agreed. It's like this gen with PS3, where CELL (and specifically the SPEs) were used to effectively take some of the work away from the GPU, allowing the system to produce better graphics than the GPU on its own would have been capable of.
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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1
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agreed. It's like this gen with PS3, where CELL (and specifically the SPEs) were used to effectively take some of the work away from the GPU, allowing the system to produce better graphics than the GPU on its own would have been capable of.
on gpgpu and I guess this applys to both xb1 and ps4. Since devs (1st party sony and multiplats) already have experience with leveraging the cell's parellalization to make up for the ps3 gpu ... do those tools translate quickly to leveraging the gpu's compute to make up for the weaker cpus in the next gen systems? Again this is pretty techy and I dont know much about this aspect exactly so anyone who knows?
intuitively it seems it should be something similar but in reverse ... just wondering...
intuitively it seems it should be something similar but in reverse ... just wondering...
Apparently no talkie talkie. I can do that.
Justify yourself!
The reflections in Forza are very poor, they even reflect the HUD on screen onto the hood on the car, don't they?
phosphor112
Banned
I don't know if the tools would natively, maybe with some working from the ICE team or whatever. I'm sure they've worked on some tools to utilize it, whether from scratch or as an extension. Anyway, if nothing else was done to help them, they certainly have the knowledge and techniques to do that.
The environmental lighting is actually baked. But yea, I actually think the reflections in F5 look great. They might literally just be a duplication map of what's ahead, but it still achieves a fairly realistic look without too much of a hit on resources. I'd imagine many racers will use this same technique for reflections this gen.
At the moment, yes it does also reflect the player UI and notifications ahead lol, but hopefully they'll sort that before release.
that will be fixed. and the reflections, aside from that, look good
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Any explanation for this? I kow Senjitsu sent some 'insider info' to Bish. Seems like Bish was not best impressed.
They may fix it and it may look good but I certainly wouldn't call it "technically impressive" like the poster I quoted.
mangochutney
Member
Yes - and I'd also go along with the notion the Forza 5 is, graphically, Forza 4 with better IQ using many current gen techniques, whereas the competing racer on the PS4 is using more complex tech that will hopefully become standard for next-gen titles. F5 does look good, but not sure how Turn 10 are technical wizards...
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
And the gloating of the bannings by some posters. Yes artist. I'm looking at you was disgusting.
See;
We've moved on from that and made some good discussion after that. But no, you continue to be bitter and get the thread offtrack.
SHADES
Member
I don't think MS can afford to tbh, whilst say the top 5% of potential customers know & understand the differences (GAF members/lurker s maybe?) there's many thousands that don't & this is where MS muddying the waters helps claw back customers prior to launch.
Also we have the Internet drum constantly banging PS4 is better without Sony's input, if MS didn't try and explain away the differences that drum would only grow larger so for now its in their interest to claim parity at any opportunity.
LittleJohnny
Banned
After all the replies from previous threads you would think you'd understand what that means. smh. The lighting in Forza is 100% dynamic, the only thing different is that the global illumination system has a static light source, no day/night transitions during races but the lighting and shadows behave exactly the same way they would in DC if the sun stayed in the same place, visually there's no difference.
Reflections are lovely:
In car shadows behave just as they do in DC:
I think Penello sparked this discussion on plenty of occasions when there was really no major outlet claiming a spec superiority that needed to be addressed.
You are right though, MS may be banking on casuals eating up these numbers.
After all the replies from previous threads you would think you'd understand what that means. smh. The lighting in Forza is 100% dynamic, the only thing different is that the global illumination system has a static light source, no day/night transitions during races but the lighting and shadows behave exactly the same way they would in DC if the sun stayed in the same place, visually there's no difference.
Reflections are lovely:
In car shadows behave just as they do in DC:
That is baked dude. And no, the lighting in F5 is not 100% dynamic. It's only dynamic with respect to the vehicles themselves. The actual environmental lighting is fully baked, that is, pre-calculated and mapped. Shadows on the environments always in the same places etc. Some of it hasn't actually been baked in realistically, since many environmental shadows are completely missing (buildings casting accurate shadows, rail guards, lamp posts in areas etc). You also find the clamped highlights and faked sun don't always correlate with the actual lighting of the environments or vehicle, which further highlights the notion that environmental lighting is pre-baked.
And yes, I agree, the reflections look great, even if it is a slightly more cost effective way of producing them. Using cost effective measures to get attractive results is nothing to frown upon. If it looks great it looks great irrespective of whether the technique used to get there was as demanding or not. Only downside really of F5 for me is the baked lighting and lack of dynamic time of day and night racing.
I think one of the more tech savvy GAf'ers on here mentioned that they just need to duplicate the image at an earlier pass in the rendering stage. So it is doable. The implication was that duplicating it at the stage they did was slightly lazy and thrown together. I think they could fix it tbh. Whether they do is another question.
phosphor112
Banned
I don't think it'll be sorted out. They'd have to do different buffers, which would either get a delayed reflection or it would delay the final buffer.
I say, for now, it's "good enough."
SHADES
Member
Yeah, I'm not suggesting they're responding to anything specific just seems part of the marketing offensive in play from messer's Penello & Hryb with casuals being the target audience.
LittleJohnny
Banned
WTH? If the sun (Light source) remains in the same place all the time, so will the environment shadows... I'm not sure what you're arguing... The only difference visually between what DC is doing is that it doesn't have day/night transitions, the sun remains in the same place, therefore the shadows cast by objects hit by the sun will remain where they are, after all the sun never moved, duh. The only thing that matters is the perspective of the driver, inside his car the sun is moving, the reflections are moving the shadows are moving, all dynamically and in real time.
Like taking an abject and moving it around a lamp. Rotate the object, turn it, spin it and the lighting/shadows will behave accordingly and cast around the room and into and around the object. The existing shadows from other objects in the room will stay where they are unless you move the lamp.
Visually it's exactly the same effect, the only thing different is the moving light source which is needed for day/night transitions, then the shadows in the environment have to be moved dynamically or it would look ridiculous, but since it's not moving in Forza, it looks the way it should, so please stop arguing semantics.
phosphor112
Banned
That's what I meant when I said buffer. Pass is the correct terming though. Anyway, if it were a 30fps game, I think it would be of no problem. But assuming the HUD is the last thing put on the screen. They'd still have to take the full screen pass, and then apply it to the car and apply the UI within 1 frame. Unless they are ok with a delayed reflection.
I was thinking they can use the display planes to create a barrier between the reflection and the hud, but it seems like they already do that. The HUD from the screen, like the speedometer and the lap times don't show in the reflection. It's the HUD elements that are in 3D space that cause issues... the ones floating over cars. If they can somehow do a z-buffer calculation of where the UI should go on the 3D plane and then apply it to the HUD plane... it would work. I'm not sure how possible that is though or how much time that would take.
I think you misunderstood me. There are some aspects of lighting on the environment that are actually missing altogether. As in, not where they should be, coupled with a few other titbits leads to the conclusion that the lighting (shadows) was baked at an earlier stage. That is, they had it set up, put the sun in a fixed position and then recorded shadow and light position for the environment, and after that it's fixed. However, after that I think they play around with sun positioning for artistic effect (the sun actually moves around for artistic effect based on where they want you to see it, where they want specific high contrast scenes, flares, overcasts etc). This shift in sun positioning affects the lighting of the vehicles, cockpits etc dynamically, but not always the lighting and shadowing of the environments, because it has all already been pre-baked based on a previous fixed position, whereas later in the design process they shift around the sun, as mentioned for artistic affect, and it doesn't always line up perfectly.
That's how you know environmental lighting is baked.
That is indeed correct. I also saw you point this out and agreed, but was met with vehement defence lol. Evidently it turned out to be true, as was evidenced by the screenshots (and now videos) anyway.
ethomaz
Banned
I'm not sure what you guys are saying but the shadows have to move related to the object position too... not just the light source.
And I agree the lighting in Forza 5 didn't change from Forza 4... backed. But that's not a bad thing... I don't know why the people call that a bad thing, it is not impressive in technical terms but it is beautiful.
PS. Am I the only to think the reflexions in Forza 5 makes the cars looks like toys and not real-life? maybe it is the art direction or color palette but I don't like that :-(
phosphor112
Banned
Nib already addressed this, but the lighting isn't dynamic. I called it when they FIRST showed screenshots. I got shit on for being a "troll", and then it turns out they have locked time of day settings.. because it's baked. The cars self shadow and properly cast shadows based on the position of the sun, but the environment shadow maps are exactly the same from Forza 1 - 4. They SLAP the shadow map direction on top of the cars. Even if a fence or wall should be casting a shadow on the side of a car, it'll appear on top of it.
Pop in any Forza. Get in an SUV or a Ford Transit car (something tall) go next to a wall on the side of a track that has the shadow casting on the inside. Park the car in that shadow, and even though the wall is about... 3 feet high, the shadow will appear ON TOP of the car. It's doing the exact same thing in FM5.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
baked lighting limits eviromental destruction/changes and day et night cycles etc... . not iheretly bad thig if game do not need them.
edit. no other gets car paint shaders as well as polyphony... i have seen some pretty bad ones on drive club and that is next gen show piece for me.
you are confusing the terms "journalist" and "stooge"
Reflections are lovely:
That looks off as fuck. How is the road nearby the car supposed to reflect on the bonnet.
Are there any links to back this up...I have a fly at work I need to squat! lol
All games have cheap tricks when it comes to rendering. You could argue that games are nothing but cheap tricks. Where's the ray tracing?
Sword Of Doom
Member
Non of the MS launch window games are particularly impressive. We have yet to see what Ryse will actually look like at 900p
The actual HUD is not reflected. Names hovering above cars are reflecting because they are part of the 3D scene. It's a non-issue.
boredandlazy
Member
Now I've seen it, I cannot unsee it...
phosphor112
Banned
Because it is off as fuck. Lol, the reflection is basically a flipped image of the 3D render.
Laughing_Man__
Neo Member
So what is the update? Or are we still going in circles?
HA! See what I did there? Forza? Racing cars?...Circles?
HA! See what I did there? Forza? Racing cars?...Circles?
And why shouldnt it? Its all about the angle. This car has hood going in downward angle to the road and when You see road it additionally brakes, so hood goes even closer to the road, increasing the angle.
There is nothing wrong with this reflection.
You can see road here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfRFDKntLcM&feature=player_detailpage#t=38
And car in op has more lowered hood.
Another example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXos2BpVZeE
Never saw this before, thanks for the link. Not a whole lot new in there but interesting nonetheless. It puts the whole 'supercharged PC architecture' in a more meaningful context.
Good example. I think this settles the issue with the angle of reflection.
Dictator93
Member
The Screen Space reflections seen in FM5 are definitely not common in the current gen consoles.
I cannot even think of a game that uses them. Most games did the dual render target thing or cube maps (IBLs).
You don't see the huge difference between your vids and what you see in the gif? Namely, stuff on the road (like arrows) a few meters in front of the car reflecting, as well as a barely deformed mirror image of the environment. Looks othing like this in your examples.
phosphor112
Banned
Yeah, I guess you're right. That first link is a good example. The second one, not so much. The camera is angled too far down and too far forward. It allows more to be seen across the front curve of the car.
Dirt 2 and 3 used them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32SbHdtxSrA
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Read my explanation? The forza car has much lower angle to the road and its braking hard and that increases angle even further.
Your "explanation" goes against a thing called physics.
You provided examples yourself but they don't look anything like this. Watch the videos again. Stuff in the distance is "squashed" on the reflection. Not identical/blown up like in Forza (eg the arch thing). The "angle" thing is pure speculation on your part, unless you've gone and measured them yourself.
So unless the car's bonnet in Forza is like reaching 45˚ inclination and is a roughly flat surface, it shouldn't look like this at all.
2dshmuplover
Banned
You don't honestly think that will happen in the final game. Just like they'll clean up the pop-up in the mirror. Judging on FM4 alone the reflections will be very high quality.
You really dont see how braking is pushing hood closer to road?
My examples do not look exactly like in Forza, because they are in different condition, from different cars, but in both You can clearly see the road and even lines on the road.
Maybe You'll provide example of the same car in real life?
Yes, it does. The Maseratti in your video breaks pretty hard several times too, yet you don't see such a 1:1 reflection of things that close to the car.
This has nothing to do with different conditions or cars. Reflection off a convex surface, especially coming from objects in the distance, at that angle, will look very squashed. It's very obvious in both videos you've linked to.
Essentially, too much stuff from the environment reflects, covering a fraction of the hood that is too long, and it shouldn't be such a "mirror" image at all.
your exactly right. Its not a real world reflection, its probably to expensive. the render of the background is held in a buffer then projected on the hood the car. From the angle of the refection it looks like they pull the image from the player camera view. Its a hack but everybody uses it. I think if they fish eyed the reflection it would probably hide it more. anyways my 2 cents
The point isn't what will be in the final game, it's that it shows the method of reflection used and how it is not "technically impressive"
I have no Idea what this whole thing has to do with the Balance of the XB1 to be honest, other than showing that Forza has to fall short of "next-gen techniques" to maintain 60fps.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Have you gone and measured it yourself? It looks fine to us, so now the burden is on you to go and measure to prove it's off... smh.
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