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Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 29 - Jan 4 | 2015: An Esports Odyssey
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
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I love it when people that take offense to implied generalizations... generalize their offenders.
"Those Melee guys are elitist because they say the Smash game we play is poop."
Dumb.
There's little argument that Brawl/Smash WiiU are crappy competitive fighting games in relation to more traditional fighters or Melee. It's not because they house no competitive value, period, it's merely because their design doesn't accommodate traditional competitive fighting game values. When people criticize or call those games crap, they're not calling the community crap by extension and you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of anyone doing that, I'm sure.
Crap game is crap. Everyone's great. That 'elitism" crap is a perspective conjured from butt-hurt. There's assholes everywhere, your hurt-bum included. The more tenable generalization is that the Melee community isn't any more or less elitist than any other older community in the FGC.
Your moms has my keyboard. I'm sure everything will turn out fine.
"Those Melee guys are elitist because they say the Smash game we play is poop."
Dumb.
There's little argument that Brawl/Smash WiiU are crappy competitive fighting games in relation to more traditional fighters or Melee. It's not because they house no competitive value, period, it's merely because their design doesn't accommodate traditional competitive fighting game values. When people criticize or call those games crap, they're not calling the community crap by extension and you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of anyone doing that, I'm sure.
Crap game is crap. Everyone's great. That 'elitism" crap is a perspective conjured from butt-hurt. There's assholes everywhere, your hurt-bum included. The more tenable generalization is that the Melee community isn't any more or less elitist than any other older community in the FGC.
Your moms has my keyboard. I'm sure everything will turn out fine.
Karsticles
Member
What traditional fighting game value does Smash 4 not possess?
I don't know, honor, I guess.
To be more serious, just watching the finals of last night's Smash 4 Xanadu, and watching them just try to stage spike each other was fun to watch.
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/3649596
SloaneRisette
Member
Funny, since a lot of the talk I've been seeing is that Smash 4 reminds people a lot like SF4 due to how important footsies and the neutral game is.
Of course it's important, just like it was important in Brawl. That doesn't make the footsie game not weak from a design standpoint. The emphasis on having good footsies is larger in the newer games because combos and edge-guarding have been nerfed.
Revised: Those Melee guys are elitist because they get very emotional over any discussion of Smash games relative to Melee.
I get passionate regarding FGs in general, which should be hard not to notice. Especially if I perceive injustice in a matter related.
But whatever, if it tickles your pair of low hanging fruit just right, you can dismiss that post as "Melee-motional" if you want.
Karsticles
Member
Meleemotional - I love it.
I don't find the Oki game weak, though. I like any game with tech rolls, you have to react quickly and go where they go. I pick a lot of people up after a knockdown with Bowser. Especially, since people like to attack on Oki, running up and shielding is very effective.
I think the footsies could be better. Being able to dash left/right without a skid would be wonderful. At the same time, I wouldn't say they don't exist, especially as people continue to master perfect pivoting, pivot grabs, and pivot tilts. I have found Bowser to be stronger than ever as I work these latter two into my game more (his perfect pivot sucks).
But if you love Marvel, SF can be awfully dull to play. It is reasonable for Melee players to not be happy with Smash 4. However, I think it is a solid fighting game on its own grounds. Like Kimo, I would prefer for it to be more aggressive like Melee, but I don't agree that it is a bad game by any means. It isn't quite as defensive as SF. If it had any more defensive options I think it would be frustrating and slow to play.
I think the first point is undebatable. Smash 4 has no capacity at all for blockstring pressure.
I don't find the Oki game weak, though. I like any game with tech rolls, you have to react quickly and go where they go. I pick a lot of people up after a knockdown with Bowser. Especially, since people like to attack on Oki, running up and shielding is very effective.
I think the footsies could be better. Being able to dash left/right without a skid would be wonderful. At the same time, I wouldn't say they don't exist, especially as people continue to master perfect pivoting, pivot grabs, and pivot tilts. I have found Bowser to be stronger than ever as I work these latter two into my game more (his perfect pivot sucks).
I think it has a lot in common with Street Fighter, but Melee fans want it to be more like Marvel or GG. In other words, Smash 4 and SF both give a lot of strong defensive options, to the point where not attacking and standing your ground is often a strong tactic. Marvel and GG always reward strong offensive play, so there is never a time you want to go full defensive (timer scam exempted).
But if you love Marvel, SF can be awfully dull to play. It is reasonable for Melee players to not be happy with Smash 4. However, I think it is a solid fighting game on its own grounds. Like Kimo, I would prefer for it to be more aggressive like Melee, but I don't agree that it is a bad game by any means. It isn't quite as defensive as SF. If it had any more defensive options I think it would be frustrating and slow to play.
LMAO @ "Melee-motional".
And for the record, block string pressure isn't really a staple of fighting games when you take into account 3D fighters. Most moves in top end 3D fighters are highly negative on block, you can't just stay in the opponent's face all day and press buttons for frame advantage. Sure there are some examples of block string pressure but overall it's not that big part of the games and most of the time is not spent with one person being in block stun for a good portion of the game.
And for the record, block string pressure isn't really a staple of fighting games when you take into account 3D fighters. Most moves in top end 3D fighters are highly negative on block, you can't just stay in the opponent's face all day and press buttons for frame advantage. Sure there are some examples of block string pressure but overall it's not that big part of the games and most of the time is not spent with one person being in block stun for a good portion of the game.
ShinMaruku
Member
Man in the past 2 weeks I have seen 5 abels get perfected. Why do they get blown up so spectacularly?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
FGW | More Meleemotions than your average smash board
Slamtastic
Member
lifebars
Hope she gets better.
There's stamina mode which is basically a life bar.
irfaanator
Banned
a christmas/new year's miracle that dahbomb is back right before the start of 2015
I don't know Smash 4's dominant tactics, Kars. What does Bowser do if he grabs you at low percentages in your scenario, at, say, the center of the stage?
Dahbomb: I don't think 3D fighters were always like that. I remember T4 and SC1/2 having some really dirty frame traps utilizing moves that were like +13 on block for crissakes. It wasn't until T5/SC3 and the whole pussification of video games movement started that I remember 3D fighters having shitty block string pressure.
Dahbomb: I don't think 3D fighters were always like that. I remember T4 and SC1/2 having some really dirty frame traps utilizing moves that were like +13 on block for crissakes. It wasn't until T5/SC3 and the whole pussification of video games movement started that I remember 3D fighters having shitty block string pressure.
Professor Beef
Banned
"as a melee player..."
Slow normals and lack of invincible reversal
Karsticles
Member
Bowser can actually link his up throw into fair or uair as a true combo at low percentages.
At mid to high percentages, chain an attack or two and throw close off the ledge and try to gimp. At around 140%, Bowser's normal grabs KO. At around 110%, Bowser will want to go for Klaw instead of a normal grab, since it KOs anywhere.
Bowser probably has the weakest combo potential in the game, though. Most characters have a guaranteed link at all but the highest percentages out of a throw if they guess the DI right.
Mario can combo you to ~40% off of a throw, for example (he might have the best comboability).
Nope. Removed since Brawl
Welp. Good to know. Thanks for the responses, all.
Tekken 4 was a terrible competitive fighting game PRECISELY because the frame traps/block strings were so absurd. Along with a bunch of other stuff as well. I can't comment much on SC1/SC2, I only followed them at a casual level.
Moves that are that positive on block in Tekken these days are only reserved for moves that have a ton of start up so you earn the block string after it (or they have other disadvantages to them like hitting high). Once they introduced low parries/moves staggering on block after T3 it just didn't make sense to go for mid/low mix ups during block strings.
That said frame traps still exist in Tekken of course, it's a substantial part of the game. But there is no "stuck in block stun for 4-5 seconds and repeatedly guess a bunch of 50/50s".
SloaneRisette
Member
I don't know what you know about Super Smash Bros. Melee (I'm an expert) but Meleemotions are a big part of it
Osu 16 Bit
Member
This has been my best year for fighting games. Shout outs to 2014.
I agree with you but Capcom is not exempt from this either. Every SF4 character hasn't changed at ALL from their original designs. At least Namco did so from Tekken 1 through Tekken 5. Ryu and Chun Li are still the damn same for SF5... no evolution of the character at all.
Netherrealms are the best sudio right now for this. They keep their character designs fresh for every game they release. And considering how generic the ninja attire is, it's a mighty accomplishment.
Best of luck, smurfx. Hope everything turns out fine real soon.
JeTmAn81
Member
He has returned.
I just realized something...is that Kim Jong Il?
Sorry to hear about your mom Smurfx, I will pray for her.
Dahbomb is back?
#PraiseBe
CountBlackule's top moments of FG2014 is really good actually. I totally forgot about Marn lighting up both F.Champ and Chris G somehow. :lol
Still think that the Big House 4 Top 32 (or just the top 8 really) was the best event of the year though but I respect the explanations going on in that post.
Canvas Curse says nope. That game was legit a DS killer app on the level of Mario 64 for the Nintendo 64. Haven't played much Kirby outside of that, 64 (bring back fused powers HAL), and Adventure on the NES way back in the day. I've heard good things about Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe though.
Edit: What happened Smurf?
Edit 2: NVM, caught the post. Sorry to hear that and here's hoping for the best.
#PraiseBe
CountBlackule's top moments of FG2014 is really good actually. I totally forgot about Marn lighting up both F.Champ and Chris G somehow. :lol
Still think that the Big House 4 Top 32 (or just the top 8 really) was the best event of the year though but I respect the explanations going on in that post.
Canvas Curse says nope. That game was legit a DS killer app on the level of Mario 64 for the Nintendo 64. Haven't played much Kirby outside of that, 64 (bring back fused powers HAL), and Adventure on the NES way back in the day. I've heard good things about Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe though.
Edit: What happened Smurf?
Edit 2: NVM, caught the post. Sorry to hear that and here's hoping for the best.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
No, because fun.
The only thing I see Smash not having is block string pressure. I would like to see a Smash where shielding is a lot stronger (remove shield weakening just from using it) and add more recovery to rolls across the board.
CountBlack
Member
XBL going down during the topanga stream
don't end like this
don't end like this
Holy Order Sol
Member
bruh
Professor Beef
Banned
Canvas Curse wasn't fun, sorry.
It had some neat ideas, though. That's already like several notches up from your average Kirby game.
Professor Beef
Banned
I wouldn't say CC is bad, but I was no fan.
GorillaWithDandruff
Member
the fuck? You tellin me you've never looked at Liu Kang and had to do a double take to make sure his face, shoulders and pecks weren't actually real and popping out of the screen?!??
*shivers*
lemstar the god
CountBlack
Member
the dream isn't happening
Best of luck for your mom Smurfx.
-----------------
Welcome back dahbomb!
Happy new year everyone!
Smooth Operator
Member
Welcome back Dahbomb
the fuck? You tellin me you've never looked at Liu Kang and had to do a double take to make sure his face, shoulders and pecks weren't actually real and popping out of the screen?!??
*shivers*
lol
I also can't believe this is from MKX. Like how does character modeling go that wrong?
Hoping they fix this since I'm actually looking forward to trying out MKX.