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[Palette Swap]

Sorry but what would metal detectors do?

I'm trying to visualize metal detectors in any large subway system with millions of daily users and yeah, not happening.

(Nevermind creating new bottlenecks in already strained systems, you'd just be moving your target to before the detector)

 

[LiamR]

Come on UK, get your shit together. Seems like there's an attempt every month.

What kind of backwards ass logic is that? Countless attempts are prevented by counter-terrorism all the time. Also, stop victim blaming.

 

[BigJonsson]

Subways don't have checked bags like airplanes do, you can't ban metal on public mass transit

 

[KingSnake]

I wonder if this some accident though. A bomb would have at least shredded a plastic bucket to pieces.

 

[King_Moc]

People would adjust to the commute. It's like when people voluntarily purge their liquids before they fly.

If you've never been on the tube, it's probably best for you to just not speak. The number of people using it is nuts. Checks are simply not viable.

 

[NekoFever]

Seriously, people want mandatory bag checks on the Tube? There was an attack in 2005 and a largely failed one today, 12 years later. Welp, better bag check 5 million people per day.

Have some sense of proportionality.

Scaring people into stupid reactions like that is how the terrorists win.

 

[BocoDragon]

No they wouldn't. People need to carry that stuff. To work, from work.
Take stuff home they bought. Just some examples.
It's unfeasible.

It would be a hell of a hassle... but we face that same hassle when we fly. They even announced (implemented?) a cabin ban on large electronics like tablets and laptops which you'd think would be untenable given the nature of international business travel.

I'm going to bow out of this topic now because I think the bomb event is more important than this sidebar. Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for added security like it was a good thing... more saying "if it gets bad enough, someone will suggest drastic security methods". And considering that the UK is one of the most video surveilled country in the world (to a degree many western nations would consider excessive), it's not far fetched to imagine security methods ratcheting up.

If you've never been on the tube, it's probably best for you to just not speak. The number of people using it is nuts. Checks are simply not viable.

Why is everyone talking as if the U.K. has the highest population density in the world? I've heard Beijing mentioned in this thread. If they honestly do it then what are we talking about?

(I liked the poster that said they do it through authoritarianism and their ways can fuck off)

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I think you don't really understand either how the tube works, or how counterterrorism operations work in the Uk.

Remember, we've been experiencing this for *decades*. The IRA had a long campaign of targeting civilian targets in london. We never introduced bag searches or metal detectors on the underground then either. This isn't a new phenomenon, and no-one is going to disrupt one of the worlds busiest transport networks in the worlds financial capital just for a piece of security theatre - least of all the intelligence and police services.

This quote with regards to the 7/7 bombing never fails to crack me up:

"Oh, my god, there's a bomb on the Picadilly Line! Well, I can take the Victoria line."

 

[Osahi]

Stay safe London-GAF. Let's hope it's nothing too major, like the failed attempt in Brussels Central Station a few months back. Sucks there are injuries, and I hope those victims get well soon.

Are Bejing stations recently built or old? Most tube stations are very old and cramped as it is, security checks would have long lines going outside the station.

It also just moves the 'danger area'. Long lines at security checks are as much of a soft target as a crowd on a platform. The only case you can make is that a bomb does more damage inside a smaller space like a tube wagon.

I remember flying a few days after Brussels Airport went back open after the attacks, and the 'extra security' was an absolute disgrace. More people crammed together than the airport ever had. If terrorists would've wanted to strike there, they would've probably had more 'succes' than with the first attack.

 

[Jzero]

I wonder if this some accident though. A bomb would have at least shredded a plastic bucket to pieces.

Probably a radicalized kid that didn't know what he was doing.

Seriously, people want mandatory bag checks on the Tube? There was an attack in 2005 and a largely failed one today, 12 years later. Welp, better bag check 5 million people per day.

Have some sense of proportionality.

Scaring people into stupid reactions like that is how the terrorists win.

The TSA are pretty useless too, I don't know why they're still around

 

[Westbahnhof]

It would be a hell of a hassle... but we face that same hassle when we fly. They even announced (implemented?) a cabin ban on large electronics like tablets and laptops which you'd think would be untenable given the nature of international business travel.

I'm going to bow out of this topic now because I think the bomb event is more important than this sidebar. Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for added security like it was a good thing... more saying "if it gets bad enough, someone will suggest drastic security methods". And considering that the UK is one of the most video surveilled country in the world (to a degree many western nations would consider excessive), it's not far fetched to imagine security methods ratcheting up.

Yeah, please stop.
If you think flying is the same(or even closely comparable) as the tube, which many people use 7 days a week, numerous times a day, you just don't get it.

Your suggestion of the possibility of metal detectors is incredibly far fetched.

 

[ronaldthump]

just saw this on FB. fuckkkk

 

[2MF]

Seriously, people want mandatory bag checks on the Tube? There was an attack in 2005 and a largely failed one today, 12 years later. Welp, better bag check 5 million people per day.

Have some sense of proportionality.

Scaring people into stupid reactions like that is how the terrorists win.

This. Fuck those terrorists, and fuck the people who want to use terrorism as an excuse to establish a police state.

 

[Kuraudo]

Extra security before boarding the tube would not alleviate any risk of terrorism. The reason we have such tight security in airports is not just to protect the passengers--it's there because, as we've seen, a plane can be turned into a weapon which can be used to target another location. A train cannot be used in the same way. Terror attacks on trains target the passengers. By implementing security checks before boarding you'd only be moving the target and you'd likely be creating the kind of congestion that would make the target much bigger.

 

[Palette Swap]

Stay safe London-GAF. Let's hope it's nothing too major, like the failed attempt in Brussels Central Station a few months back. Sucks there are injuries, and I hope those victims get well soon.



It also just moves the 'danger area'. Long lines at security checks are as much of a soft target as a crowd on a platform. The only case you can make is that a bomb does more damage inside a smaller space like a tube wagon.

I remember flying a few days after Brussels Airport went back open after the attacks, and the 'extra security' was an absolute disgrace. More people crammed together than the airport ever had. If terrorists would've wanted to strike there, they would've probably had more 'succes' than with the first attack.

Gare du Nord in Paris has been suffering from the same issue ever since the Thalys attack. They added checks and detectors before the Thalys platforms, which means the queue spills in the hall and makes it super crowded. I guess now, terrorists don't even need to buy a Thalys ticket.

Edit: the Châtelet station is a poor example. The controls are for the mall, and when you're there changing lines, you don't go through any security (thankfullly).

 

[Alx]

It's being done at the gare du Chatelet in France, which is the second busiest station in Europe. Just at the entry points of the station though, but it's something.

I think the controls are mostly at the entrances of the mall that is connected to the station, but there are other uncontrolled accesses all around. The metro itself isn't checked.
But I think that in the 90s after the Saint Michel explosions, they had control of larger bags in the metro, but they were especially looking for gas cylinders, so they didn't need to search everybody at the time.

 

[Danneee]

You are aware that there are innumerable attempts all the time that fail right? Like, everywhere.

Innumerable? Everywhere? Come on man..

 

[Plum]

Goddamn. Really wish this were just an accident, but I seriously doubt it. Hope they're able to find out soon, and I hope those injured come out OK.

It would be a hell of a hassle... but we face that same hassle when we fly. They even announced (implemented?) a cabin ban on large electronics like tablets and laptops which you'd think would be untenable given the nature of international business travel.

Flying and taking the tube are two highly, highly different things. To compare the two just because they're modes of transport would be like comparing a horse to a supersonic Jet, it's ridiculous.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Just a reminder of the last time (to my knowledge) there was an attempt at leaving a bomb on public transport in London:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ntenced-to-15-years-for-planting-bomb-on-tube

A student with autism has been sentenced to 15 years in prison for planting a homemade bomb on a London underground train during morning rush hour.

Damon Smith, 20, constructed the rucksack bomb according to instructions in an online magazine linked to al-Qaida. Filled with ball-bearing shrapnel and using a £2 clock from Tesco as an improvised timer, the devise did not go off.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Officially being treated as a terrorist incident. Reported by bbc

 

[hodgy100]

It would be a hell of a hassle... but we face that same hassle when we fly. They even announced (implemented?) a cabin ban on large electronics like tablets and laptops which you'd think would be untenable given the nature of international business travel.

I'm going to bow out of this topic now because I think the bomb event is more important than this sidebar. Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for added security like it was a good thing... more saying "if it gets bad enough, someone will suggest drastic security methods". And considering that the UK is one of the most video surveilled country in the world (to a degree many western nations would consider excessive), it's not far fetched to imagine security methods ratcheting up.



Why is everyone talking as if the U.K. has the highest population density in the world? I've heard Beijing mentioned in this thread. If they honestly do it then what are we talking about?

(I liked the poster that said they do it through authoritarianism and their ways can fuck off)

Why are you comparing it to flying?! I don't fly 25 mins to work and back every day. i get the tube adding a completely pointless system of security checks would double the length of my commute and make the tube quite frankly shit. its not workable.

 

[BrassDragon]

Extra security before boarding the tube would not alleviate any risk of terrorism. The reason we have such tight security in airports is not just to protect the passengers--it's there because, as we've seen, a plane can be turned into a weapon which can be used to target another location. A train cannot be used in the same way. Terror attacks on trains target the passengers. By implementing security checks before boarding you'd only be moving the target and you'd likely be creating the kind of congestion that would make the target much bigger.

The real counter measures are covert train marshals, specialized camera operators and hi-res coverage of the hot zones, and community policing to catch early warnings of radicalization and preparation. These aren't sexy, visible programs that reassure the public so they often have to fight for funding and personnel. Sadly.

Security choke points are controversial because they have tremendous cost (money and manpower) and a spotty track record of success and create their own risks as outlined above. Some improvised explosives can be assembled on-site so if you have six guys smuggling in different parts the challenge of stopping them becomes much harder. We also see a shift away from explosives to edged weapons that have an even lower barrier to entry for terrorists.

Let your counter-terrorism agencies tell you what they need, don't set up security theater for the sake of optics.

 

[Nevasleep]

Sky news sources: This is now being treated as a terrorism related incident


Other reports are saying at least 20 injured, some with facial burns. Also the crush leaving the station.

 

[BraXzy]

BBC news report last I checked was really lacking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ain-parsons-green-reports-injuries-district1/

Commuters fled in terror after a blast sent a "fireball" and a "wall of flame" through a packed London Underground train at Parsons Green station.

Witnesses reported seeing several people hurt and "covered in blood" after a "flash and a bang" on the District Line Tube in west London on Friday morning.

Pictures and video posted on social media showed a flaming bucket - which is said to have had wires coming from it - inside a plastic carrier bag on the floor of a carriage.

 

[KingSnake]

I missed the wires, yeah, it looks like a homemade bomb attempt.

 

[Sevenfold]

Gare du Nord in Paris has been suffering from the same issue ever since the Thalys attack. They added checks and detectors before the Thalys platforms, which means the queue spills in the hall and makes it super crowded. I guess now, terrorists don't even need to buy a Thalys ticket.

There was some interesting talk about bottlenecks after the Manchester attack. For 50,000 to enter a venue at the same time without checks holding them up, the checks must take place around the edge of a ring a quarter mile radius from the entrance. Not remotely feasible.

Unfortunately it comes down to intelligence, which is something the general population have no control over. it comes down to people close to the attackers noticing a change or worrying behaviours, which prompts the whole insular communities discussion. We have excellent intelligence in the UK, constant international agency chatter, and in general, one of the best police forces in the world. None of which is going to stop a pissed off teen reading the wrong thing on Facebook and ending up in a Discord full of folk well versed in sculpting kids using religious guilt and playing on their angst. A catalyst for sure, and without intervention a dangerous path indeed. Who intervenes? We know from article after article post attack that Jimmy was a lovely man, wouldn't harm a mouse etc... How can someone assist and advise if the issue doesn't manifest in any tangible form until the day (we can assume if they've gotten this far they have the contacts to get whatever it is they need (or they have a kitchen))

It feels like an impossible situation. Perfect fear fodder. Let's be realistic though, this is in no way the UK losing control. These events are thankfully incredibly rare.

BBC news report last I checked was really lacking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ain-parsons-green-reports-injuries-district1/

That's a large bag.

 

[Plum]

The wires pretty much confirm it's intentional. Hope they're able to find the person who did this.

 

[DrFurbs]

I wonder if this was just an attempt to keep people on their toes or a distraction technique.

The IRA and Dissident Republicans would do things like this so they could move caches of weaponry and Explosives from A to B.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

BBC news report last I checked was really lacking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ain-parsons-green-reports-injuries-district1/

Definitely a homemade bomb, yeah.

 

[MarkMclovin]

Christ that looks pretty big.

Glad it didn't go off properly.

Hope they catch the cunt that planted it.

 

[Breakage]

The person who dropped it will likely be caught on CCTV.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Hopefully since there's cameras everywhere they find this person.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Oh man. Thats close to some people I know. Its too familiar.

 

[MUnited83]

It would be a hell of a hassle... but we face that same hassle when we fly. They even announced (implemented?) a cabin ban on large electronics like tablets and laptops which you'd think would be untenable given the nature of international business travel.

I'm going to bow out of this topic now because I think the bomb event is more important than this sidebar. Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for added security like it was a good thing... more saying "if it gets bad enough, someone will suggest drastic security methods". And considering that the UK is one of the most video surveilled country in the world (to a degree many western nations would consider excessive), it's not far fetched to imagine security methods ratcheting up.



Why is everyone talking as if the U.K. has the highest population density in the world? I've heard Beijing mentioned in this thread. If they honestly do it then what are we talking about?

(I liked the poster that said they do it through authoritarianism and their ways can fuck off)

It's not going to happen. It's a mindnumbbingly stupid ass suggestion that shows how little you know about London. You'd destroy the city's economy and traffic. You wouldn't catch a single terrorist. Any terrorist wouldn't even give a shit about going through the security checks, they could just bomb the absolutely massive queues for the security checks. Then what, you make a security check for the security check?

 

[tonysidaway]

Obviously. But my examples of security checks in schools and food courts are equally logistical nightmares to a subway.

That is probably why security checks in such venues don't happen in the UK, either. Food courts? *Schools?* That's an odd selection.

 

[BrassDragon]

I wonder if this was just an attempt to keep people on their toes or a distraction technique.

The IRA and Dissident Republicans would do things like this so they could move caches of weaponry and Explosives from A to B.

Cells in Europe have learned that every attempt brings intense scrutiny on every known associate, with an increased tempo of police raids and interrogations - they often lose more than they gain (even if no one gets caught, their ability to operate is severely hampered.) The old school terrorists, like the IRA, had a far superior support network to disappear in so they did indeed do dry-runs and diversions. The IS-inspired clowns aren't at that level and have to make each attempt count.

From what I can tell based on social media, they messed up a real strike; the power source and initiator worked but the explosive fell short of effect. Also, the placement in the middle of the train is a poor choice so the delivery person either wasn't trained or panicked.

 

[SomTervo]

Obviously. But my examples of security checks in schools and food courts are equally logistical nightmares to a subway.

... Not on the scale of literally millions of people a day all cramming to get somewhere

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Looks a very amateur attempt, the good news is this scum should be on camera and is still out there and will be caught.

Got to admit I'll be a bit nervy on Tuesday on the tube

 

[Mr. Sam]

It's a flaming pail of garbage? Professional espionage, this ain't.

Homemade bombs are normally crude and, considering the incompetents who make them, pretty ineffective.

Edit: I think people need to divorce this concept in their head of "terrorist" and "hypercompetent".

 

[haimon]

Subways don't have checked bags like airplanes do, you can't ban metal on public mass transit

Israel has checkpoints at all entries to malls train station and other Mass crowd places.

It's not impossible.

 

[DrFurbs]

Cells in Europe have learned that every attempt brings intense scrutiny on every known associate, with an increased tempo of police raids and interrogations - they often lose more than they gain (even if no one gets caught, their ability to operate is severely hampered.) The old school terrorists, like the IRA, had a far superior support network to disappear in so they did indeed do dry-runs and diversions. The IS-inspired clowns aren't at that level and have to make each attempt count.

From what I can tell based on social media, they messed up a real strike; the power source and initiator worked but the explosive fell short of effect. Also, the placement in the middle of the train is a poor choice so the delivery person either wasn't trained or panicked.

Very good analysis.

 

[Baki]

This is why the police need more funding. I don't believe the threat level is higher than 2-3 years ago, but because Theresa May has defunded the police, there's been an increase in incidents as police are unable to action intel that they receive.

I'm glad there have been no fatalities, but this certainly frightens me and makes it clear that we need to make significant investments into our police force.

 

[CSJ]

I missed the wires, yeah, it looks like a homemade bomb attempt.

There's a cylinder inside the bucket too.

 

[MUnited83]

Israel has checkpoints at all entries to malls train station and other Mass crowd places.

It's not impossible.

Israel doesn't have a tube system that serves 5 millions of people per day, no.

 

[Carl]

Israel has checkpoints at all entries to malls train station and other Mass crowd places.

It's not impossible.

I'd rather have the possibility of bombs than that

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Israel has checkpoints at all entries to malls train station and other Mass crowd places.

It's not impossible.

Israel has a smaller population than London alone and that's not even taking into account the people from the rest of the UK, Europe and the world that are in London every day.

 

[Ac30]

There's a cylinder inside the bucket too.

And oil soaked rags on top maybe? Either way, it's a good sign the plastic bucket's still intact.

 

[BrassDragon]

This is why the police need more funding. I don't believe the threat level is higher than 2-3 years ago, but because Theresa May has defunded the police, there's been an increase in incidents as police are unable to action intel that they receive.

I'm glad there have been no fatalities, but this certainly frightens me and makes it clear that we need to make significant investments into our police force.

Train marshal programs have been cut nearly everywhere - policy makers in all countries REALLY hate specialized security detail that's invisible and costs a lot, effectiveness be damned. It looks like a 'quick win' on paper.

 

[jufonuk]

no doubt ISIS will claim this as theirs

 

[IdreamofHIME]

If I saw a bucket on fire with wires poking out after hearing a huge explosion..I'd definitely stop to take a few snaps.
Yikes.