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[LegendofJoe]

that tweet is true, we've abandoned the labor class

Which is pretty dumb if you think about our population dynamics in comparison to the rest of the world. How much sense does it make for the country with the world's 3rd largest population to have the world's most expensive currency?

Labor was doomed as soon as the ink on the Breton Woods agreement dried.

 

[noshten]

more like if sanders supporters can't google on their own and understand how similar the two candidates are, then fuck hillary for not being able to mind-meld with people right? it's not her responsibility to create a more informed voting block by shouting louder than the sanders echo chamber

Like they are the same on Foreign policy - except one takes advise and mentoring from a War Criminal complicit in the genocide of PoC across the world.
Or her stance on the drug war. How about her stance on different trade agreements. What about her absolute hypocrisy on money in politics - Hillary says we need to stop the revolving doors, yet sees no problem in taking huge fees to speak to the same lobbyist groups and corporations who she is apparently going to stop the revolving door to.

But sure continue calling Bernie supporters ignorant, that will truly win people over.

 

[Angelus Errare]

political gaf is filled with agressive hilary stans. they literally just complain about bernie bros in every thread, it's wonderful. real substantive stuff.

Well I mean Bernie complains about Bernie Bros.

 

[Abounder]

Right. Which is why I wanted him to win.

Word. Bernie made a lot of voters realize they're more independent than partisan

 

[phanphare]

Like they are the same on Foreign policy - except one takes advise and mentoring from a War Criminal complicit in the genocide of PoC across the world.
Or her stance on the drug war. How about her stance on different trade agreements. What about her absolute hypocrisy on money in politics - Hillary says we need to stop the revolving doors, yet sees no problem in taking huge fees to speak to the same lobbyist groups and corporations who she is apparently going to stop the revolving door to.

But sure continue calling Bernie supporters ignorant, that will truly win people over.

"93% tho"

 

[Valhelm]

Exactly, Bernie was Democrat in name only

Yeah, it's great. He's the closest the United States has come to a leftist presidency since Eugene Debs

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

This is today? Have to see this

 

[Orbis Tabula]

You guys are right. I'm probably overreacting. It's not as if Bernie is gonna try to set the whole fucking thing on fire. He's shown himself to be a reasonable man.

 

[Tom_Cody]

I definitely want to watch.

 

[Tesseract]

The salt itt tastes like melange

 

[JustenP88]

The victim complex is strong with the Hillary supporters.

So strong. Hillary declines an invitation to a Town Hall. Sanders accepts. Now Sanders is a part of the vast Right-wing conspiracy to attack poor Hillary somehow.

They'd rather have her there! This idea wasn't born out of some sort of collusion between Sanders and Fox to discredit Hillary. The thought of that is hilarious.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Takes massive stones to venture in the lion's den like that to talk about and defend your views.

People see this as an act of betrayal? I see this as an act of confidence. I don't see anyone out there who willingly wants to get his points grilled by the other side. He's not stupid, he's a reasonable man and he knows his stuff.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Word. Bernie made a lot of voters realize they're more independent than partisan

It's a nice thing.

I've seen many conservative minded folks disavow the Republican party and most are not willing to act like card carrying Republicans. The libertarian, non authoritative Republicans tend to support a few candidates, but do not blindly fall in line with the party rhetoric.

And many leftists are clearly not card carrying democrats. There is hardly an organized ideological pure left.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Like they are the same on Foreign policy - except one takes advise and mentoring from a War Criminal complicit in the genocide of PoC across the world.
Or her stance on the drug war. How about her stance on different trade agreements. What about her absolute hypocrisy on money in politics - Hillary says we need to stop the revolving doors, yet sees no problem in taking huge fees to speak to the same lobbyist groups and corporations who she is apparently going to stop the revolving door to.

But sure continue calling Bernie supporters ignorant, that will truly win people over.

yeah one is hyper-left on some issues and the other is center-left. night and day difference. not really

Takes massive stones to venture in the lion's den like that to talk about and defend your views.

People see this as an act of betrayal? I see this as an act of confidence. I don't see anyone out there who willingly wants to get his points grilled by the other side. He's not stupid, he's a reasonable man and he knows his stuff.

this is how i see it. hopefully he brings his a-game because they will absolutely go for any cracks in his foundation

 

[JustenP88]

yeah one is hyper-left on some issues and the other is center-left. night and day difference. not really

Who the hell cares as long as it's not a Republican, amirite?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Investment can be great, but hell no people shouldn't be acting worse than sports fanaticsf

Interest is awesome, but excessive partisanship harms politics.

I'm not going to be salty that people get zealous or emotional about things that have impacts on their very livelihood. If I felt one group was damaging to my rights then you could bet I'd be excessive in my partisanship. If you don't think you would be if you were in a similar position then you're probably either lying or have no clue where such people are coming from.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Apparently she is going to be in the UK doing a fundraiser with Madeleine Albright? At least thats what her schedule shows.

 

[Tesseract]

Hope Bernie is given mozzarella meatballs, Hillary must be knocked down a few

 

[mugurumakensei]

Apparently she is going to be in the UK doing a fundraiser with Madeleine Albright? At least thats what her schedule shows.

So, not only is Hillary not prioritizing speaking to America. She's also reaching out to foreign corporate interests.

 

[Neuromancer]

I already liked him, but I really respect him for this. It will surely be a tough and combative interview, which most candidates would do anything to avoid.

 

[Drek]

Sorry but "the party" is more important than things like honesty or discourse.

Yeah, because his recent efforts to tie the economic hardships of Detroit in particular and Michigan in general to Clinton is super fucking honest, right?

Pretty clear what Sanders, Weaver, and Fox News have planned here. Just ol' Bern doing take #1 for the GOP's fall anti-Clinton campaign. I'm sure he'll get a few more takes in before he steps out of the race, dog whistles Green Party to all of his supporters, then gives a milquetoast "endorsement" of Clinton at the convention.

Such a self serving ideologue.

 

[RustyNails]

So, not only is Hillary not prioritizing speaking to America. She's also reaching out to foreign corporate interests.

Madeline Albright is...foreign?

 

[shoplifter]

Yeah, because his recent efforts to tie the economic hardships of Detroit in particular and Michigan in general to Clinton is super fucking honest, right?

Confirm/Deny that free trade agreements were one reason manufacturing jobs moved out of Michigan, and have hurt labor as a whole. I'm not saying the ONLY reason.

 

[noshten]

yeah one is hyper-left on some issues and the other is center-left. night and day difference. not really

HillGaf has a problem, whatever positions Clinton takes on issues they are fine with it.
She takes advice from the same people who brought you the Iraq war, no questions asked. She is mentored by a person complicit in genocide, no questions asked.
She is fine with trade agreements that are inhumane and opening the US market to known human rights abusers like Brunei and Vietnam, no questions asked.
She knows she is running for president but despite that decides to do a private speaking tour with QA for some of the biggest corporations and lobbyist groups in the World, no questions asked in fact it's terrible that Bernie Sanders is attacking her on her decision according to some posters and this is all happening post OWS and Big Crush.
She is asked if she will stop fracking not only would she not stop it, she has sold it to foreign governments, no questions asked.

Mentioning these things obviously I'm playing into Republican hands cause they are sure to attack Hillary with specifically these issues

Spoiler

/s

Nope these are not Republican talking points, perhaps Trump can use a few of these attacks in GE - but Trump & Bernie were never part of the Clinton plan, she seriously though that she can be coronated with no questions asked. That's the problem with Clinton she wasn't a particularly good candidate in 08 and I'd argue she is a worst candidate right now. If Bernie was 10 years younger she would already had no mathematical chance at the nomination. This has nothing to do with Bernie, Clinton could have easily evolved on her foreign policy after losing in 08, she could have easily denounced different war criminals, she could have decided that Bill could handle the speaking tour, she could have not aggressively pushed against Trade Agreements which we are unable to vet and aren't focused on improving conditions for workers across the World, she could have not aggressively lobbied foreign governments for fracking - she didn't.

Blaming Bernie or his supporters for holding their nose while voting Hills, or not voting, or voting Jill is frankly funny considering the amount of crap the Clinton team and her supporters have thrown at the Sanders campaign. While Clinton simply hasn't evolved enough to actually get young or disenfranchised people excited about her presidency.

 

[jtb]

This is a terrible idea born from desperation.

 

[shoplifter]

This is a terrible idea born from desperation.

Or a genius move to expand his base via reaching working class voters who may open up to his message after hearing it.


\/\/\/ that explains why the manufacturers did poorly in that segment but doesn't explain why many automakers moved plants to Mexico to use the low wages and lack of tariffs to sell the cars in the US. She's obviously not on the hook for legislation she wasn't responsible for. That said, she was openly for NAFTA while she was First Lady, only to take a slightly tougher position in that we didn't negotiate hard enough later on.

 

[Drek]

Confirm/Deny that free trade agreements were one reason manufacturing jobs moved out of Michigan, and have hurt labor as a whole. I'm not saying the ONLY reason.

So which free trade deal did she sign? NAFTA? Because someone is 100% in lockstep with their spouse on all issues and responsible for their legacy?

But again, here is the beauty of the Bernie Bros. flexibility with reality.

NAFTA was signed in '94. Then the UAW agreed to cooperate with American auto manufacturers building factories in Mexico. Then the American auto manufacturers sunk all R&D and marketing budgets into building SUVs because that is what the American people bought. Then 10 years later the price of oil went through the roof, people wanted fuel efficient cars, and all the foreign options were better because those companies had been focused on small cars all along. Sales of U.S. made vehicles crashed, UAW workers got laid off, and the entire economy of the region went in the shitter.

But yeah, I'm sure as first lady over a decade before it all fell apart Hillary was orchestrating shit behind the scenes and pushed NAFTA through single-handed explicitly to sabotage American manufacturing to serve the corporate overlords, right?

The fucking delusion required to believe this shit.

 

[smurfx]

The victim complex is strong with the Hillary supporters.

same applies to bernie supporters.

 

[JustenP88]

Madeline Albright is...foreign?

No... But the UK is, last time I checked.

So which free trade deal did she sign? NAFTA? Because someone is 100% in lockstep with their spouse on all issues and responsible for their legacy?

But again, here is the beauty of the Bernie Bros. flexibility with reality.

NAFTA was signed in '94. Then the UAW agreed to cooperate with American auto manufacturers building factories in Mexico. Then the American auto manufacturers sunk all R&D and marketing budgets into building SUVs because that is what the American people bought. Then 10 years later the price of oil went through the roof, people wanted fuel efficient cars, and all the foreign options were better because those companies had been focused on small cars all along. Sales of U.S. made vehicles crashed, UAW workers got laid off, and the entire economy of the region went in the shitter.

But yeah, I'm sure as first lady over a decade before it all fell apart Hillary was orchestrating shit behind the scenes and pushed NAFTA through single-handed explicitly to sabotage American manufacturing to serve the corporate overlords, right?

The fucking delusion required to believe this shit.

Nobody thinks she actually signed NAFTA...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...25/barack-obama/clinton-has-changed-on-nafta/

 

[Angelus Errare]

same applies to bernie supporters.

Both sides are exactly the same (the only time this statement has even been true in regards to politics)

 

[Drek]

Mentioning these things obviously I'm playing into Republican hands cause they are sure to attack Hillary with specifically these issues

You mentioning these things is a problem because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about but spout some half-assed, half-informed, and I'm assuming half-baked rhetoric you got from someone else.

Do any Bernie Bros. actually know what free trade deals accomplish, other than "stealing American jobs"?

They plant the seed for globaization in countries oftentimes isolated from the rest of the world. The single strongest tool for the spread of democracy and human rights worldwide is the internet. Continuing to support an isolationist trade agenda to theoretically protect U.S. jobs (when that has dubious evidence to support it) at the expense of getting U.S. products that expand global awareness in these countries is borderline fucking immoral.

Do you know the single biggest concern foreign countries have when negotiating trade deals with the U.S. is? The impact opening up their markets to U.S. agriculture would have. World hunger is a problem right? The only way you combat it in many of the world's developing nations is through a free trade deal that introduces U.S. agriculture to their market.

How do you expect the next generation in these countries to be more progressive and globally aware if we won't open the pathways for exchange? The price for that is free trade deals.

For a group who love to fantasize about the post-industrial economy and basic income shouldn't the end result of free trade deals (rushing the U.S. to a post-industrial economy requiring some form of basic income) be the ideal, especially since it improves the economy of 3rd world nations?

But lets just keep that narrative going because the full ramifications and value of free trade deals are hard to understand and union bosses tell you they're bad, so they've got to be.

 

[RustyNails]

No... But the UK is, last time I checked.

Not sure whats that got to do with anything. Suddenly being outside US is bad now? What was the fundraiser for?

 

[CrunchyFrog]

They absolutely want the Vermont Socialist to get the nomination over Hillary Clinton. Absolutely.

They want the socialist to siphon votes and divide the Democrats enough to keep voters at home when the other candidate loses the nom. This race is historically divisive on both sides of the aisle, they could be angling to take advantage of that. Plus at this point Trump is practically guaranteed the GOP ticket, there's nothing that can be done

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

So which free trade deal did she sign?

Not so much of what she has signed (nothing), more so about what she is open to supported by looking at what she has supported in the past.

 

[Goodstyle]

 

[Hellwarden]

For all the talk about the right devouring itself, I get the feeling that in a few elections, the left won't be much different.

 

[Angelus Errare]

For all the talk about the right devouring itself, I get the feeling that in a few elections, the left won't be much different.

The left will be completely fine.

 

[shoplifter]

All of those auto plants would have moved to Mexico anyway, amirite


Of course there are positive aspects to free trade agreements. Unfortunately those positive aspects tend to disproportionately have a negative effect on the middle class in terms of income, while positively affecting shareholders. Yes, for all we like to talk about mincome, etc., you'd think we'd want to get there, but there's no sense in accelerating it with little to no current support for doing so.


\/\/\/ I kind of agree, but only because the people on the far left don't identify as Democrats to begin with.

 

[watershed]

For all the talk about the right devouring itself, I get the feeling that in a few elections, the left won't be much different.

The situations are not even remotely comparable. There are no major fault lines in the democratic coalition or the same kind of disparity between party establishment and base that the GOP has had for a while now.

 

[Slayven]

Left's major problems are midterms and down ticket races.

GOP is having a complete ideological breakdown.

 

[sphagnum]

For all the talk about the right devouring itself, I get the feeling that in a few elections, the left won't be much different.

As long as "democratic socialists"/social democrats learn from Bernie's mistakes this go around in addressing the concerns of non-white communities and campaign messaging, it should be a much easier transition. There will certainly still be a large centrist contingent in the Democratic party but I think we're going to see that fade away as Millennials grow older and start to vote more (in midterms, etc.), supposing they hold to their current beliefs. As automation increases and the faults in capitalism become more strained, it's unlikely that the neoliberals will be able to maintain dominance. They would do well to start transitioning to a left platform now, which is why it's good that Bernie is around sowing the seeds.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Left's major problems are midterms and down ticket races.

GOP is having a complete ideological breakdown.

GOP is having their Frankenstein moment. They created a monster they can't control or kill.

 

[King Tubby]

Left's major problems are midterms and down ticket races.

GOP is having a complete ideological breakdown.

Man don't sugarcoat this, the left needs to get its fucking shit together. I have no doubt the GOP will continue to ratfuck its way into continued relevancy while the donor class still draws breath.

 

[Hellwarden]

The left will be completely fine.

The situations are not even remotely comparable. There are no major fault lines in the democratic coalition or the same kind of disparity between party establishment and base that the GOP has had for a while now.

I don't know about that. The makeup of the country is changing, and young Millennials don't care for old fashion politicians. I'm not saying the left is going to devour itself to the same degree, and they probably won't lose elections.

But I think the democratic party is going to have to adapt.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Both sides are exactly the same (the only time this statement has even been true in regards to politics)

Hahahaha, probably true.

 

[kmag]

I'm not even really blaming Bernie for doing it. He doesn't owe Hilary loyalty when he's still in a primary with her. It's his prerogative if he feels this platform can help him get some votes.

Just know that sound bites from this will be used in Hilary attack ads in the fall tho

When you're at the point of needing snookers to win, and given the delegate math and the realities of proportional allocation of delegates in a two horse race, Bernie's at that point, it's normally considered the done thing to play the ball not the man and avoid damaging attacks on the frontrunner. Instead of that Sanders campaign has gotten very chippy this week.

 

[pigeon]

I really want to know what people who are angry about this think is going to happen.

Is Fox going to ask Bernie negative questions about Hillary? Maybe.

Is Bernie going to say negative things about Hillary? Maybe.

Is he going to say anything he hasn't already said in press conferences or stump speeches? No. Why would he?

So I don't see how this matters at all. Who cares?

 

[SlimySnake]

I'm not even really blaming Bernie for doing it. He doesn't owe Hilary loyalty when he's still in a primary with her. It's his prerogative if he feels this platform can help him get some votes.

Just know that sound bites from this will be used in Hilary attack ads in the fall tho

Who is stopping Hilary from going there and defending herself? If Hilary had any balls she would take Fox News on and destroy them on live t.v on their own network while defending herself.

And I say this as a Hilary supporter. I dont care what she has going on in u.k, it can wait a day or two.

 

[JustenP88]

Not sure whats that got to do with anything. Suddenly being outside US is bad now? What was the fundraiser for?

Being out of the US isn't necessarily a bad thing, but some people aren't too fond of the big, expensive fundraising events and missing out on opportunities to get in front of voters so you can hop across the ocean and make some cash might be bad optics or whatever to some.

Also, I imagine the fundraiser is for money. That seems to be the purpose of most of them.

 

[sphagnum]

When you're at the point of needing snookers to win, and given the delegate math and the realities of proportional allocation of delegates in a two horse race, Bernie's at that point, it's normally considered the done thing to play the ball not the man and avoid damaging attacks on the frontrunner.

I think, frankly, Bernie is more concerned with getting people used to the word socialism in a positive context. He's never been loyal to the Democratic party and he sees no reason to be now because he knows that the vast majority of his voters will vote for Hillary (or rather, against Trump) come November, so he's just going to continue to be the same person he's always been, willing to criticize both Democrats and Republicans. He's the gadfly.

Now, if you're a Hillary fan or a Democrat first and foremost, that can be extremely annoying. But I don't think it will do significant enough damage that it will seriously harm Hillary's chances in the general.