That's a fair point.
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Evolve Downloadable Content Plans Revealed
- Thread starter jelmerjt
- Start date
That's a fair point.
I know I was in the minority, but was actually looking forward to this one. It's hard to swallow DLC announcements containing a significant amount of content pre-release though. I like the idea of long term support, but I'm done with lite versions of a game so they can sell the rest a premium. So sad to see my childhood hobby being ruined like this.
falconxcrunner09
Member
Cancelling pre order this weekend. Just going to wait for a complete Edition. I thought Turtle Rock didn't want to split the community with paid DLC?
Lord of Castamere
Member
The community won't be split everyone will be able to play and matchmake together regardless of dlc owned.
This is just a hunch, but with the wasteland of launch debacles on "current gen" consoles is it possible we as gamers have wised up and pre-order sales are really in the tank now?
Hence why there are SO MANY eggs in the pre-order basket. Anyone who pre-orders anything after the messes we've seen the last 16 months at launch with AAA titles deserves what they get period.
What good is a pre-loaded exclusive if the game doesn't work online at launch? If Halo got fucked up (10 year old game), what confidence can any consumer have in an IP that is new? Especially a game that is totally online reliant from 2K Games Publisher that has an abysmal track record in online performance!! GTA and NBA2K to be specific.
Hence why there are SO MANY eggs in the pre-order basket. Anyone who pre-orders anything after the messes we've seen the last 16 months at launch with AAA titles deserves what they get period.
What good is a pre-loaded exclusive if the game doesn't work online at launch? If Halo got fucked up (10 year old game), what confidence can any consumer have in an IP that is new? Especially a game that is totally online reliant from 2K Games Publisher that has an abysmal track record in online performance!! GTA and NBA2K to be specific.
Mass Effect
Member
Well, I was on the fence about this game before, but now I know I can easily skip it without worry.
So thanks 2K for saving me money.
So thanks 2K for saving me money.
This is going to hurt competitive play though. There's a budding competitive community forming for this game(there's even a tournament happening when the PC open beta hits with 32 teams signed up). Some people won't want to buy all this expensive dlc so playable hunters/monsters will have to be limited in the rules for competitive play.
ArkkAngel007
Member
It still isn't. Players can still play with/against those utilizing DLC monsters and hunters.
__________________________________
I'll be waiting for a fairly steep discount/GOTY edition as well. Been pretty excited (and still am of the game itself) despite the attitude around GAF over it (who gives a shit if it wins game of show really?), but this is disgusting.
- Pre-load to win, now with exclusivity! Now, I know it isn't 'winning' necessarily, but if the beta was any indication it will be quite the grind to get to the last tier of hunters/monster. All because they want not just pre-orders, but the entire game copy's revenue up front.
- Originally, the talks with this dlc included those hunters that are, I assume, now part of the season pass sign up. Still somewhat steep of a price, but not too different from the norm with map packs and such. Again, all front loaded content in order to maximize revenue before the players can even access it.
- Speaking of prices, individual hunters are $7-8 individually (which is appaling of itself), but the monster and a skin set is $15? GTFO.
- All after having shown only one monster for nearly a year and a half, and having only just revealed mode other than hunt a couple months ago. For what it is it isn't anemic on content (beats out L4D), but who the hell knows or cares about all of it? Still people don't know that there's a campaign, can be played offline, the number of maps, etc despite that information being available. Just a total marketing fuck up. Only thing worse they could have done was not market at all a la' Sony's Vita team.
Lord of Castamere
Member
It's the same with any competitive game that has paid dlc though. The free maps actually put it a step above most.
Unlikely. This isn't the first game to give a substantial preorder bonus. Battlefield 3 had a free expansion back in 2011. If anything I'd guarantee preorders have increased since.
Memorabilia
Member
This went from my most anticipated upcoming title to nearly off the radar...
ultrazilla
Member
I'll wait a year or two when it's dumped on a Steam sale for $5.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Good to know that I'm keeping my money.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Man, I thought the amount of BL2 DLC was a ripoff. Fuck you 2K.
Funny, I didn't have too much interest in the game and felt that the amount of media out there for the game oversaturated my want for it. Now it's even less so.
Funny, I didn't have too much interest in the game and felt that the amount of media out there for the game oversaturated my want for it. Now it's even less so.
Nope. I'm out for DLC at these kinds of prices and avoiding games with so much planned for post release at additional cost.
There are plenty of games available content complete with no DLC or DLC that feels fine as expansion content and I shall vote with my wallet in their direction.
There are plenty of games available content complete with no DLC or DLC that feels fine as expansion content and I shall vote with my wallet in their direction.
So I am going to attempt to bring some reason to this thread. Probably won't work but I am going to try. I am going to explain to you guys why things are the way they are right now and try to bring some perspective.
First lets talk about game prices. It is no secret that the amount of time and money it takes to make a game has gone up exponentially since the SNES days of 2D sprites. Creating 3D models with animation, 3D worlds and all the online components takes a freaking ton of work. This leads to huge budgets but the price of games has actually DROPPED by a significant margin over the years. The price of an SNES game on launch day was $50 or $60 depending on the game. If you adjust for inflation that is about $80 - $95 in todays money. Most games now cost $60 which is about two thirds LOWER than they were in the SNES days. In short we are getting a HUGE discount right off the bat.
Now lets talk about DLC. Since game makers can't sell the games at a high enough price to make their money back they have to make that up in DLC. This obviously leads them to push DLC hard because they need it to sell or the game won't make enough money. One of the most well loved and respected games this generation is League of Legends. They have over 100 different DLC champions now, each costing roughly $7. If someone bought all of them they would have spent over $700. Yet people are ok with this. Sure, you can unlock them by playing the game but the vast majority of people don't have the time to spend to unlock all the characters. For most people, if they want to play a certain character the only option is the buy it and they do it all the time. Lets compare that to Evolve. They have 15 characters in the base game for $60. That is $4 each, cheaper than LoL, AND you get the rest of the game, all the modes, maps etc. The DLC characters, assuming you don't preorder and buy the season pass, are $35 for 5 characters which is $7 each, roughly the same as LoL. If you pre-order that drops the price to $20 for 5 characters, $4 each. Using a little math and rational thought you can see that these prices are very reasonable, especially if you pre-order.
A common misconception with DLC is that it is done before launch, put on the disc, and then they charge people to unlock it. I will give you guys a little glimpse into how the game development process works so you guys can understand why this is. A character's development generally starts with a design document and some concept art. From there it goes to modeling and programmers start working on prototype code using another model or sometimes just a sphere. After the model is done it goes to the animators to be animated. Once they are done the programmers hook up the model in game and get all the animations playing at the correct times. After that there is a lot of playtesting and balance work done. Then the AI needs to be done, if the game has bots. This whole process usually takes about 6 months, sometimes more. Marketing will usually start after the character is modeled. At that point they can start making cinematics and other promotional material. The announcement is made to "buy the DLC character!" but interally the character is most likely still 2-3 months from completion with lots of animation, playtesting, balancing and possibly AI to be done. Once all the content for the base game is done the build is sent to MS and Sony for approval. At this point DLC work has already started, with some of the models done and probably a prototype in place. A few weeks later they tell you that you weren't approved and give you a list of things to fix, then you fix them and resubmit. More weeks go by then they approve you and the game has gone 'gold' and starts being printed on discs. BUT the build they printed had the DLC character model on it! The download is only a new EXE and a few script files, thus very small, and people freak out because "they sold us DLC that was already on the disk!!!". The model was finished when the game was printed on discs, but it was MANY months from actually being finished.
So what about pre-orders? Most would say they are a scam to get you to shell out before the reviews hit. In fact they are something created by Gamestop and other retailers to help them judge demand and make sure they order enough copies. Do you notice that games hardly ever sell out anymore? It is because of pre-orders. Retailers are much better able to judge demand for a particular title if they push pre-orders. Retailers demand pre-order bonuses from developers to give people more incentive to pre-order. In exchange they create signage and other in-store marketing for your game. If you give them EXCLUSIVE pre-order bonuses then they will push your game for you even more. That is why so many games are doing pre-order bonuses, sometimes retailer exclusive ones, because it gives the title a LOT of cheap marketing. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with tricking people into buying bad games; that is what review embargoes are for!
I hope that this has been given you guys a small glimpse as to why things are the way they are. Maybe you can understand now why these things need to exist and not spew out so much unadulterated hate on developers that use them.
First lets talk about game prices. It is no secret that the amount of time and money it takes to make a game has gone up exponentially since the SNES days of 2D sprites. Creating 3D models with animation, 3D worlds and all the online components takes a freaking ton of work. This leads to huge budgets but the price of games has actually DROPPED by a significant margin over the years. The price of an SNES game on launch day was $50 or $60 depending on the game. If you adjust for inflation that is about $80 - $95 in todays money. Most games now cost $60 which is about two thirds LOWER than they were in the SNES days. In short we are getting a HUGE discount right off the bat.
Now lets talk about DLC. Since game makers can't sell the games at a high enough price to make their money back they have to make that up in DLC. This obviously leads them to push DLC hard because they need it to sell or the game won't make enough money. One of the most well loved and respected games this generation is League of Legends. They have over 100 different DLC champions now, each costing roughly $7. If someone bought all of them they would have spent over $700. Yet people are ok with this. Sure, you can unlock them by playing the game but the vast majority of people don't have the time to spend to unlock all the characters. For most people, if they want to play a certain character the only option is the buy it and they do it all the time. Lets compare that to Evolve. They have 15 characters in the base game for $60. That is $4 each, cheaper than LoL, AND you get the rest of the game, all the modes, maps etc. The DLC characters, assuming you don't preorder and buy the season pass, are $35 for 5 characters which is $7 each, roughly the same as LoL. If you pre-order that drops the price to $20 for 5 characters, $4 each. Using a little math and rational thought you can see that these prices are very reasonable, especially if you pre-order.
A common misconception with DLC is that it is done before launch, put on the disc, and then they charge people to unlock it. I will give you guys a little glimpse into how the game development process works so you guys can understand why this is. A character's development generally starts with a design document and some concept art. From there it goes to modeling and programmers start working on prototype code using another model or sometimes just a sphere. After the model is done it goes to the animators to be animated. Once they are done the programmers hook up the model in game and get all the animations playing at the correct times. After that there is a lot of playtesting and balance work done. Then the AI needs to be done, if the game has bots. This whole process usually takes about 6 months, sometimes more. Marketing will usually start after the character is modeled. At that point they can start making cinematics and other promotional material. The announcement is made to "buy the DLC character!" but interally the character is most likely still 2-3 months from completion with lots of animation, playtesting, balancing and possibly AI to be done. Once all the content for the base game is done the build is sent to MS and Sony for approval. At this point DLC work has already started, with some of the models done and probably a prototype in place. A few weeks later they tell you that you weren't approved and give you a list of things to fix, then you fix them and resubmit. More weeks go by then they approve you and the game has gone 'gold' and starts being printed on discs. BUT the build they printed had the DLC character model on it! The download is only a new EXE and a few script files, thus very small, and people freak out because "they sold us DLC that was already on the disk!!!". The model was finished when the game was printed on discs, but it was MANY months from actually being finished.
So what about pre-orders? Most would say they are a scam to get you to shell out before the reviews hit. In fact they are something created by Gamestop and other retailers to help them judge demand and make sure they order enough copies. Do you notice that games hardly ever sell out anymore? It is because of pre-orders. Retailers are much better able to judge demand for a particular title if they push pre-orders. Retailers demand pre-order bonuses from developers to give people more incentive to pre-order. In exchange they create signage and other in-store marketing for your game. If you give them EXCLUSIVE pre-order bonuses then they will push your game for you even more. That is why so many games are doing pre-order bonuses, sometimes retailer exclusive ones, because it gives the title a LOT of cheap marketing. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with tricking people into buying bad games; that is what review embargoes are for!
I hope that this has been given you guys a small glimpse as to why things are the way they are. Maybe you can understand now why these things need to exist and not spew out so much unadulterated hate on developers that use them.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Do you work for 2K or Turtle?
krypt0nian
Banned
Pure sycophantic garbage, Agrius.
Either adjust budgets to allow for a complete game, or you've failed as a dev.
Either adjust budgets to allow for a complete game, or you've failed as a dev.
Exactly!
ArkkAngel007
Member
^I don't find that an offer of 'reason' at all.
1. Honestly, the inflation argument is weak. We aren't comparing this to some SNES, N64 title. It's being compared to other games offered at similar prices CURRENTLY. There are more relevant factors in present economy/jobs per region than inflation. This is about the present market.
2. LoL is [afaik] F2P. People are willing to pay a bit more because there isn't a cost of entry. Yet here we are at a $60 entry-fee to play the game, on top of the $40-60 for Live/PS+ on consoles (PCMasterRace whatever). I don't find the content in the game necessarily to be lacking for what the game is, but with the bit I've played I don't see how an individual character or monster is worth that much. Also stands to reason that the cheaper the DLC is, the more it'll likely sell. That's a lot of 'free' revenue pouring in that you want to give your base as much incentive as possible to opt-in for. And as far as value for content, can look at other console/paid DLC, though there are problems with plenty of those as well.
3. This is the only point I can agree with mostly. The DLC is not finished, and people complaining about an incomplete game are just coloring the situation with their bias and preference rather than reality. Yet it doesn't mean that there should be such a strong push for the company to try and front-load all this post-game support before the game is even out the gate. It becomes less about the game itself and more about pulling off these tactics. Short-term goals over long term goals. Not really a good thing for a new IP and a studio like Turtle Rock.
4. Pre orders serve many purposes. Maybe they truly did begin just as inventory prep (btw, how are you an authority on the issue to make such a declarative statement?), but it has surpassed that point years ago. And with social networking, there are far cheaper ways to make deals. Perhaps you meant an additional source of income with companies like Gamestop or platform owners bidding/buying preorder content so that much of the marketing is on their end rather than the developer/publisher themselves? Edit: And as gunner pointed out, what purpose does this have in a digital market, where PC in particular will be (or would have been) quite strong.
1. Honestly, the inflation argument is weak. We aren't comparing this to some SNES, N64 title. It's being compared to other games offered at similar prices CURRENTLY. There are more relevant factors in present economy/jobs per region than inflation. This is about the present market.
2. LoL is [afaik] F2P. People are willing to pay a bit more because there isn't a cost of entry. Yet here we are at a $60 entry-fee to play the game, on top of the $40-60 for Live/PS+ on consoles (PCMasterRace whatever). I don't find the content in the game necessarily to be lacking for what the game is, but with the bit I've played I don't see how an individual character or monster is worth that much. Also stands to reason that the cheaper the DLC is, the more it'll likely sell. That's a lot of 'free' revenue pouring in that you want to give your base as much incentive as possible to opt-in for. And as far as value for content, can look at other console/paid DLC, though there are problems with plenty of those as well.
3. This is the only point I can agree with mostly. The DLC is not finished, and people complaining about an incomplete game are just coloring the situation with their bias and preference rather than reality. Yet it doesn't mean that there should be such a strong push for the company to try and front-load all this post-game support before the game is even out the gate. It becomes less about the game itself and more about pulling off these tactics. Short-term goals over long term goals. Not really a good thing for a new IP and a studio like Turtle Rock.
4. Pre orders serve many purposes. Maybe they truly did begin just as inventory prep (btw, how are you an authority on the issue to make such a declarative statement?), but it has surpassed that point years ago. And with social networking, there are far cheaper ways to make deals. Perhaps you meant an additional source of income with companies like Gamestop or platform owners bidding/buying preorder content so that much of the marketing is on their end rather than the developer/publisher themselves? Edit: And as gunner pointed out, what purpose does this have in a digital market, where PC in particular will be (or would have been) quite strong.
Please tell me which PR firm you work for cause I want to sign up there, they seem to be handing out some damn good stuff.
family_guy
Member
So it seems PC would be the way to right? Just let the community make the good content.
Revolutionary
Member
Hypemaster
Member
Lol exactly the same thing I was thinking.
Lord of Castamere
Member
Without mod tools that's unlikely to happen.
NexusGamer
Member
This really seems excessive
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I have suddenly changed my mind lol Will buy later on
MickeyKnox
Member
Hilarious, this thing is going to bomb so fucking hard.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
While I don't agree with what's going on here, it's not as simple as that. And you're incredibly misinformed for thinking it is.
krypt0nian
Banned
Sure thing.
If you google a bit you'll find it's actually TurtleRock.
SystemUser
Member
How long until this $131.88 worth of content is $9.99 during Steam sale? I assume it will hit that price during the summer sale.
Lord of Castamere
Member
Yep, they're an AI Engineer.
family_guy
Member
Didn't realize. These are the same guys that made Left 4 Dead right?
Mr. Luchador
Member
Ah...
krypt0nian
Banned
Shocking
Ah...
Ahhhaha. Yes.
2K, Turtle Rock, and anyone else pulling garbage DLC like this can get fucked.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Well, partnered with Valve and utilizing Source engine with L4D, while this is running on CryEngine 4?
Bit surprised there aren't mod tool support announced. Nothing I've played makes it look like it would be an issue. Hell, they were talking back in August or so iirc about doing something down the line with tools, so I'm not sure what's going on.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Personally, I wanted to know as it would add some insight into his post. I didn't want to know for a witch hunt or 'lolz' to happen. I just find it interesting if Developers/Engineers are currently thinking this way (which seems to me to be a very finances driven thought process), and really believe it... what's happened?
Is this the culture bred within AAA-Game Studios now? Or have we as gamers become too 'entitled'? This is way more interesting to me now I know where his point of view is coming from, rather than it being the random writings of someone who I felt might have just been Championing the game due to their hype for it.
Is this the culture bred within AAA-Game Studios now? Or have we as gamers become too 'entitled'? This is way more interesting to me now I know where his point of view is coming from, rather than it being the random writings of someone who I felt might have just been Championing the game due to their hype for it.
Lord of Castamere
Member
Why compete with the community for sales? I imagine 2k wouldn't want that. Valve on the other hand has always embraced the community's creations.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Constructive. Like I say, I'm at all in favour of this DLC plan, but generally speaking, it's not as simple as scaling back development 'to make a complete' game these days.
The baseline for AAA games has risen exponentially simply due to the amount of SKU's needed to be made and the visual fidelity of assets alone. People expect a certain level of graphics on their shiny new consoles...just look at how most people on this forum pick apart Xbox One and PS4 titles over details that most don't actually care about.
There's customers that need to be kept happy, and it's not cheap. Get off your high horse