gundamkyoukai
Member
You also have to remember that not only does the PS4 have extra CUs compare to X1.
It also has more ROPs and Texture units so every little bit adds up when we talking about GFX.
It also has more ROPs and Texture units so every little bit adds up when we talking about GFX.
The GPU memory controllers will do all kinds of swizzling for you, it shouldn't be a surprise as it should be what the XBONE DME's are most likely bassed off.
Setting up and firing off jobs these days is a lot cheaper then it used to be, I think it was around DX10 when they started to try and reduce the number of draw calls to make the strain less on the CPU. PRT stuff should be done from the GPU, as it is the device that reads in the textures.
I honestly don't see a lot of work for the CPU to do
Animation is a good point though.
People keep saying GPUs can do hardware tiling/swizzling. They can't
.The driver usually does it in the driver on the CPU, MS added dedicated hardware for the task.
Doesn't each ACE have 8 queues?
The GPU memory controllers will do all kinds of swizzling for you, it shouldn't be a surprise as it should be what the XBONE DME's are most likely bassed off.
Setting up and firing off jobs these days is a lot cheaper then it used to be, I think it was around DX10 when they started to try and reduce the number of draw calls to make the strain less on the CPU. PRT stuff should be done from the GPU, as it is the device that reads in the textures.
I honestly don't see a lot of work for the CPU to do
Animation is a good point though.
If we give each job a core of its own we still have 2/3 left over doing nothing.
The CPU has to decide which tiles should be resident for PRT and "upload" them to the driver. The GPU just reads/writes to a virtual memory address.
Gee, if only there were a way to inform the moderation staff.
Oppo
Member
.. he said, as the blast door came down on him...
I wonder why people do that, double-down on an argument, when practically the whole thread is saying no, that's not right. You'd think you'd want to be right, have the actual correct info, more than "winning" the debate. Ah well.
Console launches, eh? good times.
bonus sco said:
MS has a hardware swizzler?
Not doubting that, but I find the term kind of hilarious.
"Quickly! Into the Swizzler!"
On PS4 yes, on XB1 each ACE has 2 queues.
Damn, i was enjoying the show. Techgaf regulars making themselves look silly by constantly responding instead of ignoring. Passion trumps logic i suppose
Cerny explicity called out "audio" GPGPU. He talked about raycasting to work out effect volumes etc.
Damn, I thought it was the same on both consoles. So Xbone is 2/4 only?
Lol, it was known as tiling until recently but it gets confused with tiles in PRT.
Swizzling gets confused with vector element operations now. Too many words have too many overloaded meanings.
gundamkyoukai
Member
They have been worst threads than this when it comes to that .
Makes it harder to learn stuff lol .