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I told my girlfriend she had an imaginary friend..

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wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
How is it judging someone? Where was it said that they're a horrible person b/c they're religious/not religious/a diff religion or they're an idiot?

I think you know well what I'm saying and are just splitting hairs. It's not a literal judgment, merely a people filter, of course. Sure. The point is that it appears to be more shallow to me if creed is the criterium that eliminates the possibility of a relationship instead of behavior and principal morality.
 

aly

Member
It's shallow that it's a dealbreaker. "You are either Christian or I don't want to date you" is not considering what kind of person the other guy is, just the religion. I think it's horrible to filter others like that, honestly.

I'd date a Christian / Muslim / Taoist / Whateverthefuck without judging. I don't get why I shouldn't. In an ideal world, everyone would do this imo. How anyone could think otherwise is beyond me. But w/e, people are people.

Of course it's judgmental. People filter out others for all kinds of things for dating because they want compatibility. Religion is kinda a major thing ( depending on the person) in a person's life since it usually comes with rules on behavior and other things. It's not always as simple as some one just goes to church on Sunday. It can lead to incompatibility between people on major things like raising children for example. That's something you would want to think about during or before dating. Some people get over that hump but others don't and I don't think it is wrong/ or shallow to just throw out options that you think might not work to begin with.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
That's the problem with people like you OP. You have no right/reason to shit on someone else's beliefs, just because they don't hold true to you. I'm not extremely religious myself and I don't believe everything that I've read in the good book, but I realize the benefits of having faith like some people do and I totally respect that. Atheist should stop attacking people with faith, and people with faith should just stfu about people who don't believe in a higher being...Its that simple. More OT you can try your best to salvage what's there, but you might be running into more problems later on especially with the smart ass mocking you've seem to have done. Good luck OP, have some faith ;)

Um, no, we actually have every right to attack beliefs. In no way are they off-limits. Where do you get such a ridiculous idea?
 

Metra

Member
I think that any kind (religious or nonreligious) of parental belief shouldn't be "forced" into children. Allowing the child to be exposed to different ideas, beliefs and behaviors - and not imposing an specific doctrine - is socially beneficial, in my opinion, as it could potentially reduce the risk of forming intolerant/hateful/bigoted individuals in the future.

With that said, I agree that your girlfriend planning to impose her beliefs to your (hypothetical) children is something that should be addressed/discussed. However - and I should note that's not my intention to judge you, in any way - the arguments that you used to approach said situation were very, very poor.
 

T-Dot

Banned
Edit: Thing is, she posted something on my wall on Facebook. Since I was at Uni, I couldn't answer or anything. When I got back home, we started to talk and, suddenly, she started to insult me. She then proceeded to delete every post she had made on my wall, and told me I was not a good boyfriend because I don't do shit (the thing is, I do. And I do a lot of shit for her). She likes these "movie romances", she wants me to do those kind of things, flowers and alll, the thing is, I do it, just not as frecuently as I she wants me to.

First, if she is deleting shit off her Facebook, that's a bad sign. From my experience, when women do that shit, it's over. Secondly, why the eff would you want to be with someone who doesn't appreciate the shit you do for her.

Then, she told me about "the future" that we are no match because she wants to teach her sons about God and religion, and that I, as a guy with no "moral", wouldn't be able to do that, just because. Finally, I was kind of mad, and answered that way.
Edit 2: The thing is, she doesn't. She wants me to believe by any means necessary. I always go to the church with her on sundays, just to make her happy. But, she doesn't respect anything when it comes to religion freedom.

THIS IS WHAT I TOLD HER THE FIRST TIME: I would love for our children to choose their own religion, if they choose any. But don't try to force it on them. They are just kids, they need to grow and learn before choosing things like religion.
Then she told me they were going to be Catholics at all cost.

I'll have to copy and paste every single comment I've made in this thread

It really sounds like she is a nutcase. If she can't accept the fact that you probably have different views from her, then she isn't worth it. She should respect you for having your own theological views. Secondly, do u really want your kids to live in that environment? What if one of them ends up being a homosexual, and has to deal with your gf's religious homophobia.

Not worth it OP.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
I don't think you've made a particularly good case as to why it would be considered shallow aside from "it's judgemental" and "it's not indicative of the person." We've already seen the kinds of arguments that can play out as indicated by this thread for having different beliefs, and although I do think the girl was too quick to judge on you it doesn't mean she was being completely shallow. She just foresaw the major possibility that it could become a major issue and she doesn't want to invest time and her heart into something that will most likely not work in the end. It's not a judgement on you as a person, but on compatibility. Was she wrong? Who knows? But that doesn't sound shallow to me.
Maybe not necessarily shallow, but possibly. Unwilling to be flexible and open-minded wrt religion of the partner for sure though.
Your reasoning is impossible to brush aside because this is all hypothetical, and what you say is possible and that's that. So I must let it stand. But how is it not sad that this is normal to people?

It surely can and does happen that an atheist marries a Christian and they have a happy life and cool kids and all that. I think that's an important possibility to consider for anyone.
Of course it's judgmental. People filter out others for all kinds of things for dating because they want compatibility. Religion is kinda a major thing ( depending on the person) in a person's life since it usually comes with rules on behavior and other things. It's not always as simple as some one just goes to church on Sunday. It can lead to incompatibility between people on major things like raising children for example. That's something you would want to think about during or before dating. Some people get over that hump but others don't and I don't think it is wrong/ or shallow to just throw out options that you think might not work to begin with.
It's certainly more brave, curious, flexible, open and other good things to not make decisions based solely on what you think about God things. Relationships are not exempt from that in my mind. A person that cannot bring himself to do so will be considered shallow by me because the exploration of possible futures is preemptively aborted for lacking of one particular feature that cannot be guaranteed to define a person.
 

Razorback

Member
The OP's post isn't scripture. No need to ignore parts of it and interpret the rest in a goofy way.

pZaUjNK.gif
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Um, no, we actually have every right to attack beliefs. In no way are they off-limits. Where do you get such a ridiculous idea?
um, no, we really don't unless you're just an asshole. The only situation in which you are romantically involved with someone where you can openly mock their beliefs is if you just want to end the relationship.

Is it really that hard to just leave well enough alone? Like even if they mock you first you cant just say its over I'm done, you have to mock their beliefs because you think they are dumb?

If it were vegetarianism or veganism would you still do the same? Or is it only ok because you think religion is bad?

Like I love meat, sorry but I do, I know this about myself. Therefore I could never date a vegetarian or vegan. That doesn't mean I'm going to mock their beliefs just for shits and giggles. Like religion, vegetarianism or veganism often becomes deeply seated beliefs and value systems for the individual, what purpose does it serve me to openly mock them?
 
Thing is, she posted something on my wall on Facebook. Since I was at Uni, I couldn't answer or anything. When I got back home, we started to talk and, suddenly, she started to insult me. She then proceeded to delete every post she had made on my wall, and told me I was not a good boyfriend because I don't do shit (the thing is, I do. And I do a lot of shit for her). She likes these "movie romances", she wants me to do those kind of things, flowers and alll, the thing is, I do it, just not as frecuently as I she wants me to.
Then, she told me about "the future" that we are no match because she wants to teach her sons about God and religion, and that I, as a guy with no "moral", wouldn't be able to do that, just because. Finally, I was kind of mad, and answered that way.

You dodged a bullet. Get out of there.
 
I agree with your edited first post, OP.

You can't simply mock someone's belief, especially if that person is your significant other, it hurts in a way you atheists might not comprehend. It's probably like insulting your son or daughter.
 

Bassets

Banned
It's shallow that it's a dealbreaker. "You are either Christian or I don't want to date you" is not considering what kind of person the other guy is, just the religion. I think it's horrible to filter others like that, honestly.
Kinda what I was trying to say.

I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't consider religion as a factor for the long term, but you should at least consider someone's growth. Anyone can change. And that means they can change there ideas on religion as well.

Going to stick with the sentiment that it's shallow as hell.
 

T-Dot

Banned
Like I love meat, sorry but I do, I know this about myself. Therefore I could never date a vegetarian or vegan. That doesn't mean I'm going to mock their beliefs just for shits and giggles. Like religion, vegetarianism or veganism often becomes deeply seated beliefs and value systems for the individual, what purpose does it serve me to openly mock them?

While the OP did clearly fuck up by mocking her beliefs; his gf is denying him his religous freedom by trying to convert him and dragging him to church.

It's as if you dated a vegetarian and they would force their diet on you. Respecting peoples beliefs is cool and all, but fuck them when they start forcing them on other people against their will.

The OP should do the right thing, and dump her fanatic ass.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
I agree with your edited first post, OP.

You can't simply mock someone's belief, especially if that person is your significant other, it hurts in a way you atheists might not comprehend. It's probably like insulting your son or daughter.

So we're entering "Christian Persecution Complex" territory...

He's right, OP. You couldn't possibly understand having someone belittle you for your views on faith.
 

Two Words

Member
I agree with your edited first post, OP.

You can't simply mock someone's belief, especially if that person is your significant other, it hurts in a way you atheists might not comprehend. It's probably like insulting your son or daughter.
Why are religious people so sensitive to this? Their beliefs are no different than any other belief. There shouldn't be an expectation that the world just plays nice with your views. I'm not in favor of being hostile, but a person's religious views are totally up for questioning when they are the topic at hand, which the girlfriend made.
 
Why are religious people so sensitive to this? Their beliefs are no different than any other belief. There shouldn't be an expectation that the world just plays nice with your views. I'm not in favor of being hostile, but a person's religious views are totally up for questioning when they are the topic at hand, which the girlfriend made.

They're so sensitive because they were brainwashed as children into having a deep emotional connection to their imposed beliefs.
 

T-Dot

Banned
They're so sensitive because they were brainwashed as children into having a deep emotional connection to their imposed beliefs.

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but you do sound awfully like the OP when he mocked his gf's religious beliefs.

Just sayin'
 

Foffy

Banned
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but you do sound awfully like the OP when he mocked his gf's religious beliefs.

Just sayin'

But is he wrong? One of religious faith have a provably false sense of self. This is almost guaranteed to cause suffering and conflict because of how out of bounds it is to reality.
 

T-Dot

Banned
But is he wrong? One of religious faith have a provably false sense of self. This is almost guaranteed to cause suffering and conflict because of how out of bounds it is to reality.

Yes, religion is out of bounds with reality. But I feel he phrased it in a away as to sound as if almost everyone who is religious is due to them being brainwashed as children. While you are right that they are certainly individuals with a false sense of self, there are also people who become religious by their own accord. I think it's much more complicated than just "lol they were brainwashed".
 

Mariolee

Member
Why are religious people so sensitive to this? Their beliefs are no different than any other belief. There shouldn't be an expectation that the world just plays nice with your views. I'm not in favor of being hostile, but a person's religious views are totally up for questioning when they are the topic at hand, which the girlfriend made.

There's a difference between questioning religion and claiming it is false. The latter is genuinely asking in order to understand more about religion while the former is for example starting the conversation about religion with a person with the intent to tell them they're wrong.

Also, in your line of thinking, does that not mean the OP's beliefs that he has morals also up for questioning? So why should the OP be offended in that case?

They're so sensitive because they were brainwashed as children into having a deep emotional connection to their imposed beliefs.

I can't even.
What about people who are atheists and turn to a religion? Were they brainwashed too?
 

Mariolee

Member
But is he wrong? One of religious faith have a provably false sense of self. This is almost guaranteed to cause suffering and conflict because of how out of bounds it is to reality.

As much as we may think the evidence points to there not being a God, it is technically impossible to prove God doesn't exist (which is where the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff comes in). But that's beside the point.

What exactly do you mean by provably false sense of self? What is the true sense of self?
 

Mariolee

Member
Maybe not necessarily shallow, but possibly. Unwilling to be flexible and open-minded wrt religion of the partner for sure though.
Your reasoning is impossible to brush aside because this is all hypothetical, and what you say is possible and that's that. So I must let it stand. But how is it not sad that this is normal to people?

It surely can and does happen that an atheist marries a Christian and they have a happy life and cool kids and all that. I think that's an important possibility to consider for anyone.

Sure, as we've seen in this thread they can put aside their difference but it depends on different people. I mean, people have types and you can judge them on that but then how is that judgement any different than theirs? Just because they act on their judgement?

I suppose we have different ideas of what is shallow, but in my definition being shallow is being concerned about something that will most likely not have any substantial negative effect on your relationship with that person or thing. I think that having different religious perspectives causes enough trouble in many relationships (though not all) that I believe it's a valid reason to perhaps not want to date someone.

Also, in terms of being open-minded, I guess you really have to set to what extent you want that other person to be open-minded and be consistent with yourself with those same terms. Like if you think they should be open minded about religion then shouldn't you also be open minded about religion including the possibility that it may intertwine deeply with a person's personality that it keeps them from committing to a relationship with those who don't hold those same beliefs?

Edit: WHOA. Sorry for the triple post. I will now leave this thread for the third time lol
 

Two Words

Member
There's a difference between questioning religion and claiming it is false. The latter is genuinely asking in order to understand more about religion while the former is for example starting the conversation about religion with a person with the intent to tell them they're wrong.

Also, in your line of thinking, does that not mean the OP's beliefs that he has morals also up for questioning? So why should the OP be offended in that case?



I can't even.
What about people who are atheists and turn to a religion? Were they brainwashed too?
No, I don't think it's only about asking the religious for more information. You can question the validity and argue why a religion is wrong (either factually or morally wrong). She is free to say he is immoral for her reasons and he is free to argue that her reasoning is absurd.
 
Yes, religion is out of bounds with reality. But I feel he phrased it in a away as to sound as if almost everyone who is religious is due to them being brainwashed as children. While you are right that they are certainly individuals with a false sense of self, there are also people who become religious by their own accord. I think it's much more complicated than just "lol they were brainwashed".

Replace brainwashed with taught to think a certain way. Religious people that weren't raised religious are outliers. The vast majority of religious people were raised religious.

I can't even.
What about people who are atheists and turn to a religion? Were they brainwashed too?
See above.
As much as we may think the evidence points to there not being a God, it is technically impossible to prove God doesn't exist (which is where the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff comes in). But that's beside the point.

What exactly do you mean by provably false sense of self? What is the true sense of self?

It's incorrect to say there is no God. It's correct to say it's very unlikely that God exists. Even more unlikely in the case of the Abrahamic God.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
um, no, we really don't unless you're just an asshole. The only situation in which you are romantically involved with someone where you can openly mock their beliefs is if you just want to end the relationship.

Is it really that hard to just leave well enough alone? Like even if they mock you first you cant just say its over I'm done, you have to mock their beliefs because you think they are dumb?

If it were vegetarianism or veganism would you still do the same? Or is it only ok because you think religion is bad?

Like I love meat, sorry but I do, I know this about myself. Therefore I could never date a vegetarian or vegan. That doesn't mean I'm going to mock their beliefs just for shits and giggles. Like religion, vegetarianism or veganism often becomes deeply seated beliefs and value systems for the individual, what purpose does it serve me to openly mock them?

Speaking factually about religion isn't mocking, though.

Edit: let me clarify. I mean factually as in "there is zero credible evidence for gods and the belief systems built to support the idea of their existence", moreso than "religious people are stupid".

My teenage son is christian. In my view, and supported by everything we know about reality, his beliefs are based on things that aren't real. I don't love him any less or think he's an idiot. But I certainly think those beliefs are wrong, and pointing out that they're unsupported by any credible evidence isn't mocking. He understands this.

He's more mature than some of the people complaining about mockery in this thread, that's for sure.
 

T-Dot

Banned
No, I don't think it's only about asking the religious for more information. You can question the validity and argue why a religion is wrong (either factually or morally wrong). She is free to say he is immoral for her reasons and he is free to argue that her reasoning is absurd.

Does she? When I think immoral, I think of murder and rape, not someone having agnostic views on the world and wanting their kids to decide for themselves. While his gf can say what she wants, it doesn't change the fact that she is attacking his character because of a petty difference in theological views.
 

Mariolee

Member
No, I don't think it's only about asking the religious for more information. You can question the validity and argue why a religion is wrong (either factually or morally wrong). She is free to say he is immoral for her reasons and he is free to argue that her reasoning is absurd.

Oh, alright then. As long as they're being treated as equals, then I actually agree with what you're saying, though of course the bias isn't difficult to detect. :p

Replace brainwashed with taught to think a certain way. Religious people that weren't raised religious are outliers. The vast majority of religious people were raised religious.


See above.


It's incorrect to say there is no God. It's correct to say it's very unlikely that God exists. Even more unlikely in the case of the Abrahamic God.

You didn't answer my question though about why those who are irreligious do turn to religion. Calling them outliers doesn't make them any less individuals that had reasons to change.

Eh, I also disagree with your last point but then we would get into a deeper religious argument that is not on topic with this thread.
 

Foffy

Banned
As much as we may think the evidence points to there not being a God, it is technically impossible to prove God doesn't exist (which is where the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff comes in). But that's beside the point.

What exactly do you mean by provably false sense of self? What is the true sense of self?

Almost all evocations of God that infer this cosmos in any way akin to dualism does not match what we know and can prove of reality. The world is non-dual, which gets rid of the creator creating creation model entirely, which is exclusively what most religions proclaim is reality. That entire line of thought should be disqualified from even being considered remotely plausible, and this is alarming as for most people, this is the default position to be made.

As for the false sense of self, it again is rooted in dualism: to believe there is a thinker to thought, a feeler of feelings, and experience of experiences as a kind of outsider. This often infers a soul, self, or ego with free will, which not only divides the organism between "I" and "me", but everything made from that point of reference. These are illusions, and you don't need to be a Vedantist or Buddhist to understand this.

If you feel yourself as an isolated, solidified, constant caricature carried from one moment to the next, you are literally buying nonsense. Most people, regardless of religion, are buying this illusion. It's the ground zero to most human problems, and any action made from that illusion is self is based on ideas, not reality, and is prone of making a mess about the way things really are, to confuse subjective impositions with objective reality.

Understanding this comes with pure reason and understanding that religion can be called bullshit, because it is an affront to what we know and what naturally appears to be so. There's no root for theology to blend with the world: it can only be awkwardly hammered onto the ground. That becomes an issue if the ground moves and uproots what isn't naturally a part of it, and you can see this happen in so many social contexts that it's ridiculous to even be having this conversation on the validity of falsehoods.
 
Sorry that kind religious zeal was never going to make for a workable relationship. People of different beliefs can marry but one had to be willing to accept the others beliefs. Forcing children from a young age into church at the objection of the other is not compromise
 

genjiZERO

Member
Actually I'm pretty sure that's exactly how Catholicism works based on what I was told in church and in catholic schools. If you accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and ask for forgiveness for your sins, you get into heaven. I assume it would have to be an honest repentance, of course, and with Jesus just looking at you and shit I think it would be pretty hard to stick to your guns on being bad/evil/unrepentant/whatever. Everyone has done some good in their life, so "good works" is a given really. And if we start getting into a measuring stick of what is good enough the whole premise falls apart entirely.

No, Catholicism definitely says faith alone is not merely enough. Faith alone is what Luther was preaching by stating "sola fide" (by faith alone).

Here's a wiki on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

Here's a very complicated Roman Catholic article on it: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/justification-sola-fide

I think you either misunderstood or they told you wrong. But this is one of the fundamental differences between Catholicism (both Roman and Orthodox) and Protestantism.
 
So we're entering "Christian Persecution Complex" territory...

He's right, OP. You couldn't possibly understand having someone belittle you for your views on faith.

Why are religious people so sensitive to this? Their beliefs are no different than any other belief. There shouldn't be an expectation that the world just plays nice with your views. I'm not in favor of being hostile, but a person's religious views are totally up for questioning when they are the topic at hand, which the girlfriend made.
As I said you won't understand. It's not a simple belief. If my girlfriend says that I believe in an imaginary friend I'd end the relationship as well. It's disrespectful as it implies I am an idiot for believing it. And something that is deeply important for me. Can't be in a relationship with someone who thinks that way.
 

Jhriad

Member
Sorry to hear about your breakup OP. Don't let it get you down. You'll find someone that's a better fit with time.

That's the problem with people like you OP. You have no right/reason to shit on someone else's beliefs, just because they don't hold true to you. I'm not extremely religious myself and I don't believe everything that I've read in the good book, but I realize the benefits of having faith like some people do and I totally respect that. Atheist should stop attacking people with faith, and people with faith should just stfu about people who don't believe in a higher being...Its that simple. More OT you can try your best to salvage what's there, but you might be running into more problems later on especially with the smart ass mocking you've seem to have done. Good luck OP, have some faith ;)

The problem with people like you is that your response to the thread can be summed up by simply posting TL;DR. Read, then respond, and do it with some less judgmental phrasing.
 
It sucks to have to break up, but this was going to happen sooner or later. She's the kind of person who defines moral as "religious". There is an inherent disrespect associated with this mindset. Condolences though
 

Two Words

Member
As I said you won't understand. It's not a simple belief. If my girlfriend says that I believe in an imaginary friend I'd end the relationship as well. It's disrespectful as it implies I am an idiot for believing it. And something that is deeply important for me. Can't be in a relationship with someone who thinks that way.
That seems like you are applying your own insecurities on what other people say. How is "imaginary friend" not an appropriate description of a theist from an atheist's perspective? Saying "you wouldn't understand" isn't really an argument and it definitely won't convince people to follow you. What yo are saying is tantamount to "we can't handle it".
 

Chococat

Member
She is free to say he is immoral for her reasons and he is free to argue that her reasoning is absurd.

Saying something horrible about someone and using religion as an excuse for those words doesn't make the insult right. If she is going to use religion to justify her position, then her religion up for questioning/mocking.

Yes, the OP could have taken the high road in this case, but his reaction to her words doesn't absolve her of insult towards him.

Its small interactions like this that contribute people being dismissive/hostile to religious folk. Someone of faith clear judge/insulted another human being. He lashed out back at her. Upon reflection, he realizes he was ass and an apologies for it, and is racking his brain for how to make amends. She's done nothing. And many religious people here have circled there wagons to protect their religion against the fedora brigade without acknowledging she was wrong too.
 

Ishida

Banned
You were a jackass. You don't believe the same things that she does, but you didn't have to be a smarter-than-thou jerk.
 

Two Words

Member
Saying something horrible about someone and using religion as an excuse for those words doesn't make the insult right. If she is going to use religion to justify her position, then her religion up for questioning/mocking.

Yes, the OP could have taken the high road in this case, but his reaction to her words doesn't absolve her of insult towards him.

Its small interactions like this that contribute people being dismissive/hostile to religious folk. Someone of faith clear judge/insulted another human being. He lashed out back at her. Upon reflection, he realizes he was ass and an apologies for it, and is racking his brain for how to make amends. She's done nothing. And many religious people here have circled there wagons to protect their religion against the fedora brigade without acknowledging she was wrong too.
True, and I'd argue that he didn't say anything horrible. He allowed the nonsensical story of her religion to hurt her. if her own beliefs make her feel insulted, then what does that say about her beliefs?
 
Oh, alright then. As long as they're being treated as equals, then I actually agree with what you're saying, though of course the bias isn't difficult to detect. :p



You didn't answer my question though about why those who are irreligious do turn to religion. Calling them outliers doesn't make them any less individuals that had reasons to change.

Eh, I also disagree with your last point but then we would get into a deeper religious argument that is not on topic with this thread.

Different ideologies attract different people. A person doesn't have to be raised a theist to become one, just as a person doesn't need to be raised a Marxist to become one. Find me an ideology and I'll find you someone that believes it. That in no way suggest any truth to the ideology.

If you don't want to move thread towards that discussion I'd be open to PMs.
 

Mariolee

Member
Almost all evocations of God that infer this cosmos in any way akin to dualism does not match what we know and can prove of reality. The world is non-dual, which gets rid of the creator creating creation model entirely, which is exclusively what most religions proclaim is reality. That entire line of thought should be disqualified from even being considered remotely plausible, and this is alarming as for most people, this is the default position to be made.

As for the false sense of self, it again is rooted in dualism: to believe there is a thinker to thought, a feeler of feelings, and experience of experiences as a kind of outsider. This often infers a soul, self, or ego with free will, which not only divides the organism between "I" and "me", but everything made from that point of reference. These are illusions, and you don't need to be a Vedantist or Buddhist to understand this.

If you feel yourself as an isolated, solidified, constant caricature carried from one moment to the next, you are literally buying nonsense. Most people, regardless of religion, are buying this illusion. It's the ground zero to most human problems, and any action made from that illusion is self is based on ideas, not reality, and is prone of making a mess about the way things really are, to confuse subjective impositions with objective reality.

There are multiple ways of dualism in Christianity as far as I understand it (though admittedly I have not read too far into this). There's the dualism of God and creation, the dualism of good and evil, dualism of body and mind. You'll have to be specific, unless you're saying all dualism doesn't exist as the world is non-dual? But I'm not sure how you could prove the world is non-dual if we're dealing with the first example I listed of God and creation because then you'd have to prove that God didn't exist by another set of means?

If you're talking about the dualism of good and evil not existing, then fine. But then this isn't just a religious problem, but a human one is it not? If there is no existential objective standard and no real soul to refer to and it is all an illusion, then isn't all morality basically quicksand since there's not really such a thing as a moral standard at all, because how would you then define it? So many different civilizations or even individuals have vastly different ideas of morality and who's to say which is right or wrong if objectively there is no such thing. Yet, not many atheists I've met live like this. They still believe in a right and a wrong. So I mean, then it's not just designated to one of religious faith as you stated originally, so why single them out? In fact, why should the OP be offended in the first place if objectively his morals don't hold any value?

Understanding this comes with pure reason and understanding that religion can be called bullshit, because it is an affront to what we know and what naturally appears to be so. There's no root for theology to blend with the world: it can only be awkwardly hammered onto the ground. That becomes an issue if the ground moves and uproots what isn't naturally a part of it, and you can see this happen in so many social contexts that it's ridiculous to even be having this conversation on the validity of falsehoods.

Perhaps it's not as much of an affront to what naturally appears to be so as you think. Plenty of scientists (1 in 3 in America) have somehow reconciled their faith with their research, and even from an atheistic standpoint it makes sense why one would become religious.
 

Mariolee

Member
Different ideologies attract different people. A person doesn't have to be raised a theist to become one, just as a person doesn't need to be raised a Marxist to become one. Find me an ideology and I'll find you someone that believes it. That in no way suggest any truth to the ideology.

If you don't want to move thread towards that discussion I'd be open to PMs.

I agree, a person doesn't have to be raised theist to become one. But what you seemed to be implying in your original post is that religious people are sensitive about their beliefs because they were indoctrinated into it. However, that doesn't explain the religious people that converted on their own, which is to say that your original claim about indoctrination being the reason they're insensitive is on shaky ground.

I'm a little tired out from all of this debating, but I'd love to send you maybe some resources through PM and if you have questions then we can continue on from there?

OK, I'm seriously done with this thread now lol
 

Two Words

Member
I agree, a person doesn't have to be raised theist to become one. But what you seemed to be implying in your original post is that religious people are sensitive about their beliefs because they were indoctrinated into it. However, that doesn't explain the religious people that converted on their own, which is to say that your original claim about indoctrination being the reason they're insensitive is on shaky ground.

I'm a little tired out from all of this debating, but I'd love to send you maybe some resources through PM and if you have questions then we can continue on from there?
Well what are the reasons they are sensitive to it? I think child indoctrination definitely explains many cases, probably even the majority. There's also those that feel that without their religion that they wouldn't know what to do. Then there are people that may have had a life-changing turn around religion. I think we can agree that the sensitivity is generally based on a heavy investment on religion to the point that they need their views to be true. With that said, none of that is reason to treat these views as untouchable. Somebody being sensitive is not in its own a reason to let it go.
 
I agree, a person doesn't have to be raised theist to become one. But what you seemed to be implying in your original post is that religious people are sensitive about their beliefs because they were indoctrinated into it. However, that doesn't explain the religious people that converted on their own, which is to say that your original claim about indoctrination being the reason they're insensitive is on shaky ground.

I'm a little tired out from all of this debating, but I'd love to send you maybe some resources through PM and if you have questions then we can continue on from there?

My post stated that people that were indoctrinated as children are taught to have deep emotional ties to their beliefs, which leads to the person reacting emotionally whenever someone says something in opposition to those beliefs.

I don't claim to know the reasons people convert to religions from non-religion. I'm sure there are many different factors involved. I'll read whatever you want to PM me.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
As much as we may think the evidence points to there not being a God, it is technically impossible to prove God doesn't exist (which is where the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff comes in). But that's beside the point.
You do realize there's a whole load of difference between simply believing in some generic "God", and being religious, right? You can't disprove a generic god, but you sure as hell can highlight the numerous amounts of reality-denying bollocks found in just about every religious texts, for example.
 

Foffy

Banned
There are multiple ways of dualism in Christianity as far as I understand it (though admittedly I have not read too far into this). There's the dualism of God and creation, the dualism of good and evil, dualism of body and mind. You'll have to be specific, unless you're saying all dualism doesn't exist as the world is non-dual? But I'm not sure how you could prove the world is non-dual if we're dealing with the first example I listed of God and creation because then you'd have to prove that God didn't exist by another set of means?

If you're talking about the dualism of good and evil not existing, then fine. But then this isn't just a religious problem, but a human one is it not? If there is no existential objective standard and no real soul to refer to and it is all an illusion, then isn't all morality basically quicksand since there's not really such a thing as a moral standard at all, because how would you then define it? So many different civilizations or even individuals have vastly different ideas of morality and who's to say which is right or wrong if objectively there is no such thing. Yet, not many atheists I've met live like this. They still believe in a right and a wrong. So I mean, then it's not just designated to one of religious faith as you stated originally, so why single them out? In fact, why should the OP be offended in the first place if objectively his morals don't hold any value?

All dualism is false. The traditional sense of God infers it/He/She as "other", and thus, dual. Every evocation of dualism is an affront to reality for such principles. Period. Dualism implies separate. Separate from what? The answer is always something from thought, and it's within thought that divisive concepts begin. Non-dualism is understanding all that naturally exists is parts of a whole, for it's all interconnected and interdependent, and there is nothing that anything can be cut off from. In an everyday sort of sense, most people don't grasp that understanding of reality. It goes against our collective common sense, but that has been rigged according to what we can understand from science. It would not be alarming to assume you might even think of yourself as a separate, isolated person, but in order for that to be so, you'd have to be you all the time.

There are countless experiential gimmicks that can be used to help someone have the first-person experience to see through the illusion, if one doesn't wish to simply say "neurology makes these claims, and that's that". I'll even give one: tell me who "I" am from your experience? By "I" I mean your self. It will surely be things projected on the organism, such as a name and various social roles of identity. Try and look for this "I" when looking or hearing, and you might see it's not there. There's no outsider to those experiences, and the ego is the illusion of an outsider.

Right and wrong should come from humanity, from understanding what is. Using morality is a fucking terrible line of justification, for that comes from conditioning, not understanding. Morals play the game of self, that image, and all of the good and bad evocations given therein. Most people can't even wrap their heads around the fact that in the natural sense, nothing is good nor bad, but it is the thought over what is that creates that, which in turn creates the conflict in our world. For the OP to be offended, that's caught in the problem of personalizing things. He is still playing the illusion of "me" as an image, as an isolated skin-encapsulated ego, and confusing that image with reality. This is what society gets wrong right out of the gate, so almost everyone within most societies has a factually false identity of themselves. It could be precisely why this post probably making sounds like psychobabble or New Age mysticism.

You are correct that it's not exclusive to religion, but religion and society, but much of this starts by religion and society tends to carry similar principles of thought. They're both clearly wrong on this topic, though.

Perhaps it's not as much of an affront to what naturally appears to be so as you think. Plenty of scientists (1 in 3 in America) have somehow reconciled their faith with their research, and even from an atheistic standpoint it makes sense why one would become religious.

If you think God is "what there is", the manifestation of all ground of being, you don't need to use the word God. God is creator of creating, Big Papa, something other than you. All of that is stupid thinking based on poor concepts. If you claim God to be some "innate intelligence" allowing all of this to manifest, the word still infers a creator behind it. Instead, we have a reality that merely happens of itself, and all that can be explained is what we can figure out in the happenings.

To explain this cosmos, there appear to be three large models at play.

- Ceramic: This infers the cosmos was made, like a potter makes a pot. This is laughable for we cannot find nor prove a potter, so we can only conceptualize one. This falls into a great problem called "God of the gaps" for this potter is continued to be eroded from plausibility as we study more of the cosmos.

- Mechanical: This is usually taken as a direct antithesis to to the Ceramic model. This infers all that exists is flukes and parts. This also promotes dualism in a way that fails to match the world, and all this accomplishes is getting rid of Big Boss.

- Organic: The best way to describe this model would be to say what happens occurs of itself. It's not made by a potter, nor a fluke, but grown on processes that have some innate properties that allow manifestation of various forms in this universe. This model is the most applicable to science without any game of retrofitting, and the only one that proposes non-dualism, making it the only likely candidate we have if we're going to have any serious conversation on this universe.

Most people still believe in the Ceramic model, and this is a great issue, for that is continued to be enforced over reality, which assures issues regarding compatibility.
 

Two Words

Member
I swear to god, you people don't even read the thread. Not going to waste my time with you.
I've made plenty of threads where it was obvious that the majority of people did not read the OP at all. Ignore these people. They just want to have a podium to be heard.
 
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