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[HP_Wuvcraft]

Actually, It’s About failing at Ethics In Games Journalism

I'm sorry, but I'm so goddamn sick of this meme.

 

[L Thammy]

Speaking of laughing at Gators,

...Speaking of Gators being horrible,

 

[chaobreaker]

Speaking of laughing at Gators,


...Speaking of Gators being horrible,

When did cuckholding slang? Is it some 8chan thing cause I never seen it on 4chan.

 

[Alcoremortis]

When did cuckholding slang? Is it some 8chan thing cause I never seen it on 4chan.

It was in the original Zoe post threads on 4chan.

 

[chaobreaker]

It was in the original Zoe post threads on 4chan.

So I guess it's only used by the super racist boards then. Gotcha.

 

[Alcoremortis]

So I guess it's only used by the super racist boards then. Gotcha.

...I'm not sure how cuckhold is a racist term? Maybe I've missed something, but my only exposure to it prior has been Shakespeare.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I'm really mad that schools are actively teaching the 50% of time to "both sides" bullshit that has ruined any sort of progress on issues like climate change and given the public in America the idea that there's even a debate about evolution. Don't be the people talked about in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

Is 15 bigger than 5?

Do owls exist?

Are there hats?

We report the controversy, you decide!

 

[chaobreaker]

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot.

 

[Mesoian]

Is 15 bigger than 5?

Do owls exist?

Are there hats?

We report the controversy, you decide!

Owls Exist.

I've seen them.

 

[shanshan310]

Has this video been posted yet? I thought it was pretty funny.

Gamergate makeup tutorial

And then I looked at the comments :/

 

[Corpekata]

They're using it to say he's a weak man that's been cuckholded by his wife / girlfriend. One of the main conspiracy theories about the owner of 4 chan is that his girlfriend brainwashed him into becoming the evil SJW he is (ignoring the leagues of other heinous shit still on 4chan).

It's also frequently thrown at Anthony Burch.

 

[Flame Lord]

It's not inherently a racist term, but I highly doubt that they aren't using it to imply having (assuming gay) sex with another race (usually black) is disgusting.

I... Think you may be mistaking it with another term.

Wiki Def:

Cuckold historically referred to a husband with an adulterous wife and is still often used with this meaning. In evolutionary biology, the term cuckold is also applied to males who are unwittingly investing parental effort in offspring that are not genetically their own.

Urban Dictionary: (Just to give two different perspectives)

A sexually inadequate husband who accepts his wife's pussy is her solely property and she alone decides which men she will fuck,even if it means denying her husband. His only access to her pussy is to clean it of the ejaculate of males she chooses to fuck.

 

[chaobreaker]

Oh god I confused the mandingo fetish with cuckholding.

Why do I know these weird fetishes? Gotta stop watching VICE docs.

 

[SZips]

This GG block list from @freebsdgirl coupled with this relatively crude Chrome extension from @kentbrew are just the best things in the world right now if you use Twitter.

Edit: I should mention that the extension makes use of the list of names to automatically block people associated with GG. It's certainly not a catch all and it may catch a few people not affiliated with GG due to its detection methods. I can't say I've hit any snags though after using it.

Another edit: Alternatively, you can subscribe to the list on Block Together. It just went live there.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Has this video been posted yet? I thought it was pretty funny.

Gamergate makeup tutorial

And then I looked at the comments :/

I looked, God help me I looked

It really pissed me off when people say "as a black man, I don't give a shit about diversity"

Like, ok so you don't care but don't present that as some kind of pass for others

 

[chaobreaker]

I looked, God help me I looked

It really pissed me off when people say "as a black man, I don't give a shit about diversity"

Like, ok so you don't care but don't present that as some kind of pass for others

Could be a GG sockpuppet. I'm pretty sure no actual minority is unironically using #notyourshield anymore.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Could be a GG sockpuppet. I'm pretty sure no actual minority is unironically using #notyourshield anymore.

you would be sadly surprised...

I've had some very harsh words with people over this.

 

[shanshan310]

I looked, God help me I looked

It really pissed me off when people say "as a black man, I don't give a shit about diversity"

Like, ok so you don't care but don't present that as some kind of pass for others

mm exactly

and then there are the people who add on "because I'm a real gamer". Arggklfdjglkdfg I just can't.

 

[ibyea]

He had a long track record of disingenuous arguments in favor of GG and treated any form of criticism as a baseless personal attack. Culminated with his "last stand" where he made some statements alluding to self-harm and seemingly blamed his "attackers" on GAF for anything that might happen to him. It was a really shitty protracted meltdown.

Wow, when did that happen? I seem to have missed it. I thought he was a decent guy, even if I disagreed with him in some parts.

 

[vcc]

Wow, when did that happen? I seem to have missed it. I thought he was a decent guy, even if I disagreed with him in some parts.

I spoke to him just before. Like most of #GG he had a tough time addressing any of the problems with #GG and just had this weird angle of making everything about him and how others thought of him. It was depressing seeing someone I thought well of, behaving like that and throwing out nonsensical talking points.

 

[vcc]

Could be a GG sockpuppet. I'm pretty sure no actual minority is unironically using #notyourshield anymore.

For some people, their identity in #GG is stronger than anything else they have. Its also tough being a young person of a minority so they enjoy the acceptance.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The Holocaust denier left #GG along with a bunch of others, this thing seems to be dying down. Colbert "feeding the trolls" just slaughtered them.

 

[tonysidaway]

She has to get killed first to be allowed to speak.

The ghost of Joseph Heller haunts Gamergate.

 

[pantsonhead]

The Holocaust denier left #GG along with a bunch of others, this thing seems to be dying down. Colbert "feeding the trolls" just slaughtered them.

God bless Colbert.

 

[tonysidaway]

The Holocaust denier left #GG along with a bunch of others, this thing seems to be dying down. Colbert "feeding the trolls" just slaughtered them.

I wouldn't go that far, but in the past week or so a number of formerly prominent gaters have announced burnout or otherwise distanced themselves from this harassment campaign.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I wouldn't go that far, but in the past week or so a number of formerly prominent gaters have announced burnout or otherwise distanced themselves from this harassment campaign.

Most likely many of the ones who were in it for personal gain have realized it's not worth the trouble of the implications that were extremely obvious to everyone else.

 

[Trame]

Most likely many of the ones who were in it for personal gain have realized it's not worth the trouble of the implications that were extremely obvious to everyone else.

What's incredible is that TotalBiscuit has increased his promotion of the movement over roughly the same time period, despite being maybe the only major face of the movement who is not a conservative pseudo-ideologue (internet pundit) or actual conservative ideologue

He seems to think that - rather than just admitting he was wrong - he'll be able to carry GamerGate solely on the back of his own YouTube popularity. Which is a strategy I don't think will work and very well might backfire. People like TotalBiscuit won't ever lose their viewers as long as they continue to make videos about games, but his vocal support for the movement is going to change the way people view him in the industry.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, Oliver Campbell, who previously said the FBI and DHS were aware of people outside GamerGate fabricating harassment and claimed the FTC was investigating unspecified outlets, has clarified he has never met and does not know his source, but rather was contacted out of the blue by someone and presumably provided a photograph of government ID or other credentials (he doesn't outright say he has a photo, but since he claims to have not met his source and to have seen their credentials, it's probably what happened). As support for this he retweets RogueStarGamez "confirming" that the source is real.

So it's looking more and more like the theory that he's being trolled, rather than making it up, was right. Or, you know, the most unprofessional government agent is alive is leaking information about active investigations not just to Oliver Campbell, but also to RogueStar.

Oliver Campbell also offers something up about anti-trust laws with regard to his leaks, and I feel he's out of his mind if he thinks the FTC is investigating video game websites for anti-trust violations, when they barely care about ISPs with near-monopolies

 

[TedNindo]

What you think is the wise part of you is actually the egocentric part. Sorry bud.

I'm not claiming to be wise or wiser than anyone. I just think that I myself have started to understand a lot of things better for myself and how I view the world around me. But I can see how my post would make you react this way. Not siding myself doesn't make me self-centered. I'm seeing everyones concerns here.

I'm also not saying that you can't have an opinion. I have an opinion about this whole ordeal but it doesn't have a side in this because there isn't a clear side on everything because things are more complex than just being black and white. This world is just a lot of veriations of grey imo.

I'm critical of this entire situation tbh. Why does everything have to be so polarising?

 

[Lalalandia]

I'm critical of this entire situation tbh. Why does everything have to be so polarising?

GG is an aggressive hate campaign you are either for or against it, of course it is going to be polarising. Within the against it camps will be folks who actively oppose (as with any hate group) and a larger majority that just think they're wrong. It's not some petty framerate/resolution/parity BS this is people getting death threats and bomb alerts

 

[Fantastapotamus]

And then I looked at the comments :/

Do you have a problem with a rational and a civil discussion? After all, the only reason why Anita disabled the comments on her videos is cause she is afraid of all the hard hitting, well formulated and fair criticism that might come from them. Like in this video!

s

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Huh. This thread didn't gain a single page since I went to bed last night. Typically when I check it in the morning there's about an hours worth of new stuff to read. Though this means I have another hour of work to kill, could this be a good sign that GG is finally receding?

Or is it just another calm before a storm.

 

[Lime]

I'm not claiming to be wise or wiser than anyone. I just think that I myself have started to understand a lot of things better for myself and how I view the world around me. But I can see how my post would make you react this way. Not siding myself doesn't make me self-centered. I'm seeing everyones concerns here.

I'm also not saying that you can't have an opinion. I have an opinion about this whole ordeal but it doesn't have a side in this because there isn't a clear side on everything because things are more complex than just being black and white. This world is just a lot of veriations of grey imo.

I'm critical of this entire situation tbh. Why does everything have to be so polarising?

When you start by saying that you're grabbing popcorn to watch and enjoy the controversy, you send a signal that you think this is just entertainment for your pleasure. In this way, you state that the suffering and pain of others, i.e. the ones harassed, is simply a joke to you.

You should reconsider how you approach things.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Speaking of laughing at Gators,

Holy shit, these guys have no perspective.

 

[Lalalandia]

Has this video been posted yet? I thought it was pretty funny.

Gamergate makeup tutorial

And then I looked at the comments :/

Sigh she's put the video unlisted and apologised to her fans on twitter, I can't blame her really I think a lot of folks have been shocked at the vitriol that saying straight forward things about GG can bring. From her Twitter feed "there's always a bouquet of toots in the comments, but if i'm being real this time, some of them really got to me haha !"

 

[TedNindo]

GG is an aggressive hate campaign you are either for or against it, of course it is going to be polarising. Within the against it camps will be folks who actively oppose (as with any hate group) and a larger majority that just think they're wrong. It's not some petty framerate/resolution/parity BS this is people getting death threats and bomb alerts

As a group it does seem that way. But its oversimplifying things imo. There are individuals anonymous or otherwise that have valid concerns and criticisms that are lost in an ocean of internet exaggeration.
I can understand dismissing gamergate supporters as a group. But not all of them as individuals.
Because as I see it there are A LOT of different views and opinions within gamergate.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

As a group it does seem that way. But its oversimplifying things imo. There are individuals anonymous or otherwise that have valid concerns and criticisms that are lost in an ocean of internet exaggeration.
I can understand dismissing gamergate supporters as a group. But not all of them as individuals.

Nah

Anyone with common sense, decency, and open eyes would have dropped any association quickly once confronted with the truth. Gamergate is extremely transparent and there's no necessary to be part of a group to pursue any legitimate claims or issues one might have with the games industry or games journalism.

People still willing to be associated with it simply don't care about the harassment, suffering, and lost or turned away talent.

 

[Orayn]

Gators have been threatening Jim Sterling's family now. You just sit back with that fucking popcorn and watch this for your amusement dude.

 

[Amir0x]

Nah

Anyone with common sense, decency, and open eyes would have dropped any association quickly once confronted with the truth. Gamergate is extremely transparent and there's no necessary to be part of a group to pursue any legitimate claims or issues one might have with the games industry or games journalism.

People still willing to be associated with it simply don't care about the harassment, suffering, and lost or turned away talent.

I don't think that's true though, which is why Gamergate was so problematic. HULK wrote a great piece about this phenomenon, and why it makes this situation all the more problematic.

The duplicitous core at the heart of the issues has been seen for what it is... but with such certainty re: the relative merits of gamergate itself, HULK would still argue what is perhaps getting lost in all of this is the legitimacy of how many people are still on the wrong side of gamergate because of its inherent association with positive things in their life - and how many really, truly don't realize they are on the wrong side of this and think they are helping. Because no, it's not all duplicitous backroom chatter and intentional manipulation. From hulk's viewpoint, there's been a lot of young people simply rallying around vague notions of goodness.

These tend to be a lot of sensitive people. a lot of people who really, honestly think this is about ethics. and they do not think this out of delusion, but out of simple lack of awareness. And it is easy to dismiss such sentiment and throw them in with the manipulators... but these are the people who HULK most hears from. They are real.

...

Now... if all this trouble were just relegated to the tower of babel version of the internet, then this would normally be no problem. The potency of outsider opinions are most often helped by the fact that they disorganized, distant and separate. But the problem with the potency of gamergate is that all those who fervently argue that this is not about sexism are then somehow able to bind their efforts into a fist to attack female developers / female writers instantly, along with the companies that support them on any level... and HULK'S pretty sure that many of them don't even realize that's exactly what they're taking part of.

You have to understand how problematic this is. It's almost thought to be impossible. What has essentially happened is that we have taken a cult behavioral approach to discussion and philosophy - normally a really difficult thing to instill into people and requires isolation, direct programming and full-on cultural separation - and turned it into something that has been casually learned on the internet's proverbial streets through the organic process of being a part of video game's most toxic subculture.

This is one of the scariest things HULK has ever seen.

Link

The movement is undoubtedly based on hate. There is not a single substantive core to it, and there are plenty of people who know the origins or who grasp its full implications and still don't give a fuck, they still want part of this grotesque thing. But there are innocents - I've spoken with many of them. These people really just so deeply associate with their identity as a gamer that the "ruse" - the ghost cover used to make the movement seem legitimate - really does fool them, because they want to be fooled. They want to feel like they're part of some group that respects their wants and desires, and don't grasp that it's being used as a front for hate and has always been that way. They "feel" something is wrong, and that emotional reaction governs their entire ability to reason. Hulk compares it to 9/11 truthers, and it's never been more true.

 

[SwissLion]

As a group it does seem that way. But its oversimplifying things imo. There are individuals anonymous or otherwise that have valid concerns and criticisms that are lost in an ocean of internet exaggeration.
I can understand dismissing gamergate supporters as a group. But not all of them as individuals.
Because as I see it there are A LOT of different views and opinions within gamergate.

They shouldn't have dived into that ocean then.

But seeing as you've apparently managed to plumb the depths of said ocean and find these pearls of valid concern maybe you can enlighten us on the nature of one or two of them.

Also hey guys! Thanks for the kind words about the article. Currently sitting at #4 highest voted all-time post on GamerGhazi which is pretty cool.

Woke up to a couple hundred twitter notifications but haven't caught any shit for it yet. GamerGate response I've seen has been...predictable.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't think that's true though, which is why Gamergate was so problematic. HULK wrote a great piece about this phenomenon, and why it makes this situation all the more problematic.


The movement is undoubtedly based on hate. There is not a single substantive core to it, and there are plenty of people who know the origins or who grasp its full implications and still don't give a fuck, they still want part of this grotesque thing. But there are innocents - I've spoken with many of them. These people really just so deeply associate with their identity as a gamer that the "ruse" - the ghost cover used to make the movement seem legitimate - really does fool them, because they want to be fooled. They want to feel like they're part of some group that respects their wants and desires, and don't grasp that it's being used as a front for hate and has always been that way. They "feel" something is wrong, and that emotional reaction governs their entire ability to reason. Hulk compares it to 9/11 truthers, and it's never been more true.

I think people like the ones you are describing are the ones who drop it when presented with facts. Anyone else is bullshitting or maybe just doesn't have the intelligence to get it. There shouldn't be anything about being a gamer that trumps empathy and common sense.

It's not like there's any shortage of readily available, highly visible documentation showing what Gamergate is about. Nothing in that should convince anyone that they're even capable of bringing about anything that's a net positive, or that they're even trying to accomplish anything positive.

 

[MYeager]

As a group it does seem that way. But its oversimplifying things imo. There are individuals anonymous or otherwise that have valid concerns and criticisms that are lost in an ocean of internet exaggeration.
I can understand dismissing gamergate supporters as a group. But not all of them as individuals.
Because as I see it there are A LOT of different views and opinions within gamergate.

And those people willingly continue to associate themselves with a hate campaign whose most prominent voices have been a transphobic Brietbart reporter who just a few months ago was mocking gamers, a non-practicing lawyer who denies that date rape exists and isn't a gamer, Vox Day, a 'developer' who has never released a game and didn't fulfill his kickstarter but wants to burn everything down, a guy who doxxes people within the movement, and until recently a holocaust denier. Their main board is on 8chan and where they use a lot of racist and homophobic slurs while hiding behind #notyourshield, and they have a creepy obsession with several women who they use nicknames for and aren't game journalists.

There are likely individuals who have concerns about feeling left out from a media that they feel should represent them too. But if they felt that attaching themselves to this group was a great idea to voice those concerns they're misguided at best.

 

[Amir0x]

I think people like the ones you are describing are the ones who drop it when presented with facts. Anyone else is bullshitting or maybe just doesn't have the intelligence to get it. There shouldn't be anything about being a gamer that trumps empathy and common sense.

It's not like there's any shortage of readily available, highly visible documentation showing what Gamergate is about. Nothing in that should convince anyone that they're even capable of bringing about anything that's a net positive, or that they're even trying to accomplish anything positive.

It may be something to hope for, but human behavior consistently shows us that's just not how many people operate.

To keep harping on the 9/11 truther comparison, do you think they're vile people who just refuse to listen to reality? Or do you think they really believe this stuff?

Again, from HULK:

But beyond that, in any conversation you are also dealing with an emotional truth. It's a thing someone believes is true off the internal feeling they have, or what they want to be true, or what they think must be true for the sake of compassion. The problem with this particular truth is it is both necessary to being a functional person (as it is the thing that allows us to have empathy and kindness in our interactions) and yet also something that is hideously misused. For every ounce of compassion it can well up in us, it also can be used to unfairly denounce actual facts and pervert the truth.

For instance, 9/11 trutherism is a completely inaccurate bit of nonsense, unfounded in every discipline it touches, but it is still propagated by the simple act of someone distrusting government so severely that they place themselves above the fray of being manipulated. That's how powerful emotional truths are. They can take everything we understand about reality and flip it on its head. And often, it's so powerful that many are not aware when they've come to believe something because of their emotional truth. And wouldn't you know it, but the more tenuous the factual claim becomes, the more an emotional truth it becomes.

But the real danger of understanding the emotional truth is it is something that they can use right back against you. With the 9/11 truthers, all your science just becomes truth that you are part of the "sheeple," someone who just wants to pull the wool over their eyes because "the truth" scares them. Which just means that anyone can challenge virtually anything you believe on the same grounds and anything can now fall into disrepute. In this lens, the mainstream media suddenly becomes inept. With gamergate, we're all a bunch of idiots who can have our eyes blinded in our commitment to stopping sexism and loving feminists that we ignore corrupt journalism, etc. etc... when you don't understand how easy it is to flip the script without holding yourself to factual standards, conversations can get really, really dangerous.

In other words, because these are people who have inherently felt there was something "wrong", that this is an hobby that they may have personally taken a lot of shit for in their life, the "emotional truth" that something is wrong becomes all encompassing, to the point where any silver-tongued snake can co-opt these innocents into believing anything. What's worse, because it's an "emotional truth", these ideals become MORE hardened the more facts you show them: they become elements of the 'other' that has been offending them all their life, just more 'evidence' from a world that doesn't understand them or their ideals.

For these people, they got into the movement thinking from the start it really was about ethics in journalism (which they already typically have a profound misunderstanding of, making it even easier to manipulate), and any little shred that shows they might be right is highlight for their worldview (say, a tweet from someone jokingly saying bullying should return for GG), and the mountain of evidence showing how it's wrong just becomes more persecution from people who - in their estimation - were causing the problem in the first place.

It's a horrible cycle. But I do think that's what made this whole now crumbling movement so terrible. So many legitimately good people got broiled in it that it has made it very hard not to be suspect about a good many people who before we'd all be on the same page with.

 

[gogoud]

Gators have been threatening Jim Sterling's family now. You just sit back with that fucking popcorn and watch this for your amusement dude.

Is there proof that it's gators or are we saying since this group is riddled with anonymity and that because a gaming celebrity is harassed it's going to be the gators doing it?

I hope there's proof. All the harassment has to stop and I hope there is a way to find the people responsible.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Gators have been threatening Jim Sterling's family now. You just sit back with that fucking popcorn and watch this for your amusement dude.

I'm sure none of them are actually representing Gamergate though!

 

[The Technomancer]

Is there proof that it's gators or are we saying since this group is riddled with anonymity and that because a gaming celebrity is harassed it's going to be the gators doing it?

I hope there's proof. All the harassment has to stop and I hope there is a way to find the people responsible.

There doesn't need to be "proof". Anyone can claim to be a GamerGater and be as valid as anyone else because there is no authority within the movement about what it represents. Either everything is in, or everything is out.

 

[Orayn]

Is there proof that it's gators or are we saying since this group is riddled with anonymity and that because a gaming celebrity is harassed it's going to be the gators doing it?

I hope there's proof. All the harassment has to stop and I hope there is a way to find the people responsible.

I'm sure it's just the guy with a gun who JUST HAPPENS to be standing next to the guy asking for $20, who also thinks that you should give that guy $20. Purely a coincidence, zero proof of any involvement.

 

[Lalalandia]

Is there proof that it's gators or are we saying since this group is riddled with anonymity and that because a gaming celebrity is harassed it's going to be the gators doing it?

I hope there's proof. All the harassment has to stop and I hope there is a way to find the people responsible.

Seriously when every GG op emphasises not using the hash tag while being a bell end are we really going to demand that a major target of their ire produce the hash tags? No other group has it in for Jim this bad right now and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the content of these messages probably includes ethics in some way, is it wrong to blame GG?

Put it this way why would you think it's not GG?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It may be something to hope for, but human behavior consistently shows us that's just not how many people operate.

To keep harping on the 9/11 truther comparison, do you think they're vile people who just refuse to listen to reality? Or do you think they really believe this stuff?

Again, from HULK:



In other words, because these are people who have inherently felt there was something "wrong", that this is an hobby that they may have personally taken a lot of shit for in their life, the "emotional truth" that something is wrong becomes all encompassing, to the point where any silver-tongued snake can co-opt these innocents into believing anything. What's worse, because it's an "emotional truth", these ideals become MORE hardened the more facts you show them: they become elements of the 'other' that has been offending them all their life, just more 'evidence' from a world that doesn't understand them or their ideals.

For these people, they got into the movement thinking from the start it really was about ethics in journalism (which they already typically have a profound misunderstanding of, making it even easier to manipulate), and any little shred that shows they might be right is highlight for their worldview (say, a tweet from someone jokingly saying bullying should return for GG), and the mountain of evidence showing how it's wrong just becomes more persecution from people who - in their estimation - were causing the problem in the first place.

It's a horrible cycle. But I do think that's what made this whole now crumbling movement so terrible. So many legitimately good people got broiled in it that it has made it very hard not to be suspect about a good many people who before we'd all be on the same page with.

An important difference from truthers is that, as far as I know, they're not actively trying to hurt people who disagree with them.

It's hard for me to sympathize with anyone associating with gamergate BECAUSE the whole thing is founded on misinformation and perceived insults. Coupled with the fact that most of the most visible and vicious proponents were already harassing these women much earlier, I'm not willing to give any benefit of the doubt to people still clinging.

Many people are ignorant and choose to remain so because it suits them or at the very least doesn't affect them adversely. That's not something to downplay, especially when there is a very real and visible human cost.

There's no need to accept these ways of thought and courses of action.

I've been playing video games for 25 years, but that's not who I am or how I define myself. And there is absolutely nothing about games that would take precedence over being a basically decent person.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

What would "proof" even look like?

 

[Amir0x]

An important difference from truthers is that, as far as I know, they're not actively trying to hurt people who disagree with them.

But the innocents aren't trying to hurt anyone either - they think they're part of something that makes sense to their worldview, and rationalize the harassers as a small minority giving the otherwise good movement a bad name.

And of course, 9/11 truthers do sometimes hurt people, because it's quite an offensive position that often causes people emotional turmoil. And trust me, back at its height, they harassed the fuck out of people, and rarely still do. Different types of hurt, of course.

Anyway, point is the movement is fucked, but there is a contingent of genuinely innocent people who are wrapped up in this as an emotional truth, and don't really understand why it's wrong and no matter how much evidence you show them, it won't change their view. That may in your estimation be a failure of a sinister kind, but I think it's more human. These people just believe it is about ethics in journalism.

It's hard for me to sympathize with anyone associating with gamergate BECAUSE the whole thing is founded on misinformation and perceived insults. Coupled with the fact that most of the most visible and vicious proponents were already harassing these women much earlier, I'm not willing to give any benefit of the doubt to people still clinging.

Many people are ignorant and choose to remain so because it suits them or at the very least doesn't affect them adversely. That's not something to downplay, especially when there is a very real and visible human cost.

There's no need to accept these ways of thought and courses of action.

I just think that while I get your frustration, the evidence we have from other similar movements and ideologies is that there is always a core of innocents who get wrapped up in the thing due to ignorance and then block out any evidence that shows them it's wrong. Emotional truths are a powerful thing. Gamergate is not going to be an exception, and my experience with many in the movement has borne this out. There are people who really are earnestly trying to tell me why there's this ethical problem and that ethical problem, and as I calmly illustrate how none of these are ethical issues, slowly their 'good faith' in me evaporates and they start getting hostile. Often they will never even bring up a single thing about females or SJWs or anything, they'll go right to GameJournoPros or Patricia Hernandez and list all the perceived slights, and no matter how I articulate it, the more evidence I show against it, the angrier they get that I'm not grasping the nuance of their argument.

And I do not come away with the idea that these are genuinely fucked up people who just should know better. I come away that they're often very young, very naive, and easily manipulated into a movement that includes them... in a world that so very often has not.