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[OrlanisWorks]

I really, really like that statement. Really. I might steal that, hope you don't mind.

Edit:

Reading through this thread really hits home how many callous, emotionally inept people there are on any given forum. I feel legitimately sad that empathy is so hard for some people.

Agree agree agree.

 

[lewisgone]

The frustrating thing is that if the guy announced "I haven't made very much money off The Stanley Parable" for whatever reason, then came out with this statement, half the people in this thread wouldn't be giving him so much crap.

 

[aeolist]

Does Beiber get the same kind of sympathy thrown his way? After all he had more money than he can spend, thousands of women throwing themselves at him, and has to deal with paparazzi. He might have doubts as to the validity of his relationships, his creativity etc.

i feel incredibly sorry for people like bieber and miley cyrus and britney spears, they have some serious issues with fame and money and they definitely don't seem like happy people

 

[SousedLouse]

Does Beiber get the same kind of sympathy thrown his way? After all he had more money than he can spend, thousands of women throwing themselves at him, and has to deal with paparazzi. He might have doubts as to the validity of his relationships, his creativity etc.

Sure he does. He gets it from his fans, and from people who know about the pressures that fame brings. Even other celebrities express sympathy and empathy because they know what he's dealing with, even if it's on a different scale. And all of those people do it because they think it's good to show support (even if Beiber won't see their comments, they'll add to the overall sentiment), or because they want to let go of some of those vicarious emotions by expressing how they feel about the whole thing.

Those people are dwarfed by the number of people who empathize in passing and go about their day, and even more so by the people who rag on him (either because they can't empathize, or because they want to twist the knife), but they're there all the same.

 

[Burt]

Who's asking him to feel ashamed of himself?

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Giving a shit about what the game "journalists" think.

Please try to have more self-respect than that, dude.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I hope Mr. Wreden can work through these feelings, because I'm interested to see what he thinks of next.

I'll move Stanley Parable up a few notches in my "to play" list. The demo was a unique experience.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

More love, more hate. More spotlight, more scrutiny.

 

[Cyrano]

if we as a species could just start giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say they're hurting we'd be a hell of a lot better off

This would require the world abandoning captialism invading every moment of our lives.

When everyone's lives are based on numbers, it's hard to feel like you're not just another number. See: Generation Like.

 

[MrSerrels]

Yay another whining indy game dev...

Everything that's wrong with the internet and communication in the 21st century. Complete distance and lack of empathy for others.

 

[Riposte]

That page from NEXTWAVE with Machine Man and the Celestials comes to mind. It's not what you feel, but the ridiculous way your brain thought it was okay to express that feeling.



*pause*

...


*white space*

...

lol ok mate

 

[jacksepticeye]

Of course not. Celebrities are at an even higher level of "they're successful therefore they have no problems." See: any thread about paparazzi engaging in shitty behavior. There's always an undertone that a celebrity can't complain or even deserves to be harassed due to their success.

According to GAF they're supposed to forget the hate, laugh all the way to the bank and then go home and sleep on their money

Some people have no capacity for empathy at all and I don't know why.

 

[Shinta]

According to GAF they're supposed to forget the hate, laugh all the way to the bank and then go home and sleep on their money

Some people have no capacity for empathy at all and I don't know why.

Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. One is therapeutic and the other isn't.

 

[Sober]

Do some of you people really think fame and money makes you instantly happy?

Only if you ask the non-creatives, of course they will likely say yes.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. One is therapeutic and the other isn't.

What I was trying to convey was people not being able to put themselves in the other persons shoes and understanding what it's like

Which ever word best describes that, I get them mixed up all the time

 

[HK-47]

Only if you ask the non-creatives, of course they will likely say yes.

There is an angry undercurrent to this post.

 

[boogie2988]

Here's the thing about creative and successful people;

Most people that create THINGS tend to be a bit broken. Whether it be games, or works of fiction, or something as simple as shitty youtube videos, most of these people are creating that thing to try to fill a void in their soul/mind/heart.

Creative people often create because their body/mind says "DO THIS AND SEEK APPROVAL" and when we get that little bit of approval... a few views, a few downloads, a few positive reviews... it feels great.

So we create more, to try to fill that void, to try to shut it entirely. You create and create and create.

I think what all successful creators eventually discover is that you can never fill that void, it is an unending chasm and even if you create something great that the world loves, you'll never stop feeling the need to create. You'll still seek other's approval even when you've grown to find it far less rewarding as it once was.

Basically, any successful creation is met with guesswork as to why this beloved thing you have made does not make you feel whole.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Here's the thing about creative and successful people;

Most people that create THINGS tend to be a bit broken. Whether it be games, or works of fiction, or something as simple as shitty youtube videos, most of these people are creating that thing to try to fill a void in their soul/mind/heart.

Creative people often create because their body/mind says "DO THIS AND SEEK APPROVAL" and when we get that little bit of approval... a few views, a few downloads, a few positive reviews... it feels great.

So we create more, to try to fill that void, to try to shut it entirely. You create and create and create.

I think what all successful creators eventually discover is that you can never fill that void, it is an unending chasm and even if you create something great that the world loves, you'll never stop feeling the need to create. You'll still seek other's approval even when you've grown to find it far less rewarding as it once was.

Basically, any successful creation is met with guesswork as to why this beloved thing you have made does not make you feel whole.

As always, well said.

I think this is also why the hateful comments or posts on your creative product stick a lot more than the praise. You end up wondering why you're not good enough or why people aren't praising the product you made fulfilling that need for validation.

That's also why I feel youtube is very addictive once you get any way decent at it.

 

[Cyrano]

"DO THIS AND SEEK APPROVAL"

The answer's right here. You can seek approval forever, but because it's impossible to know if it's genuine, you'll continue to doubt. It's a cycle that requires appreciation of truth from an outside source, when truth can only be held internally.

 

[Sky Chief]

I totally understand where he is coming from because for a long time I relied on the approval of others to validate myself.

However, releasing this comic will likely do more harm than good as again he is seeking approval and from the vast majority of the replies in this thread he is getting very little of that or sympathy.

I hope he is getting some professional therapy because that worked wonders for me and my happiness and even though I think telling your story can be therapeutic and help others I hope he is not taking the internet response to this personally.

 

[TriniTrin]

Jeezz..... is every indie developer like this?! Seems like all I ever hear from successful indie devs is stuff like this.

 

[Shinta]

Here's the thing about creative and successful people;

Most people that create THINGS tend to be a bit broken. Whether it be games, or works of fiction, or something as simple as shitty youtube videos, most of these people are creating that thing to try to fill a void in their soul/mind/heart.

Creative people often create because their body/mind says "DO THIS AND SEEK APPROVAL" and when we get that little bit of approval... a few views, a few downloads, a few positive reviews... it feels great.

So we create more, to try to fill that void, to try to shut it entirely. You create and create and create.

I think what all successful creators eventually discover is that you can never fill that void, it is an unending chasm and even if you create something great that the world loves, you'll never stop feeling the need to create. You'll still seek other's approval even when you've grown to find it far less rewarding as it once was.

Basically, any successful creation is met with guesswork as to why this beloved thing you have made does not make you feel whole.

I think that might very well be true for some artists, but definitely not all.

All people struggle with the balance between meaning, approval, and the satisfaction of accomplishing things. All people start out with the traits needed to create art or build things. One of the big distinctions that separates people out into "creatives" and "non-creatives" (a distinction I don't agree really exists), is the reality of surviving in a competitive capitalist society. If everyone had the ability to get paid to be creative, they would do just that. That's why a huge number of people that see someone doing that, yet still complaining about it, see that as a very low priority problem. A great many professions don't get any real acknowledgement at all, let alone fame, or extensive money (let alone enough acknowledgement that someone actually becomes "addicted" to it). All these people still are creative though, which is why they like playing games, watching movies, or reading books. If everyone wasn't inherently capable of creativity, no one would ever support professional artists. The distinction isn't psychological, it's more of a matter of economics, or art education / training access.

Also, I don't think all artists create things to seek approval. Most of the best ones couldn't care less about approval, and just create art for themselves. That's the best way to produce truly original art anyway. A lot of the best artists weren't ever famous until after they died.

And honestly, I don't think all artists are "broken" people either. That's just a huge generalization that fits for a small number of people. Being in a profession that allows you to express yourself is more healthy than most professions, not less. Is the career accountant not broken inside ever? What about the hospice nurse whose job it is to watch people die? Is she not battling emotions of worth and meaning inside, just because she's not making youtube videos?

I don't think there's much lack of empathy in this thread, because I think everyone knows how it would be like if their career let them express themselves, while rewarding them with fame and money. It would be massively better than their current career in most cases. What you're not seeing though, is much sympathy. And that's because this guy is in a much better position than most of the people reading this thread.

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation," or so the saying goes. It's not a trait only artists feel. Artists are only ever recognized, because all people can identify with creative expressions of innately human experiences.

And why you throw "successful" people into this, I have no idea. They're more broken then unsuccessful people? What?

 

[Cyrano]

I think that might very well be true for some artists, but definitely not all.

I would actually say that seeking approval is true for most people, in most societies. It would seem strange that we would institutionalize it at all levels of our lives otherwise. Establishing hierarchical structures for management, education and military seems odd unless there is a large societal push for it to be the dominant social structure. Egalitarian systems are few and far between in either the business or artistic world. Part of this is because capitalism is an awful system for managing value, but another part of it is because of our natural predilection towards the herd. It's even played out online via Facebook "Likes" Twitter "retweets" and even here on this forum. Even without capitalism, that sort of collective hivemind would not simply disappear.

My belief is that, likely as you, everyone is sacrificing themselves for something, and society views those sacrifices differently, differently valued, differently viewed, differently appreciated. Whether or not someone is sacrificing more of themselves is similarly largely a question of where they're placed in society by that culture. The capitalistic part of that just corrupts a lot of those intangibles with numbers, which we have unfortunately coupled together with success. Interesting to note though that the most successful (the 1% if you like), do tend to end up in the dark tetrad a lot more often than others though.

 

[Gxgear]

Can't do worse than Phil Fish.

 

[squall23]

I really, really like that statement. Really. I might steal that, hope you don't mind.

Edit:

Reading through this thread really hits home how many callous, emotionally inept people there are on any given forum. I feel legitimately sad that empathy is so hard for some people.

Empathy and sympathy are 2 different things and aren't mutually inclusive. I can understand a gambler losing all his money and being empathetic to his situation, that doesn't me I have to sympathize and pity him for it.

 

[Turin Turambar]

these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with. Also, why would anyone feel to make a comic book about it and post it on the web?

Talking and sharing emotions and thoughts. How he dares!

 

[TetraGenesis]

Here's the thing about creative and successful people;

Most people that create THINGS tend to be a bit broken. Whether it be games, or works of fiction, or something as simple as shitty youtube videos, most of these people are creating that thing to try to fill a void in their soul/mind/heart.

Creative people often create because their body/mind says "DO THIS AND SEEK APPROVAL" and when we get that little bit of approval... a few views, a few downloads, a few positive reviews... it feels great.

So we create more, to try to fill that void, to try to shut it entirely. You create and create and create.

I think what all successful creators eventually discover is that you can never fill that void, it is an unending chasm and even if you create something great that the world loves, you'll never stop feeling the need to create. You'll still seek other's approval even when you've grown to find it far less rewarding as it once was.

Basically, any successful creation is met with guesswork as to why this beloved thing you have made does not make you feel whole.

So fucking true. Wonderfully put, Boogie.

 

[Dali]

I think that might very well be true for some artists, but definitely not all.

All people struggle with the balance between meaning, approval, and the satisfaction of accomplishing things. All people start out with the traits needed to create art or build things. One of the big distinctions that separates people out into "creatives" and "non-creatives" (a distinction I don't agree really exists), is the reality of surviving in a competitive capitalist society. If everyone had the ability to get paid to be creative, they would do just that. That's why a huge number of people that see someone doing that, yet still complaining about it, see that as a very low priority problem. A great many professions don't get any real acknowledgement at all, let alone fame, or extensive money (let alone enough acknowledgement that someone actually becomes "addicted" to it). All these people still are creative though, which is why they like playing games, watching movies, or reading books. If everyone wasn't inherently capable of creativity, no one would ever support professional artists. The distinction isn't psychological, it's more of a matter of economics, or art education / training access.

Also, I don't think all artists create things to seek approval. Most of the best ones couldn't care less about approval, and just create art for themselves. That's the best way to produce truly original art anyway. A lot of the best artists weren't ever famous until after they died.

And honestly, I don't think all artists are "broken" people either. That's just a huge generalization that fits for a small number of people. Being in a profession that allows you to express yourself is more healthy than most professions, not less. Is the career accountant not broken inside ever? What about the hospice nurse whose job it is to watch people die? Is she not battling emotions of worth and meaning inside, just because she's not making youtube videos?

I don't think there's much lack of empathy in this thread, because I think everyone knows how it would be like if their career let them express themselves, while rewarding them with fame and money. It would be massively better than their current career in most cases. What you're not seeing though, is much sympathy. And that's because this guy is in a much better position than most of the people reading this thread.

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation," or so the saying goes. It's not a trait only artists feel. Artists are only ever recognized, because all people can identify with creative expressions of innately human experiences.

And why you throw "successful" people into this, I have no idea. They're more broken then unsuccessful people? What?

I think this is an excellent counter to boogie's post almost every point I disagreed with starting with his presumptions about all creative types you delineated and addressed.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I think this is an excellent counter to boogie's post almost every point I disagreed with starting with his presumptions about all creative types you delineated and addressed.

Agreed. Shinta couldn't have responded better.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

How do AAA devs feel about this stuff? How come we never hear this kind of talk from the guys at Rockstar or Naughty Dog?

 

[kick51]

bleh

 

[Messofanego]

Jeezz..... is every indie developer like this?! Seems like all I ever hear from successful indie devs is stuff like this.

How do AAA devs feel about this stuff? How come we never hear this kind of talk from the guys at Rockstar or Naughty Dog?

When you're the main person responsible for most of the project, I can see the issues working in however big or small the production. Even if you're in a 5 man project, it won't seem as intense compared to one or two man projects because you're not heading up everything. I'm guessing in a AAA project, most of the roles are delegated and you're working on one little thing compared to the whole so you don't have as much attention towards you. Maybe Ken Levine or other lead developers/creative directors feel the same way as they're heading up most of the design decisions, who knows. Maybe they're not allowed to have blogs or whatever to put down their innermost thoughts.

But I don't think we should generalise a whole set of game developers because a few developers speak up about these issues. Just that some people deal with it better and some don't, so you don't hear from the former and it gives off a certain impression.

 

[Wiktor]

How do AAA devs feel about this stuff? How come we never hear this kind of talk from the guys at Rockstar or Naughty Dog?

Because at AAA devs nobody is truly a creator of the game, just petite parts of it.

 

[woo and indeed hoo]

I'm not sue wht that expression means, but I agree with your first point. While we might all have our different perspective on his attitude, what matters is what he's trying to say.

Not anymore, no. A very wealthy individual showed me money doesn't buy everything. It seems to fall short a bit.

Edit: That's not to say that money didn't bring him some happiness. Being able to travel every other week to a new country was an amazing experience for him. Money can bring you happiness. Money doesn't mean that it'll make this developer's complaints any less real.

'hair of the dog' refers to drinking alcohol to ease a bad hangover.

Oh and put me in the empathy/compassion camp.

Hope he is able to find a way to deal with the pretty apparent underlying issues that he has in a way which makes for being alive and being him a far more enjoyable experience.

I was rather moved by his piece that is quoted in the OP. he draw gud

Well done him for having the bravery to illuminate what success can do to one and demonstrate that it's not all smiles and champagne forever more.

 

[stuminus3]

Success and emotional problems are not mutually exclusive and I for one am quite disgusted at some of the replies in this thread that seem to indicate otherwise.

It doesn't matter who you are. Sometimes you've got no choice but to let the black dog in.

 

[besada]

How do AAA devs feel about this stuff? How come we never hear this kind of talk from the guys at Rockstar or Naughty Dog?

I think an awful lot of this thread is a pretty good reason we don't hear about these feelings more often. And people are different, anyway. This is one man's emotional response to sudden fame, adulation, and vitriol.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I'm not really getting "Why don't more people give me GOTY awards!?!" but rather his interpretation that most of the praise is hollow and in the end he gets a feeling of not really achieve anything. It's less a plea for attention and more the opposite really, assuming said-attention is just polite but mostly pretty bland and shallow pleasantries that makes all his work feel pointless.

While I didn't play the full-release game, I had a ton of fun with the original mod a few years ago and it sucks to see the success hasn't really done much for him. I probably don't have it nearly as bad but I still get those weird conflicting feelings when I make something I'm pretty frustrated with and feels looks pretty objectively worse than other examples and people close to me still go WOW THAT LOOKS GREAT. Obviously they don't mean anything by it, but it gets really aggravating and can suck the enthusiasm out of your work, especially if it's something you spent the better part of a year spending all your spare-time on.

Multiply that by a thousand when it's a commercially released game and I can imagine it being far worse. Normally I'd roll my eyes at these sort of 'stream of consciousness' posts from developers since it comes across as self-indulgent (like Cage saying he'd have quit the games industry if people didn't 'get' Heavy Rain), but at least for once I can sympathize with what Davey Wreden's trying to say.