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[Jazz-ism]

VF, Tekken, GG and KoF are execution games....if you want to open pandoras box, i would argue melee as well.


brawl divekick and netherrealm games seem to be the lower end of execution. street fighter 4 is in this bracket but towards the top

I ain't gonna lie. I tried the demo of KOFXIII a while back and looked at the inputs for some of those moves and went "lolnope" and never went back. I have a hard enough time with marvel and it's to my understanding that the inputs in that game are simplified and have a wider input window that most. the players at EVO a year or two ago make it look fun, but I'd never remotely approach that lvl of execution.

thats a good attitude to have. because if you see something difficult and cower away like that, the most you will ever amount to is johnny donuts.

and looking at your name/handle, i would say thats appropriate.

 

[The Last Emperor]

Can we go back to talking about Fgc related stuff that actually matters

Like, is there gonna be a stream of Long Island joe kicking triforces ass?

 

[toddhunter]

Although what you mean to say is that they add a 2 frame buffer to moves so that linking is easier which is fine by me. Most fighting games these days have fairly generous buffer windows anyway.

Essentially yes, but figured defaulting plinking would be the easiest way to achieve that (without introducing new bugs/combos or double plinking or something)

Besides monsters like Chris G it seems a lot of people are re-wiring so might as well level the playing field.

 

[darkblade77]

The answer changes depending on the play level: versus friends who just wanna chill out and have a beer and beat up some mans, versus people just playing casually or at your local weekly, or versus the world's best at a major. So what exactly are you trying to get out of these questions?

This would be the latter; non-casual play.

And thanks everyone for the responses so far! Definitely liking the varying responses to the bonus question.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't agree tbh. I don't certain aspects of games should be artificially hard based on arbitrary factors. Be able to actually rush down is hard in itself if you're playing against someone who is just as competent as you are.

What if there's a fighting game where every character is 100% balanced... and the only difference among characters is their execution. What incentive would you have to pick a high execution character if you are in it to win? It does not make sense to pick a high execution character in this case... you are just making things hard on yourself for no reason.

 

[vocab]

thats a good attitude to have. because if you see something difficult and cower away like that, the most you will ever amount to is johnny donuts.

and looking at your name/handle, i would say thats appropriate.

Damn... Tommy Fucking Pickles.

 

[Slamtastic]

What is a fighting game made in the past ~6 years that you think requires 'high execution' to play competitively? (Relative to other fighting games made around the same time)

KoFXIII, SF4 (Link combos)

Conversely, name a fighting game you would consider to require only 'low execution' to play competitively?

Mortal Kombat, Injustice: Gods Among Us, Killer Instinct (going off others impressions)

What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something 'requiring high execution' in a fighting game?

One Frame Link, followed by Pretzel Motion

Do you believe that characters that require high execution to play properly should be rewarded somehow relative to lower execution characters? (i.e. having unique/better options)
-This is assuming the developer is responsible for the 'reward', and not technology the dev didn't consider(even if the latter is often the case over the former).

In theory it sounds good, but in practice, the execution requirements often don't provide any barrier in playing the character, players overcome them and that character is simply "top tier" and not risk/reward based on your execution skills.

 

[CPS2]

Everything has already changed so much with fighting games, I'm not sure what people would even be trying to preserve by not selling out. I thought more monetization opportunities would be a good thing. I get that honest impressions are valuable, but I think most people in this thread are good at spotting fake hype, empty promotion, and put more value on real information about game features and facts in general.

With this Microsoft/machinima thing I don't think it could hurt anyone to try and make money out of it. If it feels like useless advertising people will ignore it or complain but in the end its pretty harmless stuff and it won't change the fact that there's already a lot of gaming videos on youtube that aren't worth watching and have no incentives attached. Ultimately its just a chance to promote something and get paid for it, which many many people do to make a living. I don't expect people to work for free and don't mind if some of the videos on their youtube channel are advertisements that I can easily not watch.

 

[Silky]

Can we go back to talking about Fgc related stuff that actually matters

Like, is there gonna be a stream of Long Island joe kicking triforces ass?

People getting upset at Triforce does apply as a "Nothing Happened" scenario right

because it's like every other week when EMP pisses off /someone/

Hey FGC-GAF, I wanna ask you some questions about execution.

1. What is a fighting game made in the past ~6 years that you think requires 'high execution' to play competitively? (Relative to other fighting games made around the same time)
2. Conversely, name a fighting game you would consider to require only 'low execution' to play competitively?
3. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something 'requiring high execution' in a fighting game?

And a bonus question:

• Do you believe that characters that require high execution to play properly should be rewarded somehow relative to lower execution characters? (i.e. having unique/better options)
  -This is assuming the developer is responsible for the 'reward', and not technology the dev didn't consider(even if the latter is often the case over the former).

1) VF and KOF obviously.
2) Divekick, Persona, KI and to a lesser extent Skullgirls.
3) Strict timing accompanied with bizarre/specific inputs to pull off long, exotic strings. Kind of like KOF.
4) Nope.

thats a good attitude to have. because if you see something difficult and cower away like that, the most you will ever amount to is johnny donuts.

and looking at your name/handle, i would say thats appropriate.

goddamn

 

[theprodigy]

What if there's a fighting game where every character is 100% balanced... and the only difference among characters is their execution. What incentive would you have to pick a high execution character if you are in it to win? It does not make sense to pick a high execution character in this case... you are just making things hard on yourself for no reason.

this isn't possible though
and by that logic, why does Justin Wong play the team he does in Marvel when there are better options

 

[Jazz-ism]

KoFXIII, SF4 (Link combos)

son, links are not something exclusive to sf4 and i completely disagree with putting these two games in the same execution category. have you played both of them?

 

[Infinite]

What if there's a fighting game where every character is 100% balanced... and the only difference among characters is their execution. What incentive would you have to pick a high execution character if you are in it to win? It does not make sense to pick a high execution character in this case... you are just making things hard on yourself for no reason.

Like I'm saying why should there even be this 'high execution' character in the game? I don't think rewarding the player based on how well they execute this combo they practiced on the training is good design. I'm not against high level universal techniques that require a bit of practice to perform like what we have with smash bros melee and ones that reward you for being experienced with the game like parrying in 3s. I just think that a player should pick up a game and say "man this guy is hard to play imma play ryu because even though he's boring to me I'll get better with him faster." Also you know as well as I do that people pick the characters they play in fighting games for reasons that do not even involve tiers most of the time.

this isn't possible though
and by that logic, why does Justin Wong play the team he does in Marvel when there are better options

Funny because Justin's team isn't very demanding in terms of execution. He doesn't even due the most optimal stuff with the characters. He's fucking Tim Duncan with that team. Fundamentals and playing the player is what carries him.

 

[Lambda Pie]

which do you value the most in execution: timing or dexterity?

 

[Dahbomb]

this isn't possible though
and by that logic, why does Justin Wong play the team he does in Marvel when there are better options

It's not about what's possible... we are talking about a basic principle here which is why I made example of a perfectly balanced game in terms of toolsets and match ups.

How about I make an even easier example... what if there was a two character fighting game and the two characters had a perfect 5/5 match up on paper. Only difference was that one character required 1 frame links and pretzel motions to do his moves while the other had basic command normals as moves. Why would you ever pick the high execution character in this case?


Justin Wong uses that team because that team is still very capable and he is extremely familiar with those characters, more so than any other player which works to his advantage as he is more familiar with his characters than his opponents are. The team does have its strong points that can't be ignored like absurdly powerful THC options and the classic Wolverine + Akuma duo that dominated Vanilla. It is at the bare minimum a complete team having a strong point, a solid anchor, a solid secondary, the best DHC in the game, a great assist and a TAC infinite character.

Like I'm saying why should there even be this 'high execution' character in the game? I don't think rewarding the player based on how long they execute this combo they practiced on the training is good design. I'm not against high level universal techniques that require a bit of practice to perform like what we have with smash bros melee and ones that reward for being experienced in with the game like parrying in 3s. I just think that a player should pick up a game and say "man this guy is hard to play imma play ryu because even though he's boring to me I'll get better with him faster." Also you know as well as I do that people pick the characters they play in fighting games for reasons that do not even involve tiers most of the time.

I agree with you that a game should not have high execution but OP characters by default that is why I answered no to the initial question. However if a move does happen to be high execution in its input then it needs to be slightly more rewarding (even if it comes with a con) than its lower execution counter part. Like a QCF move has to be worse than a QCF x2 move.

 

[Retro_]

How about I make an even easier example... what if there was a two character fighting game and the two characters had a perfect 5/5 match up on paper. Only difference was that one character required 1 frame links and pretzel motions to do his moves while the other had basic command normals as moves. Why would you ever pick the high execution character in this case?

Is the high execution character female perhaps?

 

[Kadey]

Holy Flux's big booty! Makoto is nuts in Ultra. Haitani to win EVO confirmed.

 

[theprodigy]

Is the high execution character (insert any arbitrary criteria here)?

fixed
I mean really now

besides, I'm sure some would intentionally pick the harder character in that scenario anyway

 

[Infinite]

Holy Flux's big booty! Makoto is nuts in Ultra. Haitani to win EVO confirmed.

lol

Are you playing a PC mod with the ultra changes so far?

 

[The Last Emperor]

Holy Flux's big booty.

Kadey stahp

 

[Professor Beef]

I was at work all day, what happened to dnyce?

 

[ipitydatfu]

I was at work all day, what happened to dnyce?

attempted suicide via pills

 

[Slamtastic]

son, links are not something exclusive to sf4 and i completely disagree with putting these two games in the same execution category. have you played both of them?

I suppose I could have just lumped "every game that doesn't use a chain system for combos" together, instead of singling out SF4 as opposed to ST or 3S to refer to having to put 3 or 2 or 1 frame window inputs in optimal combos for the highest levels of play.

In KoF you certainly need more to even play the game at a lower level, but the oft praised fundamentals in SF4 only get you so far when talking about top 8s at EVO or what have you (highest level of competition).

 

[enzo_gt]

Holy Flux's big booty! Makoto is nuts in Ultra. Haitani to win EVO confirmed.

 

[Riposte]

Damn... right in the kisser.

What are you talking about? There's nothing potent about that post. It's SRK at its worst.

Look I'm no fan of Killer Instinct, never have been, but this thread is about all fighting games. Anyone who can't respect that should be told to GTFO because they are shitposting and hogging this thread for themselves. This thread doesn't exist for an insular community, it exists for GAF.

I realize this is funny given the sub-title.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is the high execution character female perhaps?

It's just a SF2 Ryu vs Ryu II scenario I am portraying here.

Basically I am saying that a fighting game just has Ryu and Ryu II... but Ryu II's moves are more difficult to perform than Ryu's. The frame data and move properties of all their moves are identical otherwise so on paper they are a 5/5.

As a competitive player... why would you ever pick Ryu II over Ryu in this case?

 

[Silky]

lol

Are you playing a PC mod with the ultra changes so far?

Wait there's a PC mod with the Ultra changes? Outrageous

 

[theprodigy]

It's just a SF2 Ryu vs Ryu II scenario I am portraying here.

Basically I am saying that a fighting game just has Ryu and Ryu II... but Ryu II's moves are more difficult to perform than Ryu's. The frame data and move properties of all their moves are identical otherwise so on paper they are a 5/5.

As a competitive player... why would you ever pick Ryu II over Ryu in this case?

showing off

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Wow calm down people

 

[Kadey]

Yeah. I'm in a lobby with Jlai and Saty playing Ultra.

 

[Slamtastic]

It's just a SF2 Ryu vs Ryu II scenario I am portraying here.

Basically I am saying that a fighting game just has Ryu and Ryu II... but Ryu II's moves are more difficult to perform than Ryu's. The frame data and move properties of all their moves are identical otherwise so on paper they are a 5/5.

As a competitive player... why would you ever pick Ryu II over Ryu in this case?

Masochism?

I mean, plenty of people out there enjoy something more the more challenging it is, and get personal satisfaction from knowing they overcame the greater challenge, even if the reward is the same.

See people criticizing various games for being too easy and priding themselves on playing/doing well at hard games.

 

[MechaX]

All the talk about high execution games and KoF XIII makes me realize that I haven't watched a KoF XIII tourny in awhile. I need to be on the lookout for that; I'm getting pretty bored watching Marvel atm.

Once I find out someone is into the console war, I can't help but hold their posts in suspect.

I also met a hardcore Sony fanboy in real life, one of my study buddies for class. Something I had to block out mentally. Also he didn't have PS+, I found that odd.

Two of my best friends are literally some of the biggest Sony fanboys I have met in my entire life, online or offline. And they're literally like "jizz in mah pants" excited over the string of Nintendo news.

 

[That Dude John]

thats a good attitude to have. because if you see something difficult and cower away like that, the most you will ever amount to is johnny donuts.

and looking at your name/handle, i would say thats appropriate.

Ice cold.

I don't quite get the "johnny donuts" part, but I get the general sentiment. I just prefer the least between me and the actual strategy of matches. It's only recently that I half-way decently understand how marvel works. Usually, I get so "bent-out-of-shape" about how to do something, that I end up never learning when, where, or why I'd apply said something in the appropriate situation. And I didn't want to venture into the black hole that KOFXIII appeared to be at the time.

Or I could just be a coward.

Yeah, probably just a coward.

 

[alstein]

VF, Tekken, GG and KoF are execution games....if you want to open pandoras box, i would argue melee as well.


brawl divekick and netherrealm games seem to be the lower end of execution. street fighter 4 is in this bracket but towards the top



thats a good attitude to have. because if you see something difficult and cower away like that, the most you will ever amount to is johnny donuts.

and looking at your name/handle, i would say thats appropriate.

VF is not a high execution game. There's some high execution stuff, but it's not as necessary as it is in other fighters.

Tekken/KOFXIII/GG- agreed there completely

 

[Warpticon]

I was totally going to bed early, then I got linked this video from the capcom olympics of EX2+, which I missed live. Looks like those plans are in the toilet.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uex-nEC3Bcc#t=2m20s

I'm still in disbelief that this actually happened.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

The thing that sucks about this Microsoft stuff getting out in the open (I believe it always has been happening to an extent) is we could kind of have a McCarthyism like undertone going with whom is a shill or not. Whose opinions we trust and so forth. Like max and art shouldn't have to defend themselves. Or should they? Hehe.

Thank god for demos and loc tests.

 

[Sayah]

Hey FGC-GAF, I wanna ask you some questions about execution.

[*]What is a fighting game made in the past ~6 years that you think requires 'high execution' to play competitively? (Relative to other fighting games made around the same time)

Games where it is hard for me to chain attacks into combos:
KoFXIII, BlazBlue, P4A.

Other games could also be hard with execution depending on the characters/moveset:
Tekken (Mishima family, Nina, etc) but Tekken also has a lot of characters that are easy to pick up.

SFIV - Doing combos/chaining attacks together can be hard with certain characters.

DoA - only with certain moves in the command list for certain characters.

UMvC3 - also depends on character.

Conversely, name a fighting game you would consider to require only 'low execution' to play competitively?

I haven't played Dive Kick but understand its concept to know it doesn't require much execution.

Smash Bros. Though, Smash Bros. can be execution heavy depending on how far you want to go in it.

Soul Calibur isn't that hard either.

What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something 'requiring high execution' in a fighting game?

Many things. Individual moves, combos, dashing, etc.

And a bonus question:

Do you believe that characters that require high execution to play properly should be rewarded somehow relative to lower execution characters? (i.e. having unique/better options)
-This is assuming the developer is responsible for the 'reward', and not technology the dev didn't consider(even if the latter is often the case over the former).

Balance is more important. High execution does not mean balance should be sacrificed. This is an area where I think Tekken has excelled. You have characters like Devil Jin, Heihachi, Nina, etc. that are all considered top tier and have considerably hard execution requirements. At the same time, however, learning these characters does not guarantee you have severe advantages over other players that use the lower-tiered/lower-execution characters. You just get more powerful tools in your arsenal whether its proper EWGF or flapping butterfly, which can prove their use in a match. So you get rewarded for learning the higher execution characters but don't necessarily disrupt the balance.

 

[Retro_]

It's just a SF2 Ryu vs Ryu II scenario I am portraying here.

Basically I am saying that a fighting game just has Ryu and Ryu II... but Ryu II's moves are more difficult to perform than Ryu's. The frame data and move properties of all their moves are identical otherwise so on paper they are a 5/5.

As a competitive player... why would you ever pick Ryu II over Ryu in this case?

I get what you're trying to illustrate here

but I think your example lacks practicality in that "high execution" techniques rarely manifest themselves in base moves. Your example is really oversimplified to the point of being meaningless

Like my answer to the guys question of which game REQUIRES high execution to play competitively would be none, but I'm not a top player

 

[Infinite]

It's just a SF2 Ryu vs Ryu II scenario I am portraying here.

Basically I am saying that a fighting game just has Ryu and Ryu II... but Ryu II's moves are more difficult to perform than Ryu's. The frame data and move properties of all their moves are identical otherwise so on paper they are a 5/5.

As a competitive player... why would you ever pick Ryu II over Ryu in this case?

Not that this anecdote directly applies to what you're arguing but when I was knee deep into P4a I picked Yu Narukami as my main. Playing the game against semi competitive folk offline got really boring and I felt it had to do with the character I was playing. His whole game is confirm into sweep into 5D for okizeme. So my games started to look to look the same and -feel- the same because all I need to do was get a knockdown and force this dude to guess and it was little to nothing they could do about it. It was too easy. So I picked up Yosuke, not necessarily a harder character and definitely a weaker character as far as tiers are concerned. But he made the game fun for me again because of his play style or the way you had to use him rather. So my point is people ideally should play whatever is fun for them to play. That's what you get out of video games after all.

 

[Beckx]

So m point is people ideally should play whatever is fun for them too play. That's what you get out of video games after all.

Well said.


---------------

Great to hear about the dedicated connection for FB at SCR. Can't wait to see it.

 

[EarlyEarly]

Holy Flux's big booty! Makoto is nuts in Ultra. Haitani to win EVO confirmed.

 

[sleepykyo]

What if there's a fighting game where every character is 100% balanced... and the only difference among characters is their execution. What incentive would you have to pick a high execution character if you are in it to win? It does not make sense to pick a high execution character in this case... you are just making things hard on yourself for no reason.

Kind of an extreme example. The incentive to play high execution characters would be the satisfaction one gets from being able to win with such characters. For years players could do about as well with Kage or Shun as Akira, yet Akira players preserved anyway.

On the other question. I do believe in giving some slight benefits. eg. The minor damage boost in the true dragon lancer vs. the easy dragon lancer.

Stuff like Akira's (pre vf5) just frame knee or Pat/Setsuka's 1b, b are completely ridiculous. Getting safe, natural launchers at the same speed as other characters' unsafe, natural launchers dramatically skews the mid/throw game in the favor of the high execution.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Champ, Jwong, Gootecks, and Mike Ross are the biggest shills in the FGC. Best to just ignore them when they say "yo this tournament/game/thing is gonna be godlike."

Max and Sabin never came off as anything other than genuine to me. Dudes are genuinely enthused for things that they put out there, and I'm kind of surprised there are people here who think otherwise.

Holy Flux's big booty! Makoto is nuts in Ultra. Haitani to win EVO confirmed.

The PC mod doesn't have delayed wakeup, does it? That's a pretty big deal as far as Makoto's oki concerned. Still though, yeah, Mak's Oki is still gonna be a fair bit stronger in ultra.

 

[enzo_gt]

The thing that sucks about this Microsoft stuff getting out in the open (I believe it always has been happening to an extent) is we could kind of have a McCarthyism like undertone going with whom is a shill or not. Whose opinions we trust and so forth. Like max and art shouldn't have to defend themselves. Or should they? Hehe.

Thank god for demos and loc tests.

I think that if the net gain is that more people are critical and questioning of this sort of stuff, it's only a plus for consumers.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Yea, art and max never come off to me as shills. Or maybe they are really good at it, haha.

Champ, Ross, these guys. I'm not really listening.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Hey FGC-GAF, I wanna ask you some questions about execution.

What is a fighting game made in the past ~6 years that you think requires 'high execution' to play competitively? (Relative to other fighting games made around the same time)

I'd say both KOF XIII and SFIV actually. The former requires you to be fast and accurate with your stick motions while being more lenient when it comes to button presses (by involving fewer strict links and letting you hold buttons for specials). The latter is the other way around, emphasizing buttons presses (1-frame links and using plinking for a better chance to hit them) while letting you get away with murder at times when it comes to stick motions to the extent that you may develop bad habits from it. But at the end of the day even if they implement things to make your life easier, both games retain some sort of difficulty with respect to execution.

Conversely, name a fighting game you would consider to require only 'low execution' to play competitively?

I never got used to the games that are usually the obvious answers to this such as Skullgirls or P4A. The one game I've had experience with that still somewhat fits within the timeframe you specified would be Akatsuki Blitzkampf. Also I'd say DiveKick but I'm not so sure anymore as I don't know how hard some stuff I've been shown actually is.

What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of something 'requiring high execution' in a fighting game?

Strict links especially as the last part of a hit-confirm string.

And a bonus question:

Do you believe that characters that require high execution to play properly should be rewarded somehow relative to lower execution characters? (i.e. having unique/better options)
-This is assuming the developer is responsible for the 'reward', and not technology the dev didn't consider(even if the latter is often the case over the former).

I don't think this is a proper way to design and balance characters in the first place. Rather, I think it makes more sense for each character to have both low execution, basic but still worthwhile tools and more rewarding execution-heavy stuff for you to learn as you stick with that character and try to improve. It's one of the things KOF XIII gets right (well mostly, then again, you have Liz...) and makes learning a new character a less daunting task than you would expect.

 

[Mr. X]

Now if they could only find a way to remove option selects we could have a more pure fighting game.

Fighting have always had option selects. SF2 is full of them, like walking up to throw and getting your normal if they jumped is an option select.

KoF13 and VF have easier execution than SF4.

 

[Dahbomb]

When did Champ last hype something up? I honestly can't remember.

 

[SixMachine]

Probably late to the discussion but funny thing about MadKOF and kof13 is that they have said (on the CafeID stream) that he had pretty bad/unoptimized combos when he started playing it and even all the way to when he won EVO. They say he's gotten more cleaner since then and even watching his match against Bala, I could see the combos he was doing actually weren't hard. Like confirm into rekka drive cancel into dhalsim command normal into rekka and Chin's HD combos are actually pretty easy to loop if you understand what move leads into what. Though the most impressive thing about him was how he controlled the neutral game and managed to confirm off his hits, that's something he learned from years of playing KOFs.

 

[Slamtastic]

When did Champ last hype something up? I honestly can't remember.

his Sinestro dawg

his Glacius dawg

 

[Dahbomb]

his Sinestro dawg

his Glacius dawg

I mean in the context of hyping up a game product... not his own skills.

If hyping up your own skills makes you a shill then FChamp is the Major Nelson of the FGC.

If you mean he hyped up Injustice/KI then he really isn't any more of a shill than either Arturo or Max. And in the case of KI he has been playing that game every day since it came out... he even played a bit of Injustice.