Aztechnology
Member
I legitimately cannot stand the CGI style animation of RWBY and the new Berserk. It's awful.
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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
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lvl99 Pixel
Member
i mean, does anyone like that?
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Completely done on ones right?I don't understand trying to say that one method of animation is superior to another, but I'm just here for the gifs anyway. I haven't seen anyone mention Richard William's masterpiece "The Thief and the Cobbler" yet (the "Recobbled" cut, not the theatrical release).
Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJry5ReXZVM
Aztechnology
Member
Apparently, yea. Even people in this thread.
Yes my good sir, I do consider myself a connoisseur of the "shitty" school of animation.
m0therzer0
Member
I believe so. If it's not, they could have fooled me.
Ahh! But you are wrong! Those 60's Hanna Barbera cartoons are artfully done. Just look at the decline of HB and TV cartoons in general through the 70s and 80s. The 60's HB cartoons had massive talent behind them, that's why they look so much better. A lot of the guys working on those cartoons came from the Warner Bros, MGM and Disney studios having worked on theatrical shorts in the 40s and 50s.
Believe it or not, the whole system was set up so that an entire episode of The Flintstones could be animated by 2-3 veteran animators and some assistants.
Any form of animation can look shitty if it's done shitty. But up until recently CGI was largely held back by technological limitations that made it a weaker medium for expression.
Zootopia really blew me away, though. As did Inside Out.
I think it's also important to remember that hand-drawn and CGI animation are vastly different processes with the latter being something like a mix between puppeteering and stop-motion.
There's definitely something magical about someone creating life and movement before your very eyes with just a pencil and a stack of paper.
For more interesting insight into Hanna Barbera's TV production and decline read:
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2007/11/hanna-barberas-missed-opportunities.html?m=1
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2007/09/saturday-mornings-and-decline-of.html?m=1
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2008/02/hanna-barbera-fun.html?m=1
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
I still know of productions being drawn on paper. But I don't think "any" films are being colored on cells anymore?
Are there any feature film of the last years, that hasn't been digitally colored?
Gangster Bastard
Member
While I don't think 2D animation could match a movie like Moana in terms of pure visual richness, you tend to appreciate the medium on an entirely different level. A big part of the appeal to 2D animation is that you get a powerful sense of the craftsmanship just by looking at it. The bike chase in Akira might have looked even more beautiful if it was made with 3D animation, but it wouldn't seem nearly as impressive of an achievement specifically because it's a much more sophisticated medium.
This also why the desperate attempts by Japanese animation studios to reproduce the appearance of hand drawn 2D animation with cel-shaded polygons is an exercise in futility, it's like putting up a fake brick wall on a building made out of stucco, it doesn't matter how convincing it looks, it's cheap crap.
I won't say either medium is superior to the other, but 2D is definitely more of an acquired taste in this day and age so it's no wonder it's declining.
Here's a true claim about 2D however: Old-style cel animation is superior to digital.
This also why the desperate attempts by Japanese animation studios to reproduce the appearance of hand drawn 2D animation with cel-shaded polygons is an exercise in futility, it's like putting up a fake brick wall on a building made out of stucco, it doesn't matter how convincing it looks, it's cheap crap.
I won't say either medium is superior to the other, but 2D is definitely more of an acquired taste in this day and age so it's no wonder it's declining.
Here's a true claim about 2D however: Old-style cel animation is superior to digital.
heres an animation from 2010 that mixes 2D and 3D:
https://vimeo.com/15126262
lazy use of both 2D and 3D is ofcourse bad, but when done right its amazing.
DarknessTear
Banned
This is a combination of the two sort of. The backgrounds are 3D, but the character animation is 100% hand drawn.
Some people sure take their animu seriously.
I agree with the OP's premise. People making some weird arguments here. Yeah no shit Pixar (or anybody outside of Japan) is going to emulate the inherent weirdness and visual language/sensibilities of anime, with hand-drawn animation, CGI, puppets or with anything at all.
I agree with the OP's premise. People making some weird arguments here. Yeah no shit Pixar (or anybody outside of Japan) is going to emulate the inherent weirdness and visual language/sensibilities of anime, with hand-drawn animation, CGI, puppets or with anything at all.
This is a combination of the two sort of. The backgrounds are 3D, but the character animation is 100% hand drawn.
Kizumonogatari is a strange beast. Sometime the mix look wonderfull, some other scene seems really odd.
RoninChaos
Member
Besides Pixar's stuff, how to train your dragon was the first CGI animated movie where I felt that the characters had true personality. Toothless especially. Whoever animated toothless really studied animals. We saw so much of our dog's personality in that animation. It was amazing. Still is.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Wheres the Whynotboth image at?
……forgetit
Member
Both have their strengths and weakneses and neither is inheritly superior.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Not one. But done.
RoninChaos
Member
What movie is that?
nausicaa of the valley of the wind
Nausicaa.
Personally I think it has been outdone multiple times animation-wise by Ghibli though.
I love Knights of Sidonia and Ajin, even if their animation isn't all that good. They are high quality shows. Many peeps don't watch them because they are not hand drawn, to them i say "You are missing out big time!"
I mean many people complain because there is too many moe animes these days. But then great shows come along and aren't being watched. All because they are not hand drawn.
I mean many people complain because there is too many moe animes these days. But then great shows come along and aren't being watched. All because they are not hand drawn.
Uno Venova
Banned
still kinda seems like hand drawn is usually better in these gifs 🤷*♂️
lukeskymac
Member
yes... average.
If you actually pay attention to what's happening instead of getting distracted by your screen flashing you'd see there's actually nothing special in the animation of this shot.
2D principles apply well to 3D, but the process of creation is very different between them and hence the thinking and creative process will be different for the animator. If you take a storyboard scene and create it first in 2D and then 3D, or vice versa, you'll find each method takes you down a different thought process and offers a different focus for any vantage point you're looking at in the scene. You will end up with two very different scenes from that storyboard.
There is a specific quality of hand drawn that leaves no mistake that it's drawn by a human. People place a lot of value on work done that way, see also: the arts and crafts movement. 3D is done by human hands, of course, and no less so than 2D, but it's not immediately apparent to people not versed in animation because it's seen through the medium of a computer render as opposed to 'paper'.
That OP isn't going to change any minds though.
There is a specific quality of hand drawn that leaves no mistake that it's drawn by a human. People place a lot of value on work done that way, see also: the arts and crafts movement. 3D is done by human hands, of course, and no less so than 2D, but it's not immediately apparent to people not versed in animation because it's seen through the medium of a computer render as opposed to 'paper'.
That OP isn't going to change any minds though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh I don't doubt their talent, not at all. And I am a major fan of their stuff (well, some anyway - I am not particularly fond of Yogi, Snagglepuss and Hippo). I just like to point that out as a means to counter those false presumptions with hand drawn.
You should watch Kung Fu Panda trilogy - to this day it's still the only one I've seen that managed to capture actual fighting - the movement, the fluidity, the effect - in 3D animation so perfectly.
BUT IT'S DRAGUN BOLL
Intheflorsh
Banned
Some truly stunning animation right there.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
apparently toothless was based on the animators experience with his adopted cat and this reference seems like he annoyed him a bit for reference
"During the film's commentary, directors Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois along with producer Bonnie Arnold reveal that Toothless's movements and body outline were based on one of the artist's cat. "
Likely they used a variety of animals as reference though
3D animation has much in common with puppetry. It's not surprising it the animation feels different to some people -- it's a different thought process... at least in my experience.
Good animation is not going to necessarily flashy or obvious. Effective animation requires subtlety. This is why golden age Disney, for example, gave the broad action scenes to assistant animators and the character scenes to the lead animators.
Good animation is not going to necessarily flashy or obvious. Effective animation requires subtlety. This is why golden age Disney, for example, gave the broad action scenes to assistant animators and the character scenes to the lead animators.
RoninChaos
Member
apparently toothless was based on the animators experience with his adopted cat and this reference seems like he annoyed him a bit for reference
"During the film's commentary, directors Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois along with producer Bonnie Arnold reveal that Toothless's movements and body outline were based on one of the artist's cat. "
Likely they used a variety of animals as reference though
I can totally see that. The animations were definitely a study of someone's animal that they were around a lot.
Fbh
Member
Both can be great.
But I prefer 2D animation in the context of TV shows and lower budget productions.
3D animation can be really stunning when given the right budget and time, like Pixar, Disney animation studios, DreamWorks , etc.
But for stuff made for TV like, say, One piece or Rick and Morty or Vlotron (though Voltron himself is ugly CGI) I think they just look better in 2D
But I prefer 2D animation in the context of TV shows and lower budget productions.
3D animation can be really stunning when given the right budget and time, like Pixar, Disney animation studios, DreamWorks , etc.
But for stuff made for TV like, say, One piece or Rick and Morty or Vlotron (though Voltron himself is ugly CGI) I think they just look better in 2D
I feel like it's a misconception that good animation needs to have a lot of movement.
Some of the best animation is the most subtle or still, as it were, and some of my favorite moments from film and tv have little movement or fewer drawings than a typical WDAS scene. If anything, you're taught by any teacher worth their salt to tone that shit down because more than likely you've mastered timing and squash and stretch and want to Chuck Jones the fuck out of everything.
Good animation is also informed by the context of the surrounding narrative, how things are situated within the frame, and the art direction (a common refrain I hear in Super threads is that it's okay for individual frames to look bad, especially if they're exaggerated inbetweens- that shit will get you thrown out of any reputable house. Every frame must be drawn well. Your keys have to tell the story, the breakdowns have to connect the beats, and the inbetweens have to flesh out the detail. Bad drawings means a worse experience by default. No exceptions.)
In the context of Goku's Kamehameha there, I see no reason why it doesn't qualify as good animation. Goku's form is solidly drawn, and he reacts powerfully against the increase of the beam's power increase without coming off as squishy or weightless. The framing is great, highlighting the scale of the energy beam compared to Goku and his environment. And the environmental effects- the rocks and dust flying up- are classic, both acting as detail to inform the viewer of the physics of the scene and as an added anticipation to the power increase (notice the speed change in the rocks flying upwards). And it's all informed appropriately within the context of the narrative where Goku tries a last ditch effort to subdue Vegeta.
There's honestly no reason to shit on this gif.
Nerdkiller
Membeur
Well, I wouldn't really call it a feature film...but there's this.
The Last Belle
This is also mostly the work of one man over a period of 15 or so years.
lukeskymac
Member
None of what you talked about is actually animation, and even what you DID talk about (shot composition and direction) is being HUGELY overstated.
I thought so too, but apparently it wasn't. Hiroyuki Okiura just has a very life-like animation style that has been accused of rotoscoping many times (specifically his movie Jin Roh). Which is why I think it's top tier hand drawn animation.It is impressive and I agree with your with your first sentence.
I'm pretty sure most of this was rotoscoped, but it's still impressive (probably why Pocahontas is as pretty a film as it is too)
You forgot my favorite one in this sequence:
As an actual fucking animator trained by the people who made the shit you undoubtedly watched in theaters, yes, everything I talked about is animation:
Solid drawing, posing, weight, anticipation, timing, framing, lighting, environmental effects, and narrative. These are principles, characteristics, and specialties of animation.
I'm also not overstating them. Like, they're fucking there in the scene. All you have to do is look at it.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
Did Cuphead have anything to do with this topic being created?
As a card-toting member of the humanities, this does not compute. Always do whatever with excellence, no matter the cost (and time is certainly a cost).
You business people can cut your corners.
I'm also in this camp but without the caveat about personal preference. Got a lot of CGI designers up in here defending their craft because that's the new hotness, but the where are the 2D animators/cartoonists? Their rarity speaks to the caliber of the craft.
I say this and I *love* Moana. And Brave. And a host of Dreamworks films like Kung Fu Panda.
someone posted this on gaf a while ago and its stuck with me. Makes total sense too.
***Obviously talent helps too
As a card-toting member of the humanities, this does not compute. Always do whatever with excellence, no matter the cost (and time is certainly a cost).
You business people can cut your corners.
I'm also in this camp but without the caveat about personal preference. Got a lot of CGI designers up in here defending their craft because that's the new hotness, but the where are the 2D animators/cartoonists? Their rarity speaks to the caliber of the craft.
I say this and I *love* Moana. And Brave. And a host of Dreamworks films like Kung Fu Panda.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's rare due to the shift in teaching. A lot of schools teach the basics of traditional hand drawn and figure anatomy because those are hella important to learn but then overtime transition to working in the tv format that is toonboom/commercial format that is toonboom and flash.
BakedTanooki
Member
This thread is mostly one thing. A great example of how many people still don't know the difference between animation, art or direction.
Still good thread because of nice gifs!
Still good thread because of nice gifs!
greenhadoken
Member
There is good and bad art in both the 2D and 3D realm. As a musician, I truly believe that shit like Glee and the most recent Disney films are completely lacking any soul or human element due to their heavy use of computers to correct pitch, to the extent that it all sounds like a futuristic version of Microsoft Sam. Emma Watson in Beauty and the Beast being the one that completely did me in. I'd much rather have Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone sing out of tune every once in a while in La La Land than have the Rock turned into a cyborg in Moana. I tend to view animation in the same way.
The one thing that I believe makes the use of computers a valuable tool would be direction. I can't deny that many songs are made better through the use of automation and quantizing, just like I can't deny that shows like the most recent season of Samurai Jack aren't gorgeous to behold.
In terms of 3D animation, I think that for the most part Pixar is tasteful in the way they implement computers, where as I believe that Disney animation studios do not understand the importance of human error in their work. In the case of animation, like I previously said, I think it all depends on your direction. For the record, I think a lot of those images in the OP are charming, because again, they are human.
Edit: It looks like many have made the same point, I guess I'm just in here for the art now
The one thing that I believe makes the use of computers a valuable tool would be direction. I can't deny that many songs are made better through the use of automation and quantizing, just like I can't deny that shows like the most recent season of Samurai Jack aren't gorgeous to behold.
In terms of 3D animation, I think that for the most part Pixar is tasteful in the way they implement computers, where as I believe that Disney animation studios do not understand the importance of human error in their work. In the case of animation, like I previously said, I think it all depends on your direction. For the record, I think a lot of those images in the OP are charming, because again, they are human.
Edit: It looks like many have made the same point, I guess I'm just in here for the art now
I'd say when it comes to anime 2D is usually preferable as most of them are already based on a 2D source material which shapes our expectation. For example it's hard to imagine One Punch Man turning out so well if it had been pure CG with the exact same budget. It just wouldn't look as faithful.
A lot of animators are paid per frame, so yeah, corners inevitably need to be cut to not wind up in poverty.
davidwhangchoi
Member
Transformers was so much better than Beast wars