veloxStrix
Banned
So what is the goal of Sonic then? Go fast and complete the level at top speed or find collectibles? The issue is that the two of them are direct opposite design philosophies.
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I don't understand how you're supposed to play Sonic games.
- Thread starter digitalrelic
- Start date
So what is the goal of Sonic then? Go fast and complete the level at top speed or find collectibles? The issue is that the two of them are direct opposite design philosophies.
What's so hard to understand? The point of a level is get to point A to point B. Multiple pathways to get there. You collect rings to get enough to enter bonus stages where you can try for chaos emeralds.
It's literally no different than any other 2d platform game. The more you learn levels the faster you can complete them.
It's literally no different than any other 2d platform game. The more you learn levels the faster you can complete them.
It's both. Your first time through you take the time to learn the layouts and search for secrets so that in future runs you can blaze through at top speed.
Shifty
Member
You're not holding right hard enough. You gotta really jam your thumb in there.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
Sure, if you approach them at the same time. I look at the 2D Sonics being more towards a platformer to begin with where you take your time, but then slowly morphs into a game that accommodates for speed running in its level design when you start to master them.
Going fast is a sign of proficiency at that level. The better you get, the more you can sustain motion and momentum. When you get used to it it's nice to have a game that changes significantly both in terms of access to the level itself and how you complete it.
I was not generalizing, I said there are some Nintendo zealots in this thread. And I wanted to highlight that their attitude and points came from some resentment dating to the console wars era.
But of course there's also people with legitimate doubts (like the OP, I believe). And I also mentioned them in my message, celebrating that they will probably get to know the classic Sonics first hand thanks to Mania, and getting rid of some of the misconceptions caused by the horrible 3D games and other reasons...
PaulBizkit
Member
This, just play the game and figure it out. I mean, it's freakin' SONIC of all things.
I could expect those questions for a game like Out Of This World or even Final Fantasy Tactics, but no for SONIC.
Great avatar, man
I still can't tell if the confusion is earnest or if people think they cracked the critique code and can now prove empirically by feigning confusion that Sonic sucks and always has.
Explore the levels, get the rings, get the chaos emeralds, beat the game. If you play it through multiple times you get used to the levels and, just like any platformer, you learn how to move more efficiently (with increased speed via BLAST PROCESSING) through the level. It's not "speedrun: the game" but that's not to say going fast is off the table.
Is this a common gripe for BotW? The ambiguity of the game design? Do I save the princess now or do I wait? Do I get all the Divine Beasts or not? What is point of getting all the shrines? Oh shit, my weapon broke. I guess I'm not supposed to use the weapons?
Explore the levels, get the rings, get the chaos emeralds, beat the game. If you play it through multiple times you get used to the levels and, just like any platformer, you learn how to move more efficiently (with increased speed via BLAST PROCESSING) through the level. It's not "speedrun: the game" but that's not to say going fast is off the table.
Is this a common gripe for BotW? The ambiguity of the game design? Do I save the princess now or do I wait? Do I get all the Divine Beasts or not? What is point of getting all the shrines? Oh shit, my weapon broke. I guess I'm not supposed to use the weapons?
You have to decide for yourself. Just because the game didn't separate things out into time trials or collect them all modes doesn't mean that you can't decide what to do for yourself. You can always come back to a level and play with a different goal in mind, Once you beat the game.
You could ask a lot of those questions for a Mario game and get similar answers.
What are coins for beyond gaining lives and points?
Need to kill all the enemies?
Why collect red coins? Or other collectibles?
Why should I explore?
Why am I playing a video game?
What are coins for beyond gaining lives and points?
Rings offer more use in a Sonic game, they are what let you gain access to Special Stages at checkpoints. And let you stay alive if you get hit, no matter how many times you get hit as long as you hold at least 1 ring.
Need to kill all the enemies?
See every game ever with enemies? But no, you can try to challenge yourself to avoid enemies and only attack the bosses. Because why not? Play how you want.
Why collect red coins? Or other collectibles?
For the same reasons in a Sonic game, to unlock extra gameplay mechanics and explore new areas of a game.
Why should I explore?
To find areas usually with items that reward you for exploring, and because its fun?
Why am I playing a video game?
Probably for the same reason you started playing them!
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I mean, I always saw it as a mix of speed running and collecting. Collect the most shit as fast as you can for max points. Never saw it as all that complicated.
Mario, in a way, is similar, albeit very different level design. In Mario you get bonuses for finishing quicker, but you also want to collect a lot of coins.
Mario, in a way, is similar, albeit very different level design. In Mario you get bonuses for finishing quicker, but you also want to collect a lot of coins.
The game is just fast; it doesn't require the player to be fast. The actual gameplay goal is momentum optimization and exploitation: a 2D platformer starring a pinball or skateboard.
Novel Mike
Member
I do not understand how 2D Sonic games are baffling anyone.
I mean you could literally ask most of those same questions about Mario, Crash or any other platformer, as a child I understood Rings keep you alive, going fast was fun and also trying to take time to explore a bit would generally get me bonus stages or something to that effect. It's not complicated.
I mean you could literally ask most of those same questions about Mario, Crash or any other platformer, as a child I understood Rings keep you alive, going fast was fun and also trying to take time to explore a bit would generally get me bonus stages or something to that effect. It's not complicated.
veloxStrix
Banned
Okay, compare it to Mario then. Mario has collectibles and secrets which encourage you to find them as they offer different or easier ways to finish the map - extra lives, game changing abilities, etc. In Sonic you get rings which give you health (sort of), extra lives, and access to special levels which give you... rings and extra lives? Its always just seemed kind of bland and distracting from the fun parts of the game.
I haven't played enough Sonic to know if it sucks, but from what I've played I don't see much of a reason to go back to it over "any other 2d platform game". Personally.
ZiggyPalffyLA
Member
The goal is to complete the game by completing the levels. With the secondary goal of getting the chaos emeralds. That is the explicit win condition of all the classic Sonic games.
Naturally, in the actual act of playing the game you are not limited by the explicit win condition.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Edit: Oops, wrong thread. Sorry.
Shifty
Member
The goal is to complete the level. Whether you do that at top speed or slow down and look for collectibles is up to you.
The design philosophies' presence in the game doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
Special Stages give emeralds that get you true endings and a super form
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
Wrong thread?
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Probably not but atleast all of the rings are shiny and you cant tell the difference between them instead of a dull wrench being "shiny"The ๖ۜBronx;246209334 said:
Mr. Phellps
Member
I usually just dash through it making quick decisions as to where I should go when it's not clear if I should jump or just keeping dashing hoping for the best and breaking as many boxes as I can without stopping.
Which is why the underwater levels always sucked and made no sense to me.
Which is why the underwater levels always sucked and made no sense to me.
Flame Lord
Member
No one's confused about how to play the game, it's just that it feels like shit.
Are they? Have you ever watched a 100% speed run?
Beating the special stages actually unlocks a special power up + ending and (in Mania) unlock extra modes and stuff.
For me, the actual act of playing the game is significantly more fun than literally every other platformer I've played. That's all the reason I need.
Unless you think games must adhere to an explicit reward model for them to be worth playing.
I agree with two of these, which has me worried about my memories of spyro.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
The reason I never want them to remake it.
Me!!! Jazz Jackrabbit was awesome!
You know, I remember listening to playground discussion from my childhood - I don't remember if I participated - wherein a kid debated that Jazz Jackrabbit was faster than Sonic the Hedgehog. He explained that Sonic the Hedgehog was only as fast as the speed of sound, while Jazz Jackrabbit was as fast as the speed of light.
I tried! And I only trolled a little bit.
Did you know that, when you buy a game, you can play it more than once?
What you see as opposite philosophies, I see a very flexible game with a lot of replayability.
I can enjoy going at top speed, I can enjoy exploring and getting the collectibles, and If I really like the game I can try to marry both and go at middle-speed and get all the collectibles as fast as I can.
Choice is a wonderful thing!
Telephone Man
Member
With Sonic 1 and 2, you just had to get to the end, Arcade style since there are no saves. And collecting Choas Emeralds was just a bonus, a True Ending with Super Sonic (in 2) to play with.
Sonic 3&K and Mania are the ones that have a save feature and required exploration, and even then only for the Choas/Super Emeralds.
Outside of Emeralds, the paths only served for speedrun reasons. Higher=faster but more difficult to stay there.
Seriously, this is like playing modern Mario and questioning "Am I supposed to get the Star Coins or not? The flag pole is there so what do I go for?"
MugiwaraCole
Member
...or you can master the game and go fast without getting stopped by many obstacles, if any?
Jesus Christ.
No, they're not. Guys, pls.
veloxStrix
Banned
Ah, this is where I would be confused. I only ever played the 8 bit versions which were apparently completely different from the 16bit. Special stages in the 8-bit did literally nothing.
Those bonus stages give you emeralds, or in other bonus stages might give you power ups like a shield. Get all the emeralds and you unlock the true ending and a Super Sonic form to play with.
The bonus stages also help in breaking up the pacing a bit.
Fair enough. I'll try Sonic Mania following some of the tips here.
Hopefully it will click, because I really enjoy the presentation side of the games.
Shifty
Member
Sonic's equivalent to mario's game changing abilities are the elemental shields introduced in S3/K. Get them from a box, lose them if you get hit. It works the same.
The 8-bit games are very simple in comparison to their later counterparts. They still have chaos emeralds that unlock a true ending, but you have to find them lying around the stages.
Whcih is a very different stance than "These games were always terrible and people were just stupid kids" - which is just factually wrong.
Wrong, you could earn continues there. And increase your total score, if you care about that.
The Omega Man
Member
Is it me or some people seem really mad or upset about OP's question?, a lot of defensive and whatabaoutism as answers for what seem valid questions.
I disagree, I have a lot of fun with the slow and methodical platforming of Marble Zone. It feels weird due to Sonic's physics, but it's still fun to me.
If you ever come to Argentina, I'm buying you a beer.Me!!! Jazz Jackrabbit was awesome!
To be honest I'm not sure if this thread really matters. The people who have the sonic sucks agenda are just going to skip all of the posters claiming otherwise and point to the people who don't quite get it as their proof, despite the fact it's a similar problem to have in sandbox games. I do hope you were reading the thread all the way OP and didn't just take the side of the sonic six crew. This goes double for you lurkers out there.
You don't need an in-game reason to go fast. You do it because you can and you want to. Otherwise you can take it slow (within the time limit, which I don't like) and explore the levels. As long as you play well enough, you can go as fast as you want.
Telephone Man
Member
1) It's all been done before.
Even within this very thread, people are repeating OP's questions, gets them answered but don't agree, repeats.
2) The first page in general is trollish as hell. OP isn't at fault here though.
Not about the OP, but yes about the first couple of replies.
All these posts saying how shit classic Sonic is, how at odds and confusing the structure is for them, and everything else, etc, are really making me want to just shit-post along with them and say how stunned I am at how many people are actually this bad at video games.
But that would be childish now, wouldn't it?
But that would be childish now, wouldn't it?
What is the benefit of going fast in Sonic? There has to be a reason why you as a player want to bother taking risks. Also why am I collecting a bunch of rings when you can just cheese the game with 1 and only die rarely due to physical contact with something bad?
The first level in Sonic 1 teaches you literally everything about the game in the first like 3 screens and then immediately after throws a large map with several branching paths interconnected in confusing ways. It's a clusterfuck to be honest
The first level in Sonic 1 teaches you literally everything about the game in the first like 3 screens and then immediately after throws a large map with several branching paths interconnected in confusing ways. It's a clusterfuck to be honest
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
All these posts saying how shit classic Sonic is, how at odds and confusing the structure is for them, and everything else, etc, are really making me want to just shit-post along with them and say how stunned I am at how many people are actually this bad at video games.
But that would be childish now, wouldn't it?
I mean, yeh, but you're just shit posting anyway so I'm not sure what your point is. There are childish responses on both sides; "No wonder, Sonic sucks", "Wow, I managed to understand when I was 4". Just ignore them and look for the actual discussion if you want to contribute.
I have no goddamn clue. Had the same reaction at the time.
MugiwaraCole
Member
There's no way in hell you're seriously complaining about risk-taking by going fast in one sentence, and then claiming collecting more than one ring is stupid since you can cheese the game with one ring in another.
Wtf.