Oh. Well. Let's not change anything ever then.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
European Court of Human Rights: Ban on Muslim full-face veil legal
- Thread starter Occam
- Start date
You could make the case that this ban is an institutional oppression of women as well.
You remove it when you board trains, enter airports, walk indoors, nice weather, etc? Not the same
CampbellzSoup
Member
So what are you advocating ...?? Just allow women to continue to wear this to be oppressed because it makes their husband ok with it..?? The fuck? I thought we champion women's rights.
And that case would be thrown out of court as being idiotic as the European Court of Human Rights has just done - to their eternal credit.
Pankratous
Member
Doubt there's many people who are oppressed and forced to wear that, either.
Definitely not the same.
Tough shit. This is Europe, not North Korea.
Stop inhibiting the rights of individuals.
If governments and society are so intent on helping Muslim women who are trapped in abusive relationships where the veil is forced upon them, they'd be spending money on outreach programs and giving them the voice they deserve, not using them as political footballs to score points with the less mentally stable parts of the electorate.
MistakenMobius
Member
Yeah I am surprise at the number of European that are so willing to bend over to accommodate shitty belief.
I though the same 10 years ago when Erdogan arrived in power.
Today well turkey is turning bad forcing my dad to leave.
n00bsauce87
Member
You've never been to USA then. That whole freedom of religion is a thing and would have been laughed out of the supreme court with a unanimous decision
Again, the government it literally limiting women's rights in this situation.
I mainly wonder because of the wording presented in the original article here, as even a regular face mask can be used to make yourself unidentifiable by hiding your face in part. Wonder how strict the law really is here:
Doesn't mean they're right
Pretty much.
Imo, seeing each others face in public should be required by law, so Niqab and Burka should be illegal, im okay with Hijab.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I dont know. I don't really see the harm in people wearing them. People should be free to wear what they want
Pankratous
Member
Except that doesn't work because these woman are conditioned to obey to the point where they absolutely won't say anything.
Muffin1611
Banned
No, regardless of what words you put in my mouth, I'd rather have more support for women who choose to defy their oppressors, making it more attractive. In what forms, the people making the laws can figure out. More institutions to house them if they choose to flee from home etc.
Not ban a stupid piece of cloth so they stay at home and nothing changes except the public not seeing them anymore.
Etrian Oddity
Member
Kralamoonard
Member
Holy crap, it really seems you simply can't wrap your head around of a Muslim woman who wants to wear something out of her own choice (for a reason such as religious piety)...no, it can't be that. Here's a shocker: not everyone pertains to the same world views or concept of freedom as yours.
Here's an example of a woman for example who who invited to the Queen's tea party in the U.K...but no, she must have been forced by her husband to attend and had no independent thinking in choosing her career choice.
Like stop being so sheltered and narrow minded. I bet you haven't even personally talked to a woman wearing a Niqab. You're trying to come up with any excuse to belittle her own decision in this matter. But of course, if she wanted to wear something more 'Western' it must have been her own choice to become 'empowered'. The double standards are so obvious it's funny the irony is missed on many.
Here's a simple solution: let people choose to wear what they want because attempting to 'liberate' woman who you think are being forced to is making any woman situation (who actually is forced) even worse and making life miserable for the others. It's selfish and introduces the logic that everything not conforming to my own set of normalcy or standards is automatically inferior without any critical thinking.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I will never be in favor of banning any attire in public.
Now many of these women won't be able to even leave the house.
This ban is bigoted irrational and silly. All face masks apply? Is there a rational standard?
The veil is sexist and wrong. And women are pressured and coerced into wearing it. But there's no rational standard to determine that. Instead the law blanketly removes choice.
Now many of these women won't be able to even leave the house.
This ban is bigoted irrational and silly. All face masks apply? Is there a rational standard?
The veil is sexist and wrong. And women are pressured and coerced into wearing it. But there's no rational standard to determine that. Instead the law blanketly removes choice.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Championing women's right to be oppressed.
MistakenMobius
Member
Prostitution is illegal in France....
As a Norwegian, I want a nationwide ban off Niqab and Burka in all public spaces and public workplaces in Norway.
Agreed.
Sad that none else than Corbyn in politics (of those I know of) has the balls to stand up against SA.
Agreed.
Sad that none else than Corbyn in politics (of those I know of) has the balls to stand up against SA.
Because there are no women wearing this by their choice right?
I'm asking if you agree.
Captain Smoker
Member
Your post falls apart because everything about it is a strawman.
I can also understand that people believe in a flat earth or that they need to blow themselves up and kill others to get in heaven. (well, I can understand how they get conditioned to believe this)
So what? Doesn't mean it's the "right thing" or beneficial to society from my point of view.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I'm ok with workplaces having dress codes.
Restrictions in public? Public dress codes?
That's authoritarian.
I think the issue is more profound than "Women will not be allowed to leave their homes". That's certainly a concern.
But i don't think we want to be a society where such women walking around with visible marks of oppression is tolerated.
(And yes, what is and what isn't oppression is up for debate, but i think there's broad historical justification for niqab\burka being so. The religious meaning can be kept with a hijab.)
But i don't think we want to be a society where such women walking around with visible marks of oppression is tolerated.
(And yes, what is and what isn't oppression is up for debate, but i think there's broad historical justification for niqab\burka being so. The religious meaning can be kept with a hijab.)
It would never have made it as far as the Supreme Court.
Pankratous
Member
Given how institutionalized it is, I'd put money on more oppressed women being forced to wear it then the very small minority of those who choose to wear it. And of those who 'choose', how many of them are conditioned to believe it is a choice?
Muffin1611
Banned
Stop accusing me of bullshit I didn't say.
Well, perhaps I've stated it more black and white than it is, and how I truly think about it. It's not like I'm not conflicted about it myself. I DO believe in religious freedom, although the idea in believing in something is foreign to me. But religious freedom has boundaries. For me, full face hiding clothing is over that boundary for a society that I wan't to live in. FWIW, I'm okay with headscarfs, while those could equally be seen as opressionistic tools, or archaic remnants of religion.
Nevertheless, true freedom is a fallacy. Every freedom has it's boundaries. I am, of course, also very much in favor of free speech, but I will not let people spouting hate speech abuse this freedom.
Nevertheless, true freedom is a fallacy. Every freedom has it's boundaries. I am, of course, also very much in favor of free speech, but I will not let people spouting hate speech abuse this freedom.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Both are signs of oppression.
So win the battle via oppression from government.
Makes sense!
n00bsauce87
Member
So would this also be banned in the EU? They are putting stuff on to cover their faces. I mean we can all agree that this is "morally" wrong and unacceptable in any society. I'm just curious on how deep does this ruling's well go.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Lets make better laws.
I believe this won't change much for whoever is opressed. They will still stay opressed. We are just swiping the opression under a rug. Nothing more.
Well we already did it with the finlandshette, because you could not see the peoples faces.
Article from the leader of the Norwegian Labour party who (hopefully) will be the next prime minister here:
No to niqab and burka in Norwegian school - the face must be fully visible
His Majesty
Banned
A necessary step towards insuring better integration in the future.
boiled goose
good with gravy
We already did something wrong doesn't make the second wrong thing better lol.
So the ruling has a rational standard right?
No one can cover their face in public?
Or does it only apply to Muslim women? How is Muslim mess and gender determined?
BlackLagoon
Member
Uh, it's perfectly possible for a law to have unintended consequences, like for example 17-year-old couples sexting each other getting prosecuted for child porn. And depending on what other laws exist there might be limitations on how narrowly you can define a ban without conflicting with anti-discrimination legislation. Many parties all over Europe mulling such laws, I think it's very much in everybodys interest to dig into the exact details here as much as possible.
Uh... no? But before I started using it I often felt like shit for the next day or so, my lungs being full of phlegm and breathing took noticeably more effort, if spending any extended time outside in the cold. So having it on has significantly improved my quality of life.
Miles Quaritch
Member
We've liberated her as a society. Feels good.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Say someone has an immune disease and has to wear mask. Banned too?
His Majesty
Banned
Public dress codes are a thing in many countries, e.g. prohibition of nudity. Can't say I disagree.
There are always exceptions.
Miles Quaritch
Member
By forcing some Muslim women to stay at home?
Fuck them. And fuck everyone who's alright with it.
I guess 'Freedom of choice' and "Fight against oppression' has finally come with the asterisk 'so long it's in line with the eurocentric view that the global society should look like us. If they go against our ideal, fuck them and we don't care what happens to them. la la la WE DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN yeah'
I have personal account of being discriminated against and insulted because of my choice to wear the niqab. My mother was imprisoned back in her home country because she chose to wear the hijab, not even the niqab. I know a friend who was beaten up by her father because she chose to wear the niqab, and no one helped her because 'she was the one in the wrong'. Here, in UK. There's a lot of violence against the women in muslim communities because the men dictate how they should dress. If they want them to dress less, they should dress less. If they want them to dress more, they should dress more. And in neither cases should the women have a say in the matter. And guess what the white man (and woman, let's be fair, they're part of the problem too) these muslim men want to appease want?
And now that the court of HUMAN RIGHTS has given the ok to further bully these women, those who wore it because of personal reasons will rather stay at home than be part of the society, and those who were forced to do it will now be told to stay home by their fucktards patriarchs. And before you say why don't they tell the police, no the authorities don't care what these poor women go through. Someone I know went through violent domestic abuse (and she doesn't wear the niqab, by the way) and every single time she went to the authorities she was sent back to her abuser. She escaped to another country when she had four children and couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know whether her abuser followed her. To this day, she suffers from severe mental illnesses.
But you know, they're muslim women. At the end of the day they don't matter, let's make some more rules that work against them.
I guess 'Freedom of choice' and "Fight against oppression' has finally come with the asterisk 'so long it's in line with the eurocentric view that the global society should look like us. If they go against our ideal, fuck them and we don't care what happens to them. la la la WE DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN yeah'
I have personal account of being discriminated against and insulted because of my choice to wear the niqab. My mother was imprisoned back in her home country because she chose to wear the hijab, not even the niqab. I know a friend who was beaten up by her father because she chose to wear the niqab, and no one helped her because 'she was the one in the wrong'. Here, in UK. There's a lot of violence against the women in muslim communities because the men dictate how they should dress. If they want them to dress less, they should dress less. If they want them to dress more, they should dress more. And in neither cases should the women have a say in the matter. And guess what the white man (and woman, let's be fair, they're part of the problem too) these muslim men want to appease want?
And now that the court of HUMAN RIGHTS has given the ok to further bully these women, those who wore it because of personal reasons will rather stay at home than be part of the society, and those who were forced to do it will now be told to stay home by their fucktards patriarchs. And before you say why don't they tell the police, no the authorities don't care what these poor women go through. Someone I know went through violent domestic abuse (and she doesn't wear the niqab, by the way) and every single time she went to the authorities she was sent back to her abuser. She escaped to another country when she had four children and couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know whether her abuser followed her. To this day, she suffers from severe mental illnesses.
But you know, they're muslim women. At the end of the day they don't matter, let's make some more rules that work against them.
Pankratous
Member
Yeah.
There might be women who are negatively impacted by this and who feel they need to stay at home now, and that sucks, but they aren't a victim of this ruling, they are a victim of the religion being the way it is in the first place.
The religion (and men of the religion) need to adapt and stop oppressing.
TheRedSnifit
Member
So would this also be banned in the EU? They are putting stuff on to cover their faces. I mean we can all agree that this is "morally" wrong and unacceptable in any society. I'm just curious on how deep does this ruling's well go.
Is that headgear?
Come on, man.
There's no ruling yet, but there seems to be a consensus among most of the parties that if you are in a public space, you are required to show your full face, which means that niqab and burka should be illegal to use.
I see no wrong with making finlandshette illegal btw.
Just look at this thing, nobody should be allowed to walk around in public with it:
Would you extend this line of thought to abusive relationships outside of a religious context?