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[ittoryu]

Lets be honest, apart from the pound, things have not gone nuclear since the referendum (I think that is fair?) in fact some would argue the opposite...

Now we have not officially left yet as many will argue, but I honestly feel it wont be as bad as project fear claimed, nor will it be as good as project leave claimed...

I firmly believe it will be somewhere in the middle...and I also think there has been a softening of attitudes of remainers, and the need to watch the UK burn has calmed somewhat, like any divorce we both will do and say things we regret, but the hope is thatin the future we will both be happy.

everyone just needs a group hug

In all honesty?
I really don't want a group hug.

Why would I want a hug or anything similar to that after being used as an example of what doesn't work in UK, of what the problem is, of how it's my fault that British people can't get a doctor appointment?

No thanks, I really don't want it. It's too easy to just forget what the whole referendum was about and push this "let's be in it together" agenda.
No: if you voted out, you need to accept whatever the consequences will be.

I read your post and I still see terms that are frankly laughable like "Project Fear"... really?

 

[witchedwiz]

Which would be a bad thing, for sure, and something to avoid, but it's not as if we'd be seeing EU bailiffs calling to collect.

You call that just "bad" as in "minor of two evil"-bad?
the joke is on you.. should uk refuse to honor the whole brexit bill, you would see a lot of unrest, as at that point any "agreement" of how eu workers will fare when working in non-eu UK will be put on hold for quite some time...
we'll see...

 

[Tak3n]

In all honesty?
I really don't want a group hug.

Why would I want a hug or anything similar to that after being used as an example of what doesn't work in UK, of what the problem is, of how it's my fault that British people can't get a doctor appointment?

No thanks, I really don't want it. It's too easy to just forget what the whole referendum was about and push this "let's be in it together" agenda.
No: if you voted out, you need to accept whatever the consequences will be.

I read your post and I still see terms that are frankly laughable like "Project Fear"... really?

Fair doos, I kind of meant the politicians need a group hug that is all, if all that is going to happen is threats and counter threats for the next 2 years, it serves no purpose other than to cause damage to both sides, only you can resolve how you feel about the leave side, what I can say is that all the racist crap seems to of stopped (or being reported) people are getting back on with it, so it just felt like there was a movement towards acceptance over anger

poor choice of words on project fear, would you agree that things have not been as bad as many predicted? with the caveat we have not left yet....our economy was just upgraded yesterday to pre referendum highs

 

[Chinner]

Should all the white people have one big group hug, and then the minorities have another separate hug?

 

[suedester]

So Juncker wants 60bn that the UK has agreed to fund numerous projects, that's fine. I assume some of the money would've come back to the UK in the way of science funding etc? Would that money still be coming, I assume it must do. That being the case, I don't see a problem. If that isn't the case then the EU can go fuck off.

 

[Tak3n]

So Juncker wants 60bn that the UK has agreed to fund numerous projects, that's fine. I assume some of the money would've come back to the UK in the way of science funding etc? Would that money still be coming, I assume it must do. That being the case, I don't see a problem. If that isn't the case then the EU can go fuck off.

it is pensions are EU projects the EU/UK had agreed to, TBH it feels like a pie in the sky figure, the I expect it to be half that

 

[theaface]

Lets be honest, apart from the pound, things have not gone nuclear since the referendum (I think that is fair?) in fact some would argue the opposite...

Now we have not officially left yet as many will argue, but I honestly feel it wont be as bad as project fear claimed, nor will it be as good as project leave claimed...

I firmly believe it will be somewhere in the middle...and I also think there has been a softening of attitudes of remainers, and the need to watch the UK burn has calmed somewhat, like any divorce we both will do and say things we regret, but the hope is thatin the future we will both be happy.

everyone just needs a group hug

No, we haven't officially left yet. Nor have we officially signalled our intent to leave. That is not something that can just be hand-waved away. And even if things don't decline in this country the way that all of the experts have predicted, if they equally don't get any better either, then what is the fucking point? If more jobs aren't created, wages don't go up and token reductions in immigration make no impact on peoples' perceptions of the issue, why are we even bothering?

Say what you will about Tony Blair but one thing he was SPOT ON about is that this has become a single-issue government, and every penny, minute and person spent working on Brexit is a resource that isn't being used for proper domestic policy. Brexit is the beginning, middle and end of this government, forsaken all other important issues.

Oh and lastly...

Now we have not officially left yet as many will argue, but I honestly feel it wont be as bad as project fear claimed, nor will it be as good as project leave claimed...

One of these things is not like the other. Either call them ''project remain' and 'project leave' respectively or if you want to be a big baby about it and still peddle the 'project fear' nonsense, why don't you balance out the other side and call it 'project lies, broken promises, xenophobia and bigotry'?

 

[ClosingADoor]

it is pensions are EU projects the EU/UK had agreed to, TBH it feels like a pie in the sky figure, the I expect it to be half that

How is it a pie in the sky figure, if in the same sentence you say they are things the EU and UK have agreed upon?

 

[Aureon]

Is this in addition to our annual contribution? Because it sounds like what we're paying already.

2015 net contribution £8.5bn

8.5*6yrs=£51bn

Seems pretty close to the £48bn quoted

No, it's the same thing - pending payments for the already approved budget (which runs until 2021)

 

[Tak3n]

No, we haven't officially left yet. Nor have we officially signalled our intent to leave. That is not something that can just be hand-waved away. And even if things don't decline in this country the way that all of the experts have predicted, if they equally don't get any better either, then what is the fucking point? If more jobs aren't created, wages don't go up and token reductions in immigration make no impact on peoples' perceptions of the issue, why are we even bothering?

Say what you will about Tony Blair but one thing he was SPOT ON about is that this has become a single-issue government, and every penny, minute and person spent working on Brexit is a resource that isn't being used for proper domestic policy. Brexit is the beginning, middle and end of this government, forsaken all other important issues.

Oh and lastly...



One of these things is not like the other. Either call them ''project remain' and 'project leave' respectively or if you want to be a big baby about it and still peddle the 'project fear' nonsense, why don't you balance out the other side and call it 'project lies, broken promises, xenophobia and bigotry'?

100% on a one issue Government, I was telling my wife the other day there could be some nasty shit going though the commons that is not getting any coverage, because it is all Brexit, in many ways it is a classic smoke and mirrors tactic....

School funding
Dubs Scheme
Heathrow
HS2

to name a few are getting no traction in the news

 

[dumbo]

So Juncker wants 60bn that the UK has agreed to fund numerous projects, that's fine. I assume some of the money would've come back to the UK in the way of science funding etc? Would that money still be coming, I assume it must do. That being the case, I don't see a problem. If that isn't the case then the EU can go fuck off.

Yes, that has to be the case. A chunk of the money will be paid by the UK to the EU, who will pay it to the UK, who will pay it to the UK institution.

But I've no idea how large that chunk is.

 

[Tak3n]

How is it a pie in the sky figure, if in the same sentence you say they are things the EU and UK have agreed upon?

I meant that they would expect to get that, I don't seriously think for one moment they believe the UK will pay that

 

[Chinner]

One of these things is not like the other. Either call them ''project remain' and 'project leave' respectively or if you want to be a big baby about it and still peddle the 'project fear' nonsense, why don't you balance out the other side and call it 'project lies, broken promises, xenophobia and bigotry'?

Too true, but he's going to ignore this completely. He's too timid to address as this as he will have to admit some type of understanding or fault.

 

[Coxy100]

100% on a one issue Government, I was telling my wife the other day there could be some nasty shit going though the commons that is not getting any coverage, because it is all Brexit, in many ways it is a classic smoke and mirrors tactic....

School funding
Dubs Scheme
Heathrow
HS2

to name a few are getting no traction in the news

for me the biggest disgrace is HS2 - what a waste of money.

 

[Tak3n]

Too true, but he's going to ignore this completely. He's too timid to address as this as he will have to admit some type of understanding or fault.

already said it was a poor choice of words when it was quoted, if you read up.once again, it was a poor choice of words

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=230928129&postcount=53

 

[Frankfurter]

I agree with a lot of that, which is why there will need to be an element of punishment to deter other nations (although personally I'm not really sure why the EU wants to threaten nations into membership...but that's a different discussion). The UK can not be allowed to be in a position outside the EU that is superior to its position inside, that is the line that has been drawn. The UK will not be in a superior position but it may be allowed to be in position that is marginally worse. You mention freedom of movement and I agree with that as well, which is why I suggest that freedom of movement could be retained to a large degree, with powers of control of somesort to go to the UK.

The EU has to be the winner in this deal but it could be a win on points, it doesn't have to be a fight to the death with the EU standing over the mangled corpse of the UK having lost a limb, three teeth and suffered brain damage in the process.

This is exactly the thing that's not gonna happen imo. Freedom of movement means freedom of movement period.

 

[Tak3n]

for me the biggest disgrace is HS2 - what a waste of money.

only way to get the London elite out of their bubble......come see how the poor folk live up north, on a posh new train...don't worry it will only be an hour of your time

 

[Charles Brandon]

This is exactly the thing that's not gonna happen imo. Freedom of movement means freedom of movement period.

That's not true, there have been qualifications to freedom of movement in the past and there still are. For example, countries were allowed to restrict access for "new" EU member citizens back in the 2000s, which the UK did not do but which other countries did, including Germany for example. There are restrictions on benefits, restrictions on length of stay without employment, restrictions for criminals.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

That's not true, there have been qualifications to freedom of movement in the past and there still are. For example, countries were allowed to restrict access for "new" EU member citizens back in the 2000s, which the UK did not do but which other countries did, including Germany for example. There are restrictions on benefits, restrictions on length of stay without employment, restrictions for criminals.

You will have to look at Norway for a comparable case.

 

[Tak3n]

That's not true, there have been qualifications to freedom of movement in the past and there still are. For example, countries were allowed to restrict access for "new" EU member citizens back in the 2000s, which the UK did not do but which other countries did, including Germany for example. There are restrictions on benefits, restrictions on length of stay without employment, restrictions for criminals.

I honestly feel if Brown had just been more cautious and applied some due diligence, when he first allowed open doors on new countries, we would not be here today, as immigration would of allready been controlled

 

[QuicheFontaine]

No, it's the same thing - pending payments for the already approved budget (which runs until 2021)

Well in that case I don't even see what the problem is here

 

[SteveWD40]

True but fundamentally crashing out with no deal isnt exactly going to have no affect on the EU either. Sure it will hurt the UK more, but I as a remainer state we don't exist in a vacuum. What affects one WILL affect the other.

I dunno. I'm just tired at this point. I dearly wanted to stay in but all sides need to start growing up. It's happening. Regardless of how we got here, it's in the UKs interests to learn some goddamn humility and in the EUs interests not to be an unmovable object as it's currently dealing with multiple threats to its existence even excluding Brexit.

In a similar way to how I imagine all Americans on here are tired of the blanket 'durp U.S, you elected Trump you dickheads' I'm tired of literally every UK thread for eight months plus turning into 'fucking U.K, they deserve a thrashing for their stupidity'.

We are people. A collective. Wishing the worst of a nation as a whole irrespective of what lead here is as unproductive as me continually slating and hating the people who wanted Brexit. There are many good people here and decades of national positive projects promoting EU unity are just being swept away in this bile (I was part of an EU choir project to which I met many wonderful people across the continent)

I've heard language used like 'the EU can cherry pick, and strip the UK financial industry bare, they need to be to be told its place, it had a good deal and now the EU27 can hold out / gang up on the UK to get sweet deals because lol we can veto you' - frankly it's as bullying and bloody minded rhetoric as the shitty xenophobic bollocks I heard from the Leave Campaign.

I'm sick of both sides frankly but that's not to say the classic 'both sides are the same'. They are not. The UK goofed collectively but opening gambits like saying 'you owe us 60 billion before we even talk to you' - whatever I think of our UK chiefs, what are they supposed to say?

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Tak3n]

Well in that case I don't even see what the problem is here

The rhetoric, just think for a minute...

EU expects UK to honour budget responsibilities, until they leave

EU tells UK pay us 60 Billion before we even talk to you on trade

all in the delivery, both sides need to simmer down

 

[ClosingADoor]

I meant that they would expect to get that, I don't seriously think for one moment they believe the UK will pay that

Why not? These are the agreed upon numbers. You can't just go "well, we out, we don't pay anymore!" with things like this. The UK approved it already and needs to uphold its agreements.

 

[Monty Mole]

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

 

[Tak3n]

Why not? These are the agreed upon numbers. You can't just go "well, we out, we don't pay anymore!" with things like this. The UK approved it already and needs to uphold its agreements.

Devil in the detail, I am presuming these were agreed to pre-referendum, now we are leaving things obviously change, now if the EU roll out a contract that states that any country that leave the EU are liable for pre agreed budget costings, then fair cop....something tells me no document exists

 

[Tak3n]

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

keep an eye on Downing Street for any Horses Heads being delivered

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Can we just hold another referendum already? I've met a lot of leavers who now regret their decision to vote leave, after learning the truth and finding out all the lies the leave campaign was based on!

 

[ClosingADoor]

Devil in the detail, I am presuming these were agreed to pre-referendum, now we are leaving things obviously change, now if the EU roll out a contract that states that any country that leave the EU are liable for pre agreed budget costings, then fair cop....something tells me no document exists

Yes, the UK is leaving, so the UK changes things. But that doesn't mean you can go back on all existing agreements already.

The whole UK line of "we leave, so now things change" doesn't make any sense. That applies to future dealings, not to already agreed upon things.

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

Punish? By holding the UK to its agreements? How is that punishing? The UK wants to leave. They are free to do so. But don't come whining about how the EU is now the bad guy for not making it as easy as possible on the UK. There are 27 other countries in the EU and they have no obligation towards the UK to scrap any agreements that means those 27 have to pay more now.

The UK seems to think they are some special country and the whole world needs to adapt towards what they want, but that is not how this works.

 

[Tak3n]

Can we just hold another referendum already? I've met a lot of leavers who now regret their decision to vote leave, after learning the truth and finding out all the lies the leave campaign was based on!

no, and just think about it, what do we do if remain wins.....do we just go, well that is the result people in power wanted so tough luck leave voters....

What would happen is UKIP would run riot at the elections, there would be constant calls for a a 3rd referendum, the chaos and damage it would cause

 

[ittoryu]

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

If you agree on something before, you pay.
If you sign a contract and then say "actually I don't want that car", you pay.

It's the basic of how contracts, deals, etc. are working.
Were you expecting a pat in the back and "friends like before"?

 

[suedester]

If you agree on something before, you pay.
If you sign a contract and then say "actually I don't want that car", you pay.

It's the basic of how contracts, deals, etc. are working.
Were you expecting a pat in the back and "friends like before"?

It depends on the wording of the contract or agreement. I've no doubt both sides will spend millions on lawyer fees arguing their respective case unless the terms are water tight. Which I doubt.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Should all the white people have one big group hug, and then the minorities have another separate hug?

Hey I don't want to be in a group hug with the people who voted leave, even if they have he same skin colour as me. Much rather be with the minorities.

 

[Frankfurter]

That's not true, there have been qualifications to freedom of movement in the past and there still are. For example, countries were allowed to restrict access for "new" EU member citizens back in the 2000s, which the UK did not do but which other countries did, including Germany for example. There are restrictions on benefits, restrictions on length of stay without employment, restrictions for criminals.

That's true. That was the same right for every single country though (i.e. every country could block immigration from, say, Poland, for a certain amount of time), not one specifically created for the UK.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Can we just hold another referendum already? I've met a lot of leavers who now regret their decision to vote leave, after learning the truth and finding out all the lies the leave campaign was based on!

Not unless you just want to lose again. Your anecdotal experience is not reflected in the polls:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Post.E2.80.93referendum_polling

 

[DarthMasta]

I'd expect a deal, something to take into account how much Britain would have paid if still in the EU minus what it would have gotten back.

Even such a deal will still end up with Britain paying x amount (since Britain is a net contributor), and a guaranteed headline of "Britain paying x amount entirely to foreigners"...

 

[Tak3n]

Not unless you just want to lose again. Your anecdotal experience is not reflected in the polls:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Post.E2.80.93referendum_polling

Interesting, I expected it to be the other way

 

[d9b]

EU: "Where's mah €60 billion Britain?"

 

[GeordieMark]

Should all the white people have one big group hug, and then the minorities have another separate hug?

This is a dumb post. Much of the anti-immigration sentiment around Brexit was to do with immigration from Eastern Europe. Yep, other white people.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

no, and just think about it, what do we do if remain wins.....do we just go, well that is the result people in power wanted so tough luck leave voters....

What would happen is UKIP would run riot at the elections, there would be constant calls for a a 3rd referendum, the chaos and damage it would cause

A strong government at which point would just shut them down I'd hope, besides the alternative is a messy divorce that spitefully ruins both the UK and EU all to appease a decreasing majoirty of people who.........

Not unless you just want to lose again. Your anecdotal experience is not reflected in the polls:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Post.E2.80.93referendum_polling

....WHAT?

WHAT?

fuck me, maybe I need to leave the country, the idiots are in charge!

 

[The Hamburglar]

Come on this is clearly a big fuck you from the eu for leaving and designed to warn other countries that if you leave we will charge you. Hope the uk refuses to pay and tbh May has no choice but to refuse or else look weak.

 

[Tak3n]

A strong government at which point would just shut them down I'd hope, besides the alternative is a messy divorce that spitefully ruins both the UK and EU all to appease a decreasing majoirty of people who.........



....WHAT?

WHAT?

fuck me, maybe I need to leave the country, the idiots are in charge!

one could argue we had a strong Government, but Cameron felt the danger from UKIP, so gambled, it is the political world, sometimes people put party first

 

[Aureon]

The rhetoric, just think for a minute...

EU expects UK to honour budget responsibilities, until they leave

EU tells UK pay us 60 Billion before we even talk to you on trade

all in the delivery, both sides need to simmer down

No, that's not quite just it. It's all projects the UK signed off on, some of which are debts expected to run longer than that (eg. pension obligations)
Things like CERN funding is until 2021, but that's not because the UK is planned to leave in 2021 - that's because the UK approved the budget until that.

Come on this is clearly a big fuck you from the eu for leaving and designed to warn other countries that if you leave we will charge you. Hope the uk refuses to pay and tbh May has no choice but to refuse or else look weak.

And by "Weak" you mean "Refuse to honor obligations made".
See also "Untrustworthy enough not to make a trade deal with".

 

[ClosingADoor]

Come on this is clearly a big fuck you from the eu for leaving and designed to warn other countries that if you leave we will charge you. Hope the uk refuses to pay and tbh May has no choice but to refuse or else look weak.

How is trying to have Britain honor its agreements a "big fuck you". This money is for:

The sum is expected to cover the UK’s share of the cost of projects and programmes it signed up to as part of the 28-nation bloc, as well as pensions for all the EU officials who have served during its 45-year membership.

So, why shouldn't Britain pay its share for projects and programs they agreed to, and pay for the pensions of EU officials that served while they were a member?

 

[StayDead]

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

Looks like you've been suckered in by what the tories have been saying over and over again.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Come on this is clearly a big fuck you from the eu for leaving and designed to warn other countries that if you leave we will charge you. Hope the uk refuses to pay and tbh May has no choice but to refuse or else look weak.

No. It has more to do with the fact that the UK agreed to payments until 2021 and you not easily drop out of agreements you made.

 

[ramparter]

Well they can use all the money they spend on NHS to pay Europe instead.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

No, that's not quite just it. It's all projects the UK signed off on, some of which are debts expected to run longer than that (eg. pension obligations)
Things like CERN funding is until 2021, but that's not because the UK is planned to leave in 2021 - that's because the UK approved the budget until that.

This is what's confusing me. That seems perfectly reasonable, and I can't see the problem with May going to the British people and saying we'll continue our regular contribution up to the end of the current accounting period. We're already paying our current contribution so we can clearly afford it.

This framing of the issue by Juncker, and the use of phrases like "the cost of Brexit to the British Treasury would be very hefty”, is needlessly combative. He always seemed like a massive plonker though so I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Tosyn_88]

You will see the EU buckle under the mighty pressure of the United Kingdom when they realise that we buy all of their cars and they import all of our jam. The EU will realise that they messed with the wrong chaps.

My one hope is that the UK will become the major world superpower it used to be, I hope my grand children see the UK reclaiming Europe as its own, cleansing what is not pure. We will call the UKU - United Kingdom Union.

World super power of where?? Colonise Asian and African countries again?

 

[Orniletter]

I am (or was) a strong remainer, but with recent comments from the EU, I'm starting to feel like they can go and fuck themselves. This was a democratic vote, and instead of respecting the will of the British people, the EU wants to punish them.

It's all starting to feel like being a member of the mafia, and if you want to leave.. well you have to pay your security money. Forever.

This is the most hilarious spin I've ever heard.

EU officials before the referendum: " You will not enjoy the benefits of being a memberstate, there won't be access to the common market without the four freedoms, there will be no cherry picking and you'll have to pay your outstanding debt before you leave. Please stay."

* UK votes to leave anyway *

EU officials after the referendum: "We told you exactly what we'll do and what is not on the table for your trade agreement. "

Oh no, the evil unelected, bureaucratic nightmare, straight banana, european mafia.