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[Nepenthe]

No, direction =/= good animation. Your examples have very little animation at all. Camera pans and zooms to show motion, speed lines instead of actually animating, static faces. That is NOT good animation

DBZ rarely had good animation. But it did often have good direction to hide it

This rebuttal with that gif doesn't make sense.

DB/Z had genuinely great animation during its best fight scenes, because the posing and timing to show speed and impacts were all solidly constructed. Blows look like they connected hard and hurt like shit, and some of the choreography- such as Goku windmilling onto his feet before blowing the Ginyu Force away- is iconic as hell. Camera work is also fair game for animation to use, so I'm not sure why you called that out, really. You don't need a new drawing every two frames to qualify a work as good animation.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Uh but they are? I mean they are dependent on singular frames repeated which was a common action shortcut, but the type of dynamism and camera movement in these few shots alone show a type of effort put into the animations themselves that something like DBZ super doesn't ever match generally speaking.

And even in the later episodes the detail continues to show

Um, is this really going to be the argument against cel animation being good. "Durr hurr blinky lights and dbz gifs"?

I wouldn't use those DBZ gifs of examples of good animation. It's an example of good storyboarding and using good direction to maximize the impact of the frames but the quality of the actual animation is nothing to write home about.

 

[XAL]

 

[Inuhanyou]

No, direction =/= good animation. Your examples have very little animation at all. Camera pans and zooms to show motion, speed lines instead of actually animating, static faces. That is NOT good animation

DBZ rarely had good animation. But it did often have good direction to hide it

I'm sorry, i don't know the difference between "direction" and "animation". Most action anime(and anime in general) use these sorts of tricks to convey different things.

Yes DBZ commonly used tricks, but my whole argument has never been that DBZ has not had speed lines, camera zooms or used tricks. Its been that the animation used in DBZ(and sailor moon) is far superior to what toei animation uses for their current series today using computers and generally speaking was far more consistent about it.

 

[Uno Venova]

No, direction =/= good animation. Your examples have very little animation at all. Camera pans and zooms to show motion, speed lines instead of actually animating, static faces. That is NOT good animation

DBZ rarely had good animation. But it did often have good direction to hide it

Why aren't those techniques included in the "animation" qualifier?

 

[Xe4]

On top of that audiences also showed that they're really not interested in 2D animated feature films in this day and age. I can't imagine a scenario currently where one would be financially successful if advertised in the same vein as CGI films.

I think it's mostly kids grew up with Pixar/Dreamworks films who aren't as interested in 2D stuff. I do think a well marketed 2D film could sell well, but we'll never know because the major studios refuse to try. After The Princess and the Frog, they just kind of gave up.

I mean speaking of Naruto, there was a time when pierrot was just creatively bankrupt as all hell and took from Cowboy bebop, one of the best examples of traditional cel animation in a non movie

They were both referencing a Bruce Lee fight.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

 

[Inuhanyou]

They were both referencing a Bruce Lee fight.

Shot for shot, camera transition per camera transition, right.

im not sure what is "durr hurr" about questioning those examples? I can grab a beautiful piece of artwork from pixiv and add the exact same blinking light in AE

you just posted something that looks like it was shot on the fives with mostly static backgrounds. I dont remember dbz ever looking that stuttery so it might just be a bad gif.

I don't know what you were responding to me about though because i have not been arguing for DB having the best animation of all time in anime or otherwise, but compared to the studio who made its current efforts using computers.

I responded to you because i assumed you were saying traditional cel animation in general was bad because "good animation is blinky lights and dbz gifs" which doesnt make any sense

 

[SaviourMK2]

For me I personally love and prefer hand drawn animation. It stems to my love of "Fantasia" (1940), in particular, Night on Bald Mountain.

I don't necessarily hate CGI films, but I loathe the trend and how hand drawn/2D material is being phased out for CGI crap.

 

[Imperfected]

The goat.

... by which I mean that a goat wandered into someone's office and made this while trying to eat the mouse at their workstation.

 

[Haly]

Why aren't those techniques included in the "animation" qualifier?

Probably because animation director, art director, and director are different specializations.

It's like asking why isn't a cinematographer a choreographer, or why isn't an editor a director.

 

[hogendaz85]

It's funny how some are saying 'tricks' to convey motion in an anime such as DBZ sure there were compromises like with any animation but the placement of the 'camera' or story bording to me, along with the very detailed drawings(not always) is more eye candy to me than something from Disney where the characters movement is composed of a lot of frames but the characters themselves lack much finer details and the camera is mostly static.

It's hard to convey what I mean here lol

 

[RalchAC]

I'm sorry, i don't know the difference between "direction" and "animation". Most action anime(and anime in general) use these sorts of tricks to convey different things.

Yes DBZ commonly used tricks, but my whole argument has never been that DBZ has not had speed lines, camera zooms or used tricks. Its been that the animation used in DBZ(and sailor moon) is far superior to what toei animation uses for their current series today using computers and generally speaking was far more consistent about it.

Seems like for some people good animation = most frames!

Which I'm not sure it's the right way to use it. I mean, it feels extremely reductive.

I find it quite incredible how anime directors and animators have developed lots and lots of tricks to make their series look better despite having tight budgets. Talent and thinking outside of the box goes a long way I'd say.

 

[Wild Card]

I mean speaking of Naruto, there was a time when pierrot was just creatively bankrupt as all hell and took from Cowboy bebop, one of the best examples of traditional cel animation in a non movie

Both the Cowboy Bebop and Naruto fights are actually by the same key animator, I do believe.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Both the Cowboy Bebop and Naruto fights are actually by the same key animator, I do believe.

i wonder if that fight specifically was done by the cowboy bebop animator in charge of those scenes, and what he was thinking blatantly lifting skeleton frames from a previous project

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I don't know what you were responding to me about though because i have not been arguing for DB having the best animation of all time in anime or otherwise, but compared to the studio who made its current efforts using computers.

I responded to you because i assumed you were saying traditional cel animation in general was bad because "good animation is blinky lights and dbz gifs" which doesnt make any sense

The garden of words example was just weird because its not really demonstrating the benefits of hand drawn animation.

The Dragonball Z gifs look better than some of the cheaper animation in super but thats also dependent on who they bring in to animate scenes more than the animating medium itself.

The Naruto thing is just amusing because of how frequently its brought up as an example of supposedly terrible animation.

 

[Wild Card]

i wonder if that fight specifically was done by the cowboy bebop animator in charge of those scenes, and what he was thinking blatantly lifting skeleton frames from a previous project

Sometimes it homage, or maybe you might consider this theft, like what Boondocks did with Naruto.

Though I do want to know what people consider good animation, more frames? more unique frames?

I wonder if anyone here has seen the new Fate Apocrypha, because I think that series has budget and talent, but I feel unimpressed a lot because of the choreography.

 

[Boss Doggie]

There we go, Thunderbolt Fantasy! That's the over the top stop motion I was thinking about!

You're arguing against a strawman in the first place. Who says "Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" and why would you take anyone who says this seriously, or treat it as a real platform? There's plenty of interesting, enlightening discussion to be had around 2D vs 3D, as the last few pages have shown, none of it involves disingenuous absolutes like "TWO-DEE ANIMATION SPERIOR".

Because those people to this day still exist, and whenever they have issues with a show, they blanketly attribute it to "well it's not hand-drawn" or similar, rather than because the animation is shit. Yeah I shouldn't give them attention, but it is bothersome that that mindset still encroaches the average person. Hell you still see it in the thread anyway.

And I'd argue those discussions were made because of this thread

OP, you make a horrible argument.

Why not post some horrible CGI animation for comparison?

Disagree strongly. It's BS when it's done with serious budget constraints and outsourcing. All your examples in OP are such.

Way to miss the point. Again.

It is not about comparison. The motive is not 2D vs 3D. The motive is the idea that 2D is untouchable is a terrible position generally backed by flawed ideas (like how "something is drawn ergo it takes effort ergo better" hence why I posted those examples).

OP, wtf.

60s Hanna Barbera was budget animation for TV, they pioneered the systems to make it affordable and the original art and designs are stellar, it's just been watered-down and shittified over the years.

And if you notice, I never stated HB's method was terrible. I mentioned it was cheating. You pretty much stated my point. It was meant to showcase that hand-drawing isn't automatically something so super hard to do.

 

[Gr1mLock]

I'll have whatever the fuck you are smoking.

 

[Xe4]

Shot for shot, camera transition per camera transition, right.

You're right, upon looking it up. I was mixing it up with them also referencing Conan Lee in a different episode.

 

[3dmodeler]

i wonder if that fight specifically was done by the cowboy bebop animator in charge of those scenes, and what he was thinking blatantly lifting skeleton frames from a previous project

It's not really a unique thing in animation, TV animation are on such a tight budget and deadline that sometimes to save time animators might just re-use the timing and poses of some of their previous works. I mean why not? If you already mapped out the timing and poses why waste time creating new ones when you get paid so little anyways? Even Disney animators were guilty of this. Take a look at this:

https://vid.me/RSLq

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Though I do want to know what people consider good animation, more frames? more unique frames?

its not that simple since animation can be so nuanced
using more still frames will be impressive in a different way when its used for mechanical and anatomical animation as opposed to the fluid and simplified shapes you see in a lot of Disney

 

[Artanisix]

ANIME OWNS

 

[Jezan]

someone posted this on gaf a while ago and its stuck with me. Makes total sense too.

***Obviously talent helps too

That diagram is misleading, in that if I choose quality and cost, what about cost? will it be high or low?Time, is it a lot or just a little time needed?

Talent is an auto-lock into the expensive-high quality side. But by your diagram talent requires the 3, you will get a cost, a lot of time and quality.

 

[SixMachine]

Sometimes it homage, or maybe you might consider this theft, like what Boondocks did with Naruto.

Though I do want to know what people consider good animation, more frames? more unique frames?

I wonder if anyone here has seen the new Fate Apocrypha, because I think that series has budget and talent, but I feel unimpressed a lot because of the choreography.

This reminds me since the RWBY marathon was going on the whole week but Monty Oum was a huge movie and anime fan, you can see a lot of the same moves in the fights of RWBY and anime/movies/games (Should be no surprise, the guy basically got his start making fan videos of stuff like Haloid and Dead Fantasy). I wish I could find the comparison but there is even a Hunter X Hunter scene that RWBY basically copied in Volume 3, which is the last volume he worked on before passing away. The choreography was much better in the earlier volumes, even though it looked like the budget and technical skills weren't.

 

[Dice//]

I'ma just post s'more highlights since we're having lots of fun in this topic

Let's not forget The Vision of Escalfowne which did some...pretty great work for TV

 

[Crossing Eden]

Uh but they are? I mean they are dependent on singular frames repeated which was a common action shortcut, but the type of dynamism and camera movement in these few shots alone show a type of effort put into the animations themselves that something like DBZ super doesn't ever match generally speaking.

And even in the later episodes the detail continues to show

I mean they're really not. They're basically examples of how animators in Japan take a ton of shortcuts to hide the fact that the animation isn't very good.

I think it's mostly kids grew up with Pixar/Dreamworks films who aren't as interested in 2D stuff. I do think a well marketed 2D film could sell well, but we'll never know because the major studios refuse to try. After The Princess and the Frog, they just kind of gave up.

I doubt the adult audience is large enough to justify it either.

 

[psyfi]

hand drawn is better

 

[RedSwirl]

A lot of the hate for 3D seems to be because in Japan it's being used to replace 2D, with results that are often worse or just different.

In the end I don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison. 3D at its best, when taking full advantage of 3D, isn't going to look the same as 2D at its best. It's not impossible for 3D to replicate the style of 2D, but most of the time that's not the objective of 3D. Anime fans don't like 3D because it simply doesn't look like the anime they're used to.

The problem is that you aren't gonna find a lot of anime fights in 3D films, so you're not gonna get anime camera work... Video games are more along that nature, like the storm games:

A big thing at Disney is having feasible camera work

Read above.

This is a great example of why. Almost no one has tried to reproduce the camera styles of 2D anime in 3D. 3D Japanese movies with decent budgets like Advent Children, the Resident Evil CG movies, or Harlock, take one a style that's quite different. CyberConnect2 and Arc System Works are pretty much the only people trying to reproduce traditional anime fully in 3D. The Berserk anime was an attempt but apparently ran into budget and production difficulties that kneecapped it.

You also gotta control for budget and the nature of a production. A weekly TV show just ain't gonna look like a feature film. You have to ask: what are the best-looking weekly TV shows in terms of animation? Another question that needs to be asked: Does low-budget 3D look worse than low-budget 2D? Maybe low-budget anime just looks better because anime studios have had decades to figure out shortcuts with 2D animation.

I think you can definitely argue that most 3D from 20 years ago doesn't look as good as 2D animation from the same time period, or at least doesn't hold up as well, but even there you have to take into account stylistic differences. Toy Story holds up because that movie plays to the strengths and weaknesses of mid-90's 3D. The main characters are plastic toys who are supposed to look fake, the humans are rarely shown (arguably except Sid).

 

[pixelation]

Hand drawn animation is so much more diverse, i find that CGI art styles are too samey (much more so in kiddie flicks). Hand drawn animation has "soul" whereas CGI animation looks too clean, an almost clinical look.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Hand drawn animation is so much more diverse, i find that CGI art styles are too samey (much more so in kiddie flicks). Hand drawn animation has "soul" whereas CGI animation looks too clean, an almost clinical look.

you can find a lot of inbred 2d animation styles as well
3d animation is just a lot more recent and clearly still improving, but still matching 2d for how expressive it is, unless you think Disneys more recent films like Moana and Zootopia are somehow not a good demonstration of that progress.

its at the point where there is no reason why it has to look a certain way outside of budget and direction

 

[HMD]

I just wanna say this is a quality thread and I loved reading it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Hand drawn animation is so much more diverse, i find that CGI art styles are too samey (much more so in kiddie flicks). Hand drawn animation has "soul" whereas CGI animation looks too clean, an almost clinical look.

This depends entirely on the film, broaden your viewership instead of making such a generalization:

 

[HeatBoost]

People are defensive of hand drawn animation because it's becoming increasingly niche

Look at the number of hand drawn movies being produced in Hollywood
Look at the number of anime that has an increasing number of dubiously implemented CG elements

CG is all well and good when used with TLC, but even when it looks GREAT, it's a completely different aesthetic. And when it tries to mimic hand drawn animation, even if it does a good job, it leaves me kind of baffled as to what the point is. It's like applying a filter to a photograph to give it the aesthetic of an impressionistic painting

That last bit only applies to movies and TV, though. 3D video games that imitate a 2D animation aesthetic are fucking dope as hellllll. I'm willing to sacrifice presentational purity in exchange for interactivity.

 

[Mr. Smiley]

Hand drawn animation is so much more diverse, i find that CGI art styles are too samey (much more so in kiddie flicks). Hand drawn animation has "soul" whereas CGI animation looks too clean, an almost clinical look.

Step outside of Hollywood and you'll find greater variety in in cg animation in smaller studio works and overseas.

I mean shit, video games offer a variety of 3D artstyles when they're not chasing photo realism. Why would prerendered CG be any different?

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

CG is all well and good when used with TLC, but even when it looks GREAT, it's a completely different aesthetic. And when it tries to mimic hand drawn animation, even if it does a good job, it leaves me kind of baffled as to what the point is. It's like applying a filter to a photograph to give it the aesthetic of an impressionistic painting

any examples of this?

 

[Crossing Eden]

CG is all well and good when used with TLC, but even when it looks GREAT, it's a completely different aesthetic. And when it tries to mimic hand drawn animation, even if it does a good job, it leaves me kind of baffled as to what the point is. It's like applying a filter to a photograph to give it the aesthetic of an impressionistic painting

That last bit only applies to movies and TV, though. 3D video games that imitate a 2D animation aesthetic are fucking dope as hellllll. I'm willing to sacrifice presentational purity in exchange for interactivity.

2D animation principles apply fantastically to 3D, to bring back my examples from earlier, look at just how strong these poses are, the animation tells you everything you need to know about the character in the shot:

 

[Generate]

Definitely superior at its most elaborate but often simply serviceable. This all comes down to the studio or director doing the animation, because it has reached heights before that even cgi just looks cheap attempting.

 

[pantsattack]

I'ma just post s'more highlights since we're having lots of fun in this topic

Let's not forget The Vision of Escalfowne which did some...pretty great work for TV

Names if you would, please?

 

[Japanmanx3]

Reads OP...

This is one of the greatest animations of all time... Ain't nothing else competing with it.

...

Except maybe this one

 

[Chuck Norris]

This rebuttal with that gif doesn't make sense.

DB/Z had genuinely great animation during its best fight scenes, because the posing and timing to show speed and impacts were all solidly constructed. Blows look like they connected hard and hurt like shit, and some of the choreography- such as Goku windmilling onto his feet before blowing the Ginyu Force away- is iconic as hell. Camera work is also fair game for animation to use, so I'm not sure why you called that out, really. You don't need a new drawing every two frames to qualify a work as good animation.

Yes you do.

Animation by its very definition is the act of sequencing images to create motion. Good animation does this in a very detailed way, they capture the kinetics of human and environmental movement to create animation.

Good animation has little to do with how detailed the illustrating it is or how well paced and cut together a scene is. It is simply about how well things move in a convincing way.

It is why a show like Mob Psycho 100 can have pretty poor looking illustration but fantastic animation. And why DBZ can have some great looking illustration at times, but it sacrifices eccentric movements in the animation, it will use speed lines to create shortcuts, it will have camera pans and zooms into a fist instead of animating it.

DBZ did have the occasional episode or scene that were well animated but most were not, and the examples posted weren't.

Think about it, the license of DBZ could allow animators to do some crazy things with character movement but how often are they just close shots or floating in mid air throwing two punches then flashing to another spot on the screen?

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Not gonna lie, there probably isn't anything in the world that I love more than traditional, 2D, hand drawn animation.

 

[Dice//]

Names if you would, please?

Certainly (I'll just throw them into the quoted post)

I'ma just post s'more highlights since we're having lots of fun in this topic

Macross Plus

Amazing World of Gumball

Kanye West - Heartless

Atelier Shallie OP (amazing-ish, what it lacks in content it makes up in a crazy amount of frames)

Blade Runner 2049 - Blackout

Who Frames Roger Rabbit

Let's not forget The Vision of Escalfowne which did some...pretty great work for TV

 

[StanleyPalmtree]

so there a thing to keep in mind when trying to pass some kind of final judgement on an entire artistic medium (though why the hell anyone would think thats a good idea is beyond me).

traditional animation has been around like 80 years now? look at how much its improved
3d has only been around for only a bit over 20 years, with significant technical improvement apparent pretty much year by year.

even if you for some reason think there could ever be an answer to which medium is superior, i think its much to early to be calling the game right now.

 

[m0therzer0]

I don't understand trying to say that one method of animation is superior to another, but I'm just here for the gifs anyway. I haven't seen anyone mention Richard William's masterpiece "The Thief and the Cobbler" yet (the "Recobbled" cut, not the theatrical release).

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJry5ReXZVM

 

[Haly]

And when it tries to mimic hand drawn animation, even if it does a good job, it leaves me kind of baffled as to what the point is. It's like applying a filter to a photograph to give it the aesthetic of an impressionistic painting

Film grain is still in use today despite the quality of our film making natural grain a nonissue. Lens flare is another remnant of old technology that's entered the lexicon of visual language. Bokeh, squash and stretch, pixels, chromatic aberration, etc, all these visual artifacts have transcended their origins to become style.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

And when it tries to mimic hand drawn animation, even if it does a good job, it leaves me kind of baffled as to what the point is. It's like applying a filter to a photograph to give it the aesthetic of an impressionistic painting

Time? Money? Competences/systems already being in place and available?

Why isnt Stranger Things shot on film If theyre still gonna apply film grain and try to make it look 80s?

 

[Bishop89]

That diagram is misleading, in that if I choose quality and cost, what about cost? will it be high or low?Time, is it a lot or just a little time needed?

Talent is an auto-lock into the expensive-high quality side. But by your diagram talent requires the 3, you will get a cost, a lot of time and quality.

The way I see it is like this.

A lot of time invested + good quality = expensive

Something done quickly + low cost = poor quality

Quality + low cost = a lot of time to invest

 

[bennywhatever]

Yall should keep arguing about DBZ/Super because I love seeing the gifs.

 

[Joelstinton14]

I don't know why there has to be an arguement about it, we're really in a purple patch with regard to animation, be in handrawn, digital, stop motion.

I would say though some films have made great use of texture recent;y, especially handrawn animation - Princess of Kuguya and The Red Turtle have made great use of it , especially the former.

The pastel drawing in Princess really allows for a sense of movement and quick expressive features, be in facial or body, or in the landscape. Really beautiful to watch.

The red turtle, goes in the opposite direction, it is more used in single/static shots, and roots each scene with a sense of heft and place. Some scenes feel like seeing real life art works in life.

But its not just hand drawn animation, kubo and the two strings has a very granular feel to it.

It is probably nothing new '(i can think of the snowman straight away) but it something i have noticed quite a lot recently in animation.