Support NeoGAF

[Xando]

Without unpaid people helping, the limit would have been reached a long time ago.
The refugees right now cost us 100 billion per year afaik.
A single lone minority refugee costs 5000€ a month.
At some point the people who earn money and pay taxes will flee the country.

Stop lying. It's 93 billion until 2020. Not every year

http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/P...milliarden-euro-fuer-fluechtlinge-bereit.html

 

[BreezyLimbo]

says the guy who isn't even actually in Germany

only germans can talk about germany

 

[Androidsleeps]

Am I wrong to think that a single casualty altercation is just a local squabble not worth of international attention?

Incidents with refugees are only gonna keep getting attention since problems involving the refugee crisis keep reoccurring in Germany and other EU countries. People who opposed accepting this much refugees into the EU cited security and safety as their reasoning, and they sure look like they're right when more of this stuff keeps happening, especially when it's individuals "known to the police".

I don't want to side with the far-right populists and xenophobes and their BS "brown ppl are coming to destroy Europe!!", but let's not pretend the migrant crisis isn't causing trouble in Europe, that will only help their narrative.

 

[entremet]

What's the gender/age breakdown on the refugee population?

I keep hearing mostly younger male. Having a majority of young men that cannot engage economically due to skill and language gaps is a recipe for trouble, no matter the permutations and independent of bigger issues like culture and religion.

If Germany didn't think about this, they totally messed up. Seems like other countries, like Canada are doing the opposite.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Well, I am not afraid of the refugees but she is from Asia and I feel the whole refugee and ISIS situation is shown differently there in the media as well as cultural differences being at play.

Tell me about it. My wife is Chinese and yeah. In her Weibo (chinese twitter) people are racist af and fearmongering is everywhere.
And even the state TV is showing these news...

And actually some refugees really are shit af. The bf of my sister is working for the Marine and he told me some pretty shitty stories when he had to be positioned at a refugee camp last year. I can totally see how that can change your views though and it certainly did mine.
But lets face it. Things like these are "normal" when it comes to Germans too. Germans killing their whole family, Germans stabbing eachother, Germans killing other Germans, Germans destroying property etc.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Reguees and IS are the hot topics right now.
We've seen a steep decline in interest in the munich story as soon at it was clear that this wasn't a refugee and also not IS or in any form religiously motivated.
If this had been ISIS you bet your ass CNN would still be talking about it all day.

The fearmongering is working.

Yes, and this one will die down also tomorrow since it doesn't seem to be a coordinated attack. You are now just arguing that terror attacks get more coverage. That seems to be a given and not very strange.

What's the gender/age breakdown on the refugee population?

I keep hearing mostly younger male. Having a majority of young men that cannot engage economically due to skill and language gaps is a recipe for trouble, no matter the permutations and independent of bigger issues like culture and religion.

If Germany didn't think about this, they totally messed up. Seems like other countries, like Canada are doing the opposite.

Canada is going through the UN and checking people first. That way they can also take in families, kids, women in the proportions they think is healthy. The US and UK are doing the same thing. It also means they are taking in smaller numbers - especially the US - of course, which is better possible due to their geographical position.

 

[MistakenMobius]

What's the gender/age breakdown on the refugee population?

I keep hearing mostly younger male. Having a majority of young men that cannot engage economically due to skill and language gaps is a recipe for trouble, no matter the permutation and independent of bigger issues like culture and religion.

If Germany didn't think about this, they totally messed up.

Sweden have now a worse gender ratio than one child China policy

 

[Übermatik]

It would be really appreciated if those posting infographics/stats in German could translate to English for greater understanding. Thanks!

 

[Ennosuke]

Links links links.

I live in Frankfurt. I walk past a refugee center each day. Dunno, those guys look friendly to me. Also haven't tried to grab my female friends between their legs so far.

There are definitely some cases where refugees done some bad shit. We need to show more strength and find a solution for such cases. This guy was already known as been aggressive.

But as you I live in Frankfurt and I live near a refugee camp. I have to say they look like friendly and peaceful folks, can't complain amd happy to give them a safe home in my country. But Stories such as Würzburg or Reutlingen still give you a bad feeling.

 

[Talents]

I agree with John tbh. If you're a leader of a country, your first priority should be the safety of your nations people. If you're Germany's leader, German people are your top priority. If you're the UK's leader, the British people are your top priority. If you're the French leader, the French people are your top priority. No exceptions.

 

[Kabouter]

Over 30 years ago many Vietnamese refugees came to Germany. Many of them were uneducated and underskilled.
When you look at those families now most of them are pretty well off. Their kids go to university most of the times and get medial or engineering degrees.

It is a matter of integration, where Germany is admittedly lacking for quite some time now. I also believe part of the blame lies with the immigrants itself who don't want to integrate well though.

I think there are legitimate fears over the integration of the majority of those in the current wave of refugees however, given the problems Germany and other European countries continue to face in the integration of Muslim migrants from West Asia, East Africa, and North Africa.

 

[nacimento]

Yes it actually is, it's called the Geneva convention and human right, the parts pertaining to refugees, you should check them up sometime

Well, since the whole rest of Europe cleans their ass with that...

 

[Hypnotoad]

I did a quick extrapolation of the data for 2015

-Murder, German nationality: 0,72 per 100.000
-Murder, Foreign nationality: 2,51 per 100.000

-Sexual abuse, German nationality: 1,55 per 10.000
-Sexual abuse, Foreign nationality: 3,04 per 10.000

-Sexual assault, German nationality: 0,36 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Foreign nationality: 1,42 per 10.000

Keep in mind that Western European and East Asian immigrants are usually underrepresented compared to Germans, but Middle Eastern and African immigrants are extremely overrepresented. For example, some more numbers I just calculated according to BKA data from 2015:

-Sexual assault, Afghan nationality: 5,2 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Iraqi nationality: 5,2 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Pakistani nationality: 5,1 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Tunesian nationality: 7,1 per 10.000

 

[BreezyLimbo]

What's the gender/age breakdown on the refugee population?

I keep hearing mostly younger male. Having a majority of young men that cannot engage economically due to skill and language gaps is a recipe for trouble, no matter the permutations and independent of bigger issues like culture and religion.

If Germany didn't think about this, they totally messed up. Seems like other countries, like Canada are doing the opposite.

Yeah, Canada iirc is prioritizing family units, women, and children. They set a minimum of women/children before they start accepting men.

 

[mario_O]

Most of them already were in refugee camps in Turkey or somewhere else.

If you're morally consistent you should take in refugees from all war zones or repressive states and that would amount to tens of millions if you include Africa.

So, no, that doesn't make sense to me. Build and support refugee camps outside of EU how Austria's minister Kurz proposed.

So that's your incredible solution? You want them to live in camps? I don't know why I even bother to discuss..

 

[His Majesty]

Sweden have now a worse gender ratio than one child China policy

Only for the younger generation but yes, it's a worrying development. BBC reports that the ratio for 16- and 17-year olds is 1.23. The migration factor is contributing significantly to those statistics.

 

[Jacobi]

Over 30 years ago many Vietnamese refugees came to Germany. Many of them were uneducated and underskilled.
When you look at those families now most of them are pretty well off. Their kids go to university most of the times and get medial or engineering degrees.

It is a matter of integration, where Germany is admittedly lacking for quite some time now. I also believe part of the blame lies with the immigrants itself who don't want to integrate well though.

Vietnamese integrate very well. There is a difference how well cultures integrate.

And Germany isn't lacking it. Immigrants have the same rights to social security, studying for free/low cost. I think policies are too soft and that hinders integration.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

True, but letting people just pass unhindered and undocumented is something no sane country should have done also. It's a lot of problems stacked upon each other and nobody wanted to deal with the mess.

Agreed but if the EU members are more interested in protecting their countries than the border countries, who got a shitty deal, and the refugees seeking help Germany could go along with them or decide to act upon the moral obligations we preach.

Most of them already were in refugee camps in Turkey or somewhere else.

If you're morally consistent you should take in refugees from all war zones or repressive states and that would amount to tens of millions if you include Africa.

So, no, that doesn't make sense to me. Build and support refugee camps outside of EU how Austria's minister Kurz proposed.

Anyone in danger of death by war or religious or political prosecution is allowed to seek asylum.
What Sebastian Kurz said requires cooperation between EU members and the supposed host countries. Until that can happen there's little else to do.

Not to mention that some countries that would have been in the vicinity have long reached their maximum capacity of refugees. Lebanon has like a million refugees to 4.5 million inhabitants. Slight tangent, speaking about reaching a capacity having been reached in European wealthy countries is laughable compared.

I agree with John tbh. If you're a leader of a country, your first priority should be the safety of your nations people. If you're Germany's leader, German people are your top priority. If you're the UK's leader, the British people are your top priority. If you're the French leader, the French people are your top priority. No exceptions.

No, if at all people living in your country should be your priority.

 

[Sch1sm]

And the only way they could've avoided death was obviously to travel all the way from the Middle East to the heart of Europe, bypassing countless safe countries.

Countless safe countries in Europe that aren't taking in any or a significant amount of refugees, you mean? Syria is bordered by Turkey in the north, they really don't pass that many safe countries that'll allow them asylum before finding mainland Europe.

They've got Lebanon on the west, and Lebanon has taken in a lot of them. Israel is problematic considering the Palestinian conflict. Should they go east to Iraq, then, and continue risking their livelihood considering suicide bombings and the sort there? Or to tiny, tiny, Jordan.

I'm sure they're also trying to secure some sort of future, for themselves or their children, and countries in the Middle East probably aren't offering them that.

Either way, you're assuming they aren't going to nearby countries. Nearly half of all non-Jordanians living in Jordan are Syrian, Lebanon is essentially going through a crisis over the amount they've taken in. We all know Turkey has a good number of them, as well. Come on, John.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Without unpaid people helping, the limit would have been reached a long time ago.
The refugees right now cost us 100 billion per year afaik.
A single lone minority refugee costs 5000€ a month.

The government invests 93billion a year (or this particular year, but thats also for integration and education of these people. Thats an investment like the investment we make by making college education free. This will eventually pay back.

But its not like 93billion will bring Germany to its knees. Germanys economy is doing great.
We#ve payed much more for banks, much more for Greece, and if it hadn't made headlines most people would've noticed these investments either.

At some point the people who earn money and pay taxes will flee the country.

This is just ridiculous.

 

[ElTorro]

Yes, and this one will die down also tomorrow since it doesn't seem to be a coordinated attack. You are now just arguing that terror attacks get more coverage. That seems to be a given and not very strange.

Especially since the current wave of terrorist attacks is driven by an ideology that wants to repeat and expand those attacks, as well as recruit more people to its cause. That makes it a more pressing issue than events that are either rare (like rampage shooters in Germany) or statistically predictable background noise (like statistically predictable common violence). Especially when you look at the global issue, not just at events in the Western world.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Only for the younger generation but yes, it's a worrying development. BBC reports that the ratio for 16- and 17-year olds is 1.23. The migration factor is contributing significantly to those statistics.

What could be the reason?massive recent migration by population that see women as disposable or property?

 

[Sunster]

And the only way they could've avoided death was obviously to travel all the way from the Middle East to the heart of Europe, bypassing countless safe countries.

Many refugees and migrants wanted to go to Germany in particular. I don't see an issue with that. They don't want to simply exist and be safe. They want opportunity and to make a living, the kind they couldn't make back home. Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, so it's a very reasonable choice. I just don't understand all the negative rhetoric regarding many of them going straight to Germany. That's what I would do.

 

[Kabouter]

Countless safe countries in Europe that aren't taking in any or a significant amount of refugees, you mean? Syria is bordered by Turkey in the north, they really don't pass that many safe countries that'll allow them asylum before finding mainland Europe.

They've got Lebanon on the west, and Lebanon has taken in a lot of them. Israel is problematic considering the Palestinian conflict. Should they go east to Iraq, then, and continue risking their livelihood considering suicide bombings and the sort there? Or to tiny, tiny, Jordan.

I'm sure they're also trying to secure some sort of future, for themselves or their children, and countries in the Middle East probably aren't offering them that.

Either way, you're assuming they aren't going to nearby countries. Nearly half of all non-Jordanians living in Jordan are Syrian, Lebanon is essentially going through a crisis over the amount they've taken in. We all know Turkey has a good number of them, as well. Come on, John.

He's talking about European countries that aren't Germany. Not stopping in the many safe countries in South Eastern Europe, but continuing on to Germany, Sweden etc.

 

[Markoman]

What's the gender/age breakdown on the refugee population?

I keep hearing mostly younger male. Having a majority of young men that cannot engage economically due to skill and language gaps is a recipe for trouble, no matter the permutations and independent of bigger issues like culture and religion.

If Germany didn't think about this, they totally messed up. Seems like other countries, like Canada are doing the opposite.

That's exactly it. There isn't even an official number yet. And I've seen many politicians go into defense mode when this question was brought up. Seing endless corsos with mainly males aged 16-40 for months on TV is where I draw my estimations from, right now.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What could be the reason?massive recent migration by population that see women as disposable or property?

The article states that for refugees, a lot of 16-year olds are being sent there by their family probably. That is because they can get their family over later. Seems to me like the system is clearly being abused that way. This is not a normal occurrence:

 

[Frankfurter]

I did a quick extrapolation of the data for 2015

-Murder, German nationality: 0,72 per 100.000
-Murder, Foreign nationality: 2,51 per 100.000

-Sexual abuse, German nationality: 1,55 per 10.000
-Sexual abuse, Foreign nationality: 3,04 per 10.000

-Sexual assault, German nationality: 0,36 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Foreign nationality: 1,42 per 10.000

Keep in mind that Western European and East Asian immigrants are usually underrepresented compared to Germans, but Middle Eastern and African immigrants are extremely overrepresented. For example, some more numbers I just calculated according to BKA data from 2015:

-Sexual assault, Afghan nationality: 5,2 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Iraqi nationality: 5,2 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Pakistani nationality: 5,1 per 10.000
-Sexual assault, Tunesian nationality: 7,1 per 10.000

This is like saying blacks commit more crimes than whites. It's true, but the main reason isn't race or nationality. Compare say, income groups and you'll see that poorer peole commit more crimes.

 

[Guevara]

Sweden have now a worse gender ratio than one child China policy

Wow that's crazy. Sounds like a recipe for future disaster.

 

[Zukuu]

First an axe rampage, then a shooting now a machete attack and all that within a week? Wtf is happening.

 

[His Majesty]

What could be the reason?massive recent migration by population that see women as disposable or property?

it's stated in the article

And 92% of unaccompanied minors aged 16 and 17 years old are male. So why is this?

"If you're underage, first of all, you get housing, you get more financial resources. You also have a lot of staff around you helping you with different issues," says Hanif Bali, a member of the opposition Moderate Party in the Swedish parliament - which is on the centre right of the political spectrum. "If you need food, clothing, everything, you can go to the municipality and demand this money."

But there is another even bigger benefit, which Bali believes is significant. "You have the right to family reunification. So you can bring all of your family to Sweden, if you are underage."

So 16-year old male makes trek to Sweden, gets financial resources and can later call over their family through family unification laws.

 

[Kabouter]

The article states that for refugees, a lot of 16-year olds are being sent there by their family probably. That is because they can get their family over later. Seems to me like the system is clearly being abused that way. This is not a normal occurrence:

I'd also say it's possible that those 16-21 year olds are most urgent to get out for many families because they're the ones most likely to be drafted.

 

[justjohn]

Many refugees and migrants wanted to go to Germany in particular. I don't see an issue with that. They don't want to simply exist and be safe. They want opportunity and to make a living, the kind they couldn't make back home. Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, so it's a very reasonable choice. I just don't understand all the negative rhetoric regarding many of them going straight to Germany. That's what I would do.

90% of the worlds population would love to live in Germany. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there but it doesn't mean it should be allowed. There a reason why we national borders, visas, quotas etc. simply letting everyone in because they prefer your country is just madness.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

There are definitely some cases where refugees done some bad shit. We need to show more strength and find a solution for such cases. This guy was already known as been aggressive.

But as you I live in Frankfurt and I live near a refugee camp. I have to say they look like friendly and peaceful folks, can't complain amd happy to give them a safe home in my country. But Stories such as Würzburg or Reutlingen still give you a bad feeling.

Definitely. Either deport or process them. More control is necessary. It's just that these broad accusations aren't helping anyone.

Spoiler

Also, Gude lol.

 

[Kabouter]

90% of the worlds population would love to live in Germany. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there but it doesn't mean it should be allowed. There a reason why we national borders, visas, quotas etc. simply letting everyone in because they prefer your country is just madness.

Well, until Britain leaves the EU it is allowed

 

[Chairmanchuck]

The article states that for refugees, a lot of 16-year olds are being sent there by their family probably. That is because they can get their family over later. Seems to me like the system is clearly being abused that way. This is not a normal occurrence:

The refugee system was abused in forever. Even the immigration system was absused like that since the 70s when the turkish came and slowly "took" their family with them. It isnt something new. Even before the whole refugee wave, families sent their sons/daughters from Morrocco, Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia etc. to Germany in the hopes of them becoming a German citizen and getting them "over here".

Its just now that its A LOT of people doing that.

 

[Salty Rice]

If you don't have any stop spreading your racist bullshit here.

I think you dont know what racism is.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'd also say it's possible that those 16-21 year olds are most urgent to get out for many families because they're the ones most likely to be drafted.

Does Afghanistan have a military draft? Or do you mean being drafted in other organisations like the Taliban and forced to fight?

The refugee system was abused in forever. Even the immigration system was absused like that since the 70s when the turkish came and slowly "took" their family with them. It isnt something new. Even before the whole refugee wave, families sent their sons/daughters from Morrocco, Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia etc. to Germany in the hopes of them becoming a German citizen and getting them "over here".

Its just now that its A LOT of people doing that.

True. And because of that I think the rules should change. But that is a difficult thing to do of course without having innocents suffer also.

 

[His Majesty]

Many refugees and migrants wanted to go to Germany in particular. I don't see an issue with that. They don't want to simply exist and be safe. They want opportunity and to make a living, the kind they couldn't make back home. Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, so it's a very reasonable choice. I just don't understand all the negative rhetoric regarding many of them going straight to Germany. That's what I would do.

If you don't want to go to Denmark, Belgium, Austria because you prefer Sweden or Germany then you are not a war refugee anymore but an economical one. If you refuse those countries, fair play, but then Germany can also deny your application.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So, you're from Austria, I guess.
Please mate, show me the exact paragraph in the European constitution that says that every international law may be circumvented by moral obligations.

Spoiler

Oopsy, it doesn't exist

I don't know about the Austrian constitution, but the German constitution says that one of the top commissions for all administrations is to protect the citizens. Seehofer brought that up after the situation was getting out of hand: Germany at one point was not able to protect, secure and controll it's own borders against non-justified immigration. Period. This is not a dicussion about whether or not we should help those who are in need!

what international law was broken? She said they'd accept refugees that get there, that conforms to all agreements. Whether immigration is justified or not is determined by seeking asylum and it being granted or rejected.
An AfD politician also said they should shoot women and kids to protect their borders.

 

[metareferential]

This is like saying blacks commit more crimes than whites. It's true, but the main reason isn't race or nationality. Compare say, income groups and you'll see that poorer peole commit more crimes.

We're talking specifically about murder and sexual assault.

Those too are less connected to income and education.

Of course comparing other crimes we would see the opposite: germans overrepresented.

But the sexual assault rate is a problem. And it has nothing to do with poverty I'm afraid. We need more detailed data anyway.

 

[maniac-kun]

Well thats what I feared what will happen when Merkel "invited" those people and no one knew who came into this country. There where times when people got in completly unchecked. And even after registering at city x a HUGE percentage just disappeared to who knows where.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I think you dont know what racism is.

You linked a cleary right-wing websites which, from what I can see, all articles are about shit that foreigners/refugees do.
And there is a fucking article about Orban, how he is portrayed as someone "protecting his country"...

 

[soulluos]

The bomb has been planted.

 

[Salty Rice]

You linked a cleary right-wing websites which, from what I can see, all articles are about shit that foreigners/refugees do.
And there is a fucking article about Orban, how he is portrayed as someone "protecting his country"...

I didnt link to that site and also these cases happened and people wanted examples how is this racist?

Saying or showing anything that could look refugees in a bad light makes you a racist. Good to know.

 

[Sunster]

90% of the worlds population would love to live in Germany. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there but it doesn't mean it should be allowed. There a reason why we national borders, visas, quotas etc. simply letting everyone in because they prefer your country is just madness.

Yea there are laws and rules and borders. That's why 90% of the world isn't moving to Germany. They have accepted 800,000 Syrians and currently have 360,000. They aren't taking in the entire world. So where is the madness?

 

[nampad]

I think there are legitimate fears over the integration of the majority of those in the current wave of refugees however, given the problems Germany and other European countries continue to face in the integration of Muslim migrants from West Asia, East Africa, and North Africa.

Vietnamese integrate very well. There is a difference how well cultures integrate.

And Germany isn't lacking it. Immigrants have the same rights to social security, studying for free/low cost. I think policies are too soft and that hinders integration.

My family immigrated from Vietnam to Germany. While I think it is true that the cultural aspect is important, I also think that the way the integration was handled back then was maybe better. To be fair, the crisis now is multiple times bigger and times have changed.

Anyway, I think working on the integration should be the main focus instead of outright saying it is not possible.

 

[Hypnotoad]

This is like saying blacks commit more crimes than whites. It's true, but the main reason isn't race or nationality. Compare say, income groups and you'll see that poorer peole commit more crimes.

Immigrants from Vietnam are a rather large group, as are those from the former Soviet Union and poor Eastern European countries, yet crime numbers are much lower for those groups. Especially in the second generation, they integrated well, and that is without any economic headstart compared to Muslim immigrants. This is reflected in a plethora of social indexes, and the same pattern is reflected all over Western Europe.

 

[Sesuadra]

Really? That's just from one day:
http://www.freiezeiten.net/19-juli-asylsommer-2016-dutzende-angriffe-auf-frauen

Nice right wing newspaper you got there "unabhängige medien" is always great.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Saying or showing anything that could look refugees in a bad light makes you a racist. Good to know.

Sorry for the confusion. You didnt post the website.
But your posts are making you look like racist imo:

Oh believe me the crime rate of refugees are much higher.
Sexual harassment alone from refugees is a daily basis now.
So many cases where refugees just grab women between the legs in bathhouses...

Not in that amount. Stop being so ignorant if you think its not much higher with refugees.
Its just facts.

From facts to my experience:

Well maybe i overreacted but i just speak from my own experiences and having multiple cases where refugees grab women between the legs in bathhouses, violence and guy running around with a axe...

You are using these cases to support your argument that (some) refugees are criminals. Wow. I can also show you enough cases that (some) German are criminals.

 

[Sunster]

Yea there are laws and rules and borders. That's why 90% of the world isn't moving to Germany. They have accepted 800,000 Syrians and currently have 360,000. They aren't taking in the entire world. So where is the madness?

If you don't want to go to Denmark, Belgium, Austria because you prefer Sweden or Germany then you are not a war refugee anymore but an economical one. If you refuse those countries, fair play, but then Germany can also deny your application.

Denmark is further away, and they have flooded to Austria. It's been much more affected than Germany.