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[DeepEnigma]

If it is rendered at 120fps then it is native 120fps.

What PSVR will have are games rendered in 60fps or 90fps retroprojected to 120fps.

Well there are 3 option to devs.

- 120fps rendered/native
- 90fps rendered/native retroprojected to 120fps
- 60fps rendered/native retroprojected to 120fps

90 stays 90.

The headset can do 90hz and 120hz.

60 goes to 120.
90 stays 90.
120 obviously is 120.

Edit: Beaten

 

[ethomaz]

90fps games don't reproject to 120fps, the display can run at 90Hz.

90 stays 90.

The headset can do 90hz and 120hz.

60 goes to 120.
90 stays 90.
120 obviously is 120.

Edit: Beaten

Yeap I checked... fixing

Thanks

 

[ethomaz]

Since Sony/MS are purchasing APUs directly from factories and not from GPU companies, they are paying for the chip wafers and not for "performance levels of individual chips" [this situation happened with MS and Nvidia during Xbox1 years, MS purchased chips directly from Nvidia which caused issues]. At 14nm wafer size remains the same, but more smaller chips can be put in them. They are essentially paying [lets say $10K] per waffer, and then hoping that as much chips as possible are functional [rate of success is called chip yield].

http://images.books24x7.com/bookimages/id_13501/fig5-28.jpg [extreme example of same wafer error locations, but different number of working chips due to smaller chips]

What I want to say is, if Sony targets for the same ~350mm2 APU size but now done in 14nm tech, that APU will be MUCH more powerful and if yields are good it will cost THE SAME as current 28nm PS4 APU. Saying that the new APU will be more expensive may in fact not be true. It simply depends on number of wafers in parallel production, chip size, and yields.

IMO, they will go with smaller [~Polaris11 sized] 14nm chips [if they even intend to go with Polaris route].

You are right if they can make a more powerful APU fits in the same size of the actual APU using a lower process.

You just forget new APUs didn't have the same % of good yelds than actual/old APUs.

They pay per wafer but the % of good chips that come from it interferes in the cost of APU.

I can bet with anyone here the % of good chips that come from a wafer today is better than what they got at PS4 launch... that alone made the APU cheaper to produce than it was at launch without need to shrink to a lower process.

 

[DieH@rd]

I can bet with anyone here the % of good chips that come from a wafer today is better than what they got at PS4 launch... that alone made the APU cheaper to produce than it was at launch without need to shrink to a lower process.

By the time PS4 started production, 28nm was already several year old process, I don't believe there was much improvement in it. MS had issues because they used very tightly packed transistors for ESRAM module, but Sony's was more traditional design.

I expect majority of the price/power/cost in CUH1200 was achieved with the switch to half GDDR5 chips and smaller mobo/cooling/PSU. APU cost probably stayed the same. They could probably bin them better so they were a bit more power efficient.

 

[napata]

Just a random exploration...


PS4 currently has ~270X level of performance [in reality it is bit below it because it has 2 less CUs and lower clocks, but architecture is the same]. This fits nicely with current state of things since PS4 is indeed there at 1080p30 in this particular game at great visual settings.

Now, if we can believe that Polaris is indeed 2.5x of the 28nm GCN, move to a 14nm APU would enable PS4K to remain at the same power level [even more if they adopt power levels of launch PS4] but gain tremendous rendering boost, more than FuryX! In this particular game it can achieve ~44fps at 4K when using good CPU [and no, we clearly don't need 4X GPU performance to jump from 1080p to 4K].

Of course, boosting GPU will help only in GPU-limited scenarios. To ensure that framerates go up for all games in all situations, they would need to boost CPU also. This is especially important for PSVR games that NEED to hit high [sometimes obscenely high] framerates, all the time.

Do some research before you go into fantasy land. The fury x is 8.6 TFLOPS GPU.

That's almost 5 times stronger than the ps4.

69 fps on 1080p vs 44 fps on 4k. You didn't think that was suspicious? Seems 100% cpu limited at 1080p. Or the game scales like shit at low resolutions.

Also the 270x is about 50% better than the ps4 gpu. 2.69 TFLOPS vs 1.84 TFLOPS

 

[dr_rus]

Just a random exploration...


PS4 currently has ~270X level of performance [in reality it is bit below it because it has 2 less CUs and lower clocks, but architecture is the same]. This fits nicely with current state of things since PS4 is indeed there at 1080p30 in this particular game at great visual settings.

Now, if we can believe that Polaris is indeed 2.5x of the 28nm GCN, move to a 14nm APU would enable PS4K to remain at the same power level [even more if they adopt power levels of launch PS4] but gain tremendous rendering boost, more than FuryX! In this particular game it can achieve ~44fps at 4K when using good CPU [and no, we clearly don't need 4X GPU performance to jump from 1080p to 4K].

Of course, boosting GPU will help only in GPU-limited scenarios. To ensure that framerates go up for all games in all situations, they would need to boost CPU also. This is especially important for PSVR games that NEED to hit high [sometimes obscenely high] framerates, all the time.

It doesn't work like this. The perf/watt improvement from a new process always mean that you'll get less watts for the same performance, not that you'll get the same increase in performance on the old watts. So when AMD says that Polaris will have 2.5x perf/watt increase they mean that some chip with Fury X level of performance will consume 2.5x less energy. Performance increase is a completely different beast as the energy efficiency always go down with higher performance figures. You can't just apply 2.5x to 300 series performance to see where Polaris and Vega GPUs will end up.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Also if Polaris 10 isn't basically PS4 GPU @14nm & 2X the CUs why is AMD making a DirectX11 GPU in 2016?

Eh, unless AMD wants to screw the pooch, they have to keep D3D11. D3D12 does not supplant D3D11. It offers devs the chance to speak directly to the GPU for more advanced programming if they want. Otherwise, they are free to use D3D 11.X to use the GPU standard features from D3D12.X. Proper term is called feature set levels. Still, the key point is D3D12 does not replace D3D11. It is D3D11 with a low level interface.

 

[AmyS]

In Theory: Will future consoles share identical tech specs?
Choices are limited when AMD is the only game in town.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...oles-share-identical-hardware-specs-in-theory

With the full hardware specification for the PlayStation Neo out in the open, several questions spring to mind, principally - why now: as the impending arrival of the Nintendo NX caused a rethink at Sony headquarters? And perhaps more curiously, how is Microsoft going to respond?

The way things look right now, it seems that the biggest winner of the upcoming console three-way is AMD. After all, the chances are that the technology of each new piece of hardware features the same core CPU and GPU components produced by the same engineers. Which begs the question - at the technological nuts and bolts level, are we going to end up with three almost identical new consoles? And is that such a bad thing?

Nintendo, Microsoft and indeed Sony itself will be looking at the phenomenon that is PlayStation 4, wondering why it was so successful. Part of the formula is undoubtedly the strength of the core technology. Looking back, Nielsen polling data suggested that "better resolution" was the number one reason buyers purchased PlayStation 4 over its competition. On the one hand, that nugget of data may seem quite unbelievable but on the other, consider this - given two extremely similar pieces of hardware sold at similar price-points with much the same library of software, which would you buy? "Better resolution" may well be the closest the survey had to a response highlighting the spec differential.

And with the upcoming current-gen redux, you can be sure that Microsoft - and perhaps even Nintendo - will not want to be hamstrung by lower-spec hardware when the possibility exists for a competitor to produce more powerful kit at the same price. That said, by and large, developers have done a good job adapting to the differences between PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. 900p resolution works effectively in most cases as a 1080p surrogate, while mostly subtle reductions in visual effects quality mostly go by unnoticed. And of course, the 30fps cap in the majority of console titles is a great leveller. As things stand, we only really have one game that allows itself to run on both systems identically, with an unlocked frame-rate - Io Interactive's Hitman, quite possibly the closest thing we actually have to a current-gen hardward benchmark.

The situation actually looks fairly moribund on the CPU side. With its upcoming Zen CPU chips seemingly aimed at the server market first with no sign of any low-power variant, it seems that the only viable x86 architecture available for a console is an upclocked version of the relatively weak Jaguar CPU we already have - exactly what Neo has. This makes things tricky for Microsoft. The move to x86 architecture in the current generation effectively rules out access to any other more powerful parts from other manufacturers. Other than AMD, only Intel can produce x86 processors - and moving to ARM for an Nvidia SoC would introduce more problems than it would solve. The only advance here would be to move to a 12-core Jaguar or Puma solution - possible, but may cause issues for the existing interconnect fabric.

In effect, unless Microsoft sinks a vast amount of money into a fully custom AMD design, or reverts to CPU and GPU cores from different manufacturers (highly unlikely), the best it can do is to produce a machine with a similar hardware spec to the Neo, or else sit back and wait a couple of years for more advanced hardware to come along. This does not seem likely.

I really wish one new console would go with Intel and Nvidia so there'd be more competition in the console space, but that's pretty damn unlikely, given the costs of the original Xbox GPU and PS3 RSX GPU.

 

[serversurfer]

In Theory: Will future consoles share identical tech specs?
Choices are limited when AMD is the only game in town.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...oles-share-identical-hardware-specs-in-theory



I really wish one new console would go with Intel and Nvidia so there'd be more competition in the console space, but that's pretty damn unlikely, given the costs of the original Xbox GPU and PS3 RSX GPU.

Aren't AMD banking pretty heavily on consoles in general? Why is it assumed they wouldn't make a low-power variant of their new CPU available? Just because they haven't announced it yet? Wouldn't they leave that for their very important console clients to do at the appropriate time?

 

[amstradcpc]

Aren't AMD banking pretty heavily on consoles in general? Why is it assumed they wouldn't make a low-power variant of their new CPU available? Just because they haven't announced it yet? Wouldn't they leave that for their very important console clients to do at the appropriate time?

You are right.The best customers take always the priority.Look at TSMC and Apple allocating always the first orders in a new process node.

 

[Lister]

Yeap I checked... fixing

Thanks

I thought Carmack had sais that re-projecting is always good? That even at 120hz reprojection can improve latency in head movement.

 

[KawabataSan]

you will maybe hear more this month

there is now the presentation that dev have

so they may share with media

 

[Audioboxer]

you will maybe hear more this month

there is now the presentation that dev have

so they may share with media

Calling the hype police to come and protect me.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Aren't AMD banking pretty heavily on consoles in general? Why is it assumed they wouldn't make a low-power variant of their new CPU available? Just because they haven't announced it yet? Wouldn't they leave that for their very important console clients to do at the appropriate time?

Yep. AMD WILL accommodate Sony and MS with customized Zen CPU's if they ask(which they probably already have). They aren't going to leave them high and dry considering how good they have been to them already.

I heard that AMD gave both Sony and MS great deals on their original 8th gen components

 

[AmyS]

Driving the move to new hardware is the availability of the 14nm FinFET production process, allowing for a 2x increase in transistor density compared to the 28nm chips found in PS4 and Xbox One. Processor clock-speeds can be improved too - hence the 2.1GHz Jaguar cores in Neo vs PS4's 1.6GHz, plus the 911MHz GPU speed, a curiously arbitrary 111MHz increase over the older hardware. But the key point here is that new AMD architectures are rolling out in step with new fabrication technologies, effectively meaning that innovations in hardware will roll out alongside the means to cost-effectively shrink transistors.

If the mid-gen console refresh is commercially successful, we should expect new hardware with each major node refresh - 14nm will be followed by 10nm, but it seems that 7nm will be the next major step for high-end graphics hardware. Factoring in the inevitable delays, plus the wait for these processes to become commercially viable, it suggests that new console hardware could arrive at three to four year intervals - and as long as AMD is in pole position with all platform holders, the cycle of very similar hardware manifesting in all platforms could persist for a long time to come.

Of course, the question is to what extent a commonality in hardware is actually a bad thing. After all, a level playing field in spec means an easier time for developers, while the platform holders can concentrate elsewhere on services and features that make their consoles distinct and unique. And that's why it's the NX that we're particularly eager to see. Assuming Nintendo has chosen similar parts to Sony (not a foregone conclusion - remember that the smaller, less capable Polaris 11 should still handily outperform PS4), criticisms of under-powered tech will be a thing of the past. But perhaps more importantly, Nintendo has a proven track record of handing in distinctive hardware designs where the concept trumps the importance of the raw horsepower available.

There's a good chance that new Xbox hardware of some description will manifest at E3. The form it will take - a new console with a hardware boost, or a 'slim' revamp of the existing Xbox One - remains to be seen. But if it is the former, it presents an interesting challenge for Microsoft: can it beat the Neo spec, and assuming it does end up looking very similar, what else can the platform holder offer to challenge PlayStation's supremacy?

Hopefully 7nm consoles in 2020 - PlayStation Next / PS5 ~ Zen + 10TF GPU + cheap HBM2 by that time - $399.

 

[RoboPlato]

you will maybe hear more this month

there is now the presentation that dev have

so they may share with media

I need it. I need MOAR

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I'm kind of thinking that the PS4K won't use Polaris simply because it'll screw binary compatibility with older PS4 games. It'll be a custom 7970 or it'll literally be 2x PS4 GPUs on the one SoC.

 

[AmyS]

It's interesting that AMD possibly could not have 100% binary compatibility going from Southern Islands / GCN 1.0 (or 1.1 ?) in PS4 to Polaris.

 

[RoboPlato]

It's interesting that AMD possibly could not have 100% binary compatibility going from Southern Islands / GCN 1.0 (or 1.1 ?) in PS4 to Polaris.

Isn't Polaris still a GCN evolution?

 

[napata]

Hopefully 7nm consoles in 2020 - PlayStation Next / PS5 ~ Zen + 10TF GPU + cheap HBM2 by that time - $399.

We haven't even moved to 14nm after 4 years so this seems highly unlikely. We'll be lucky to get 10nm by 2020.

 

[MuchoMalo]

We haven't even moved to 14nm after 4 years so this seems highly unlikely. We'll be lucky to get 10nm by 2020.

Well 10nm phones will launch next year, if that means anything.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Isn't Polaris still a GCN evolution?

From what I've read, Polaris is quite a bit different from GCN.

 

[MuchoMalo]

From what I've read, Polaris is quite a bit different from GCN.

No, it's 4th-gen GCN officially, They did change quite a few things, though.

 

[Duxxy3]

I'm kind of thinking that the PS4K won't use Polaris simply because it'll screw binary compatibility with older PS4 games. It'll be a custom 7970 or it'll literally be 2x PS4 GPUs on the one SoC.

Pretty much a 280x. About the level I've been expecting.

 

[serversurfer]

No, it's 4th-gen GCN officially, They did change quite a few things, though.

What's been changed since GCN ~2?

 

[ZoyosJD]

The same or similar hardware are in AMD APUs, the XB1 and for sure in Carizzio and the new VR dGPUs. OpenVX calls can use this hardware.

I speculated that GTA would use this hardware (OpenVX had just been released by Khronos) and I was wrong. Why didn't Sony provide APIs to this hardware including True Audio with developers still using a CPU for Audio...why a little over a 1 year wait; because there were too few platforms supporting it and easy game ports to PCs wouldn't want to use the new and rare hardware. If this is true then AMD and Microsoft will support this about October too. This hardware (Xtensa accelerators) can also support HEVC, and parts of the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge.

I believe that Sony has limited developers access to the accelerators as they are already being used extensively for multimedia and background tasks that my already be running separately and simultaneously with games (e.g. spotify, party chat, etc.).

I don't see the audio accelerators as a way to improve game performance, but a way to ensure multimedia doesn't impact bottom line performance. While upscaling is a slightly sightly different story as only one image can be displayed, there is potential for most of the DPU being assigned to background tasks for OS general use and responsiveness.

 

[kyser73]

Calling the hype police to come and protect me.

I need it. I need MOAR

It's Sony's DevCon event - it was mentioned by PK in the Kotaku article.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

you will maybe hear more this month

there is now the presentation that dev have

so they may share with media

Pre-order has been pre-ordered. We are now in the age of greatness.

Looking forward to news

 

[DieH@rd]

It's interesting that AMD possibly could not have 100% binary compatibility going from Southern Islands / GCN 1.0 (or 1.1 ?) in PS4 to Polaris.

As long as API remains the same, compability should be retained.

Changes on the hardware level will be handled by driver/GPU schedulers.

 

[belmonkey]

I'm kind of thinking that the PS4K won't use Polaris simply because it'll screw binary compatibility with older PS4 games. It'll be a custom 7970 or it'll literally be 2x PS4 GPUs on the one SoC.

Wouldn't the GPU have to have a 256 or 512 bit bus for 8gb ram though (or does that not matter with an APU)? Also, would they really bother with a Gpu not based on a (cut down) variant of another? I really can't see the ps4k's Gpu being anything other than Polaris-based.

 

[Kudo]

I hope they show it off this month if there's some event cause I'm really interested in seeing the design. Maybe E3 for public?

 

[kyser73]

I hope they show it off this month if there's some event cause I'm really interested in seeing the design. Maybe E3 for public?

10th May is the DevCon event

 

[Kudo]

10th May is the DevCon event

Would assume they won't show the consumer version of the console there, probably more on the technical side?

 

[Ryoku]

Just a random exploration...


PS4 currently has ~270X level of performance [in reality it is bit below it because it has 2 less CUs and lower clocks, but architecture is the same]. This fits nicely with current state of things since PS4 is indeed there at 1080p30 in this particular game at great visual settings.

I wouldn't use that as a reference to the PS4's power since it would imply that the PS4 is as powerful or more powerful than a GTX770 when in reality it doesn't even come close to that (or even GTX680). Generally speaking, the GTX770 is equivalent to 7970Ghz or 280X.

 

[AmyS]

As long as API remains the same, compability should be retained.

Changes on the hardware level will be handled by driver/GPU schedulers.

That could be.

On the other hand, just because AMD never produced a Southern Islands GPU with exactly 36 CUs doesn't mean they could not have easily done that via semi-custom, for an APU for Sony.

 

[DieH@rd]

That could be.

On the other hand, just because AMD never produced a Southern Islands GPU with exactly 36 CUs doesn't mean they could not have easily done that via semi-custom, for an APU for Sony.

They won't create GPU with exactly 36 CUs. Same as with PS4 APU, 18CUs are in use and 2 CUs are there for redundancy and higher yields. If any of the CUs are not operational, they can turn them off.

If they go with Polaris, 40CU part [which will come out for PC use] will most likely also end up inside PS4K APU.

 

[DavidDesu]

I hope they show it off this month if there's some event cause I'm really interested in seeing the design. Maybe E3 for public?

Do we expect a radical departure from the design language of the PS4? Considering how much they don't want to paint this as a PS5 and rather a PS4.5 I see it looking very similar, maybe even identical with some little flare of colour or something to differentiate.

I actually rather like the sleek slab of the PS4, if they make it smaller I would be all for that. Hopefully more USB slots and my biggest desire beyond the specs increase is that they also improve the streaming/video clip saving ability. Higher bit-rate 1080p60 video recording and streaming would be fantastic (and help show off PS4 visuals from shared clips, the current shared clips look terrible versus the native experience).

 

[E-Cat]

We haven't even moved to 14nm after 4 years so this seems highly unlikely. We'll be lucky to get 10nm by 2020.

Well, it's not like there wasn't a node between 28nm and 14/16nm. It was called 20nm, but it was not a good node for discrete GPUs. A situation like that hasn't really come up before, so I don't know how likely it is to repeat. But I think it had something to do with needing to move to FinFET for better thermals, so that's now taken care of.

We know for a fact that TSMC has game console clients for 7nm. CC transcript:

"Our N7 [=7nm] adoption is very strong, with customers ranging from mobile GPU, game console, FPGA, network processors and other consumer product applications. We have more than 20 customers in intensive design engagement with us and expect to have 15 customer tape-outs in 2017. The volume production of N7 will start from first half 2018.".

That means discrete GPUs on 7nm, which I would expect in the late 2019-early 2020 time frame. Before that there is 10nm, which is evidently going to be a short node. But if they're going to make 10nm GPUs, those will come out in 2018.

So, if you think "we'll be lucky to get 10nm by 2020", you're greatly misinformed.

 

[AmyS]

They won't create GPU with exactly 36 CUs. Same as with PS4 APU, 18CUs are in use and 2 CUs are there for redundancy and higher yields. If any of the CUs are not operational, they can turn them off.

If they go with Polaris, 40CU part [which will come out for PC use] will most likely also end up inside PS4K APU.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification, I forgot about the redundancy factor.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I might actually get a 'PS4' due to this, good move Sony!

Now just make some worthwhile games. So far i have UC4 and ICO 2 on my list, and those aren't even available yet

Maybe I will get the Morpheus - Neo combo pack if I'm feeling flush!

 

[Fafalada]

Changes on the hardware level will be handled by driver/GPU schedulers.

Not how it works on consoles. And inevitably APIs will offer extended features(if any) as well, but that at least would be opt-in only.

 

[kyser73]

Would assume they won't show the consumer version of the console there, probably more on the technical side?

Yup - I would imagine they'll be attempting to keep the press focus on PSVR, perhaps to the extent of not officially allowing any PS4Neo stuff out, but tacitly encouraging it and possibly even trying to frame the developer narrative a bit.

I know it sounds tin-foil, but the timing and above all the content of the leaks - the first round as reported via Kotaku and later rounded out here by Osiris, then the really big GB & EG/DF leaks which covered a lot of the key areas of discussion arising from the first 'round'.

So my bet is whatever comes out of DevCon will, logically, be related to the developer side which remained a big question mark for many. This way, they whittle down the objections until you get down to the last few - I feel second class, I feel forced to buy this, this is a punch in the face for early adopters - which are essentially all feels rather than hard objections, and these can be marketed out or ignored as many of those people will see Horizon running on it and go 'Holy living shit, I want that NOW!'.

 

[BKK]

In Theory: Will future consoles share identical tech specs?
Choices are limited when AMD is the only game in town.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...oles-share-identical-hardware-specs-in-theory





I really wish one new console would go with Intel and Nvidia so there'd be more competition in the console space, but that's pretty damn unlikely, given the costs of the original Xbox GPU and PS3 RSX GPU.

Same cpu + gfx wasn't unusual in the past. I think that MSX, Colecovision, SG-1000, and Sord M5 all shared the same or at least extremely similar CPU and VDP. I think it's inevitable when using essentially off the shelf parts, or at most semi-custom ones that multiple systems end up with the same or very similar solutions for price/power ratio.

 

[mckmas8808]

That means discrete GPUs on 7nm, which I would expect in the late 2019-early 2020 time frame. Before that there is 10nm, which is evidently going to be a short node. But if they're going to make 10nm GPUs, those will come out in 2018.

So, if you think "we'll be lucky to get 10nm by 2020", you're greatly misinformed.

This is such GREAT news for the PS5, 2020 possiblities. 10TF GPU here we come!

 

[Mr. Pointy]

As long as API remains the same, compability should be retained.

Changes on the hardware level will be handled by driver/GPU schedulers.

Wouldn't the low-level GNM API be heavily optimised to the PS4's current GPU?

I'm just guessing here, but if the NEO had a Polaris GPU, which is GCN-based but has a fair number of differences, would there be problems with compatibility with games built using GNM?

 

[DeepEnigma]

you will maybe hear more this month

there is now the presentation that dev have

so they may share with media

Here is my veins... inject the sweet sweet nectar.