Jonneh3003
Banned
They're fools. Best to ignore them and just enjoy what they're missing out on.
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Indie Games:why do gamers disregard them when it comes to a system's library?
- Thread starter Kimawolf
- Start date
I always assumed it was because there were so many of them, and a lot of them blend together and don't get much promotion, so most are disregarded outside of the ones that advertise well or are recommended to people fairly often. If you take the time to look there are plenty of awesome indie titles.
Frost Walrus
Member
I think, especially early on, people view their console purchase as a sort of investment. Thus, lower budget games and multiplats can fall by the wayside for many. Usually it takes good word of mouth for people to check them out.
It also doesn't help that independent games will never have the hype marketing machines AAA games do.
It also doesn't help that independent games will never have the hype marketing machines AAA games do.
xabbott
Member
Seems like something system warriors love to use/disregard depending on the time. Such as PS4's early "ps4 has no games."
Then when XB1 gets indies that aren't on other consoles like Super Hot or Thimbleweed. Or whatever else is on Game Preview. They're just disregarded because they're on PC.
Also with the PS+, Games for Gold, and Humble Bundle situation a lot of people just can't justify any price for an indie. "I'll wait for it on X."
Then when XB1 gets indies that aren't on other consoles like Super Hot or Thimbleweed. Or whatever else is on Game Preview. They're just disregarded because they're on PC.
Also with the PS+, Games for Gold, and Humble Bundle situation a lot of people just can't justify any price for an indie. "I'll wait for it on X."
Clarkus Darkus
Member
I dont care for them personally, They don't interest me in the slightest. My console and TV deserve better.
If i wanted experiences like indie games i'd whack out my mega drive or master system and play Aztec Adventure, Captain Silver, Transbot or flashback.
Steam is full of clutter like those kind of games, Doesn't mean there not games though.
If i wanted experiences like indie games i'd whack out my mega drive or master system and play Aztec Adventure, Captain Silver, Transbot or flashback.
Steam is full of clutter like those kind of games, Doesn't mean there not games though.
StereoVsn
Member
In case of the Switch, they are out on PC, PS4 and most likely Xbox. It really doesn't become a particular defferintiating factor when those games have been available for a while on other systems.
Dark Cloud
Member
Really? Graceful Explosion Machine was? Snake Pass was? Mr. Shifty was?
The Baron Count
Member
People dislike and write them off for the same reason that people dislike and write off AAA games. They don't like most of them, or rather the ones they have played.
I personally have almost zero interest in 99 percent of indie stuff that I see. I also find the notion that indie games as a whole are innovating to be absolutely fucking absurd. Every time I see another hack side scroller or survival game I roll my eyes. Just like I imagine people that love those games roll their eyes at every new shoot bang game that comes out.
There are some excellent indie games out there, there is no doubt about it and they CERTAINLY aren't limited to just what I described. There are some legitimately ground breaking ideas that don't require big budgets at all that are a perfect fit for that type of format. Cool stuff like Her Story, Undertale, Papers Please and Super Hot are things that simply wouldn't exist otherwise and I think stuff like that is really what I personally would want more indie devs to do. I am far less interested in something that seems like it was made to tickle the nostalgia nerve of people who think it's super edgy to shit on modern games.
Every generation, I get excited at what the new hardware power will bring to the table in terms of immersion. Graphics are not absolutely required for me to be immersed in a game of course. I still think games like Thief and Deus Ex are some of the most immersive experiences around despite their age, but being able to explore a realistic looking and believable world that is enabled by high production values is incredible to me.
I already see a bunch of hipster, high horse responses in here from people who think that those of us who like big budget titles are brainwashed or conditioned. That's bullshit. We simply don't like the same games.
Since this is really about the Switch, I will specifically say that even if I wanted to play those types of games, I sure as hell wouldn't be getting excited about my shiny new system doing it when even an underpowered PC can play most of the really great stuff that has come out of that scene. And I'm obviously talking about most of the 2d type things. If you really want to play them on the go then cool I guess, but I don't find that compelling in the slightest.
I personally have almost zero interest in 99 percent of indie stuff that I see. I also find the notion that indie games as a whole are innovating to be absolutely fucking absurd. Every time I see another hack side scroller or survival game I roll my eyes. Just like I imagine people that love those games roll their eyes at every new shoot bang game that comes out.
There are some excellent indie games out there, there is no doubt about it and they CERTAINLY aren't limited to just what I described. There are some legitimately ground breaking ideas that don't require big budgets at all that are a perfect fit for that type of format. Cool stuff like Her Story, Undertale, Papers Please and Super Hot are things that simply wouldn't exist otherwise and I think stuff like that is really what I personally would want more indie devs to do. I am far less interested in something that seems like it was made to tickle the nostalgia nerve of people who think it's super edgy to shit on modern games.
Every generation, I get excited at what the new hardware power will bring to the table in terms of immersion. Graphics are not absolutely required for me to be immersed in a game of course. I still think games like Thief and Deus Ex are some of the most immersive experiences around despite their age, but being able to explore a realistic looking and believable world that is enabled by high production values is incredible to me.
I already see a bunch of hipster, high horse responses in here from people who think that those of us who like big budget titles are brainwashed or conditioned. That's bullshit. We simply don't like the same games.
Since this is really about the Switch, I will specifically say that even if I wanted to play those types of games, I sure as hell wouldn't be getting excited about my shiny new system doing it when even an underpowered PC can play most of the really great stuff that has come out of that scene. And I'm obviously talking about most of the 2d type things. If you really want to play them on the go then cool I guess, but I don't find that compelling in the slightest.
LordRaptor
Member
KnightimeX_Legacy
Banned
Most indie games remind me of those crapware games you would find in the Free Games section of AOL or whatever.
99% of them is forgettable trash.
That still holds true today.
Most of them feel like imitation games, like half-assed versions of titles you would actually WANT to play.
So yeah. I agree.
Fake games indeed!
99% of them is forgettable trash.
That still holds true today.
Most of them feel like imitation games, like half-assed versions of titles you would actually WANT to play.
So yeah. I agree.
Fake games indeed!
I still want a proper definition of Indie before I go and write off a huge swathe of games. Does it have to be one person in a basement? or a garage? is it no publisher? is it ten people or less? is it 20 people or less? is it released by a publisher after entering new territories? or releasing on new systems? what about successful kickstarters who then get backing?
Because while I find the bullshit churned out retro 2D garbage more a negative than positive there is a lot more indie stuff out there than that.
Because while I find the bullshit churned out retro 2D garbage more a negative than positive there is a lot more indie stuff out there than that.
Magic Mushroom
Member
What reliance on pixel art? It's just one technique. How about The Witness? Inside? Ori and the Blind Forest? What Remains of Edith Finch? Elite Dangerous? Cuphead?
Even if you don't like pixel art, indies provide some of the most stunning graphics out there.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
The happy medium of good quality AAA console graphics remains the sweet spot for many gamers. I also think most prominent indie titles' ubiquity means they're disregarded as a real plus point for any particular system. There's definitely a different reaction to most exclusive indies of some scope.
The Baron Count
Member
I specifically said that there was far more out there than just what I described, but let's not pretend that a quick perusal through Steam's Indie section doesn't get you smacked in the face with a thousand pixel art type things upon first glance.
It is NOT a coincidence that so many people associate indie games with that look. It's an association that exists for a reason.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Let me tell you about a little game called Minecraft.
Or alternatively maybe some of us just aren't interested by most. Why is it not ok to not find most interesting? I don't like sports games either and 1 that doesn't mean I consider them bad games they just aren't for me 2. No one tries to guilt trip me or accuse me of being a "console warrior" just cause I dislike them. Yes I know indie covers a wide range but most are more simplistic cause of game budget (like a lot of platformedrs and I really am not big on that and a lot of 2d stuff and most are linear where as I much prefer open world). Yes, occasionally I find an indie I like but in general I'm not interested.
Not me. Other than microtransactions I much prefer games today and I've been gaming through several generations of games (since Atari was popular). I don't want to go back to those days and I personally hate that attitude too (plus I love it when they bitch about games from PlayStation one era being better as I remember my generation bitching the same thing about those games. I also disagreed with my generation on that).
Magic Mushroom
Member
It's lazy criticism. There are tons and tons of indies that have different graphics. Look at this year alone, from Snake Pass to Yooka Laylee, from The Sexy Brutale to Edith Finch and from Hollow Knight to Little Nightmares; you get all sorts of graphics.
I mean it's cool that it's getting new releases, but why would I buy a switch for those releases when I have 2 other pieces of hardware that I can get the games for cheaper on, especially if I don't value the portability aspect of the hardware?
BassForever
Member
I love indie games but it's hard to count them for or against a system when 90% of the time they're on steam and 80% of the time they're on multiple consoles or handhelds. Indie games also rarely go on sale on consoles or handhelds but can frequently be gotten at 70-80% off on steam.
There is certainly value for certain indie games on consoles or hand helds as opposed to pc (easier access to multiplayer, portability, etc) but I totally get why many ignore them when discussing a consoles value. Even if you aren't a major pc gamer and just have a cheap/functional work pc or laptop odds are it can play 90% of the indie games you'd want to try. That isn't a guarantee for big AAA games so the average consumer is more likely to count a multiplat AAA for a console before they count an indie since they're not limited on where to play the latter.
There is certainly value for certain indie games on consoles or hand helds as opposed to pc (easier access to multiplayer, portability, etc) but I totally get why many ignore them when discussing a consoles value. Even if you aren't a major pc gamer and just have a cheap/functional work pc or laptop odds are it can play 90% of the indie games you'd want to try. That isn't a guarantee for big AAA games so the average consumer is more likely to count a multiplat AAA for a console before they count an indie since they're not limited on where to play the latter.
The Baron Count
Member
And I never said other wise. You're cherry picking standout examples when I was talking about most of the lazy stuff I see.
Admittedly I think that the availability of more advanced engines lately has led to a much wider variety of visual styles than we had a couple years ago.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
And are also 2 years old. But to each their own.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Sports games are a genre, indie games aren't. Also, they're often more complex instead of simplistic because they don't have to please your average Joe. What has more depth, Divinity Original Sin or Mass Effect Andromeda?
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Yup. Heck, one of the reasons I started following the monthly indie release threads here was just to see the sheer variety of art styles. Lot of creativity out there, and many that don't follow the pixel art format. Just perusing the first ten entries for this month's indie thread shows a wealth of visual variety:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358304
I think another part is console gamers being more casual than PC gamers typically are, due to the comparative costs in building a gaming PC versus buying a console. The increased accessibility of a console means that people who buy them may only use them for a handful of larger titles, whereas that's harder to justify for a costly PC rig. PC players are likely to have more time and money allotted for gaming than console players, and would therefore be more willing to try indie games.
johancruijff
Banned
Indie games are hardly exclusives
So in the endless dick measuring contest they are valued less
So in the endless dick measuring contest they are valued less
Magic Mushroom
Member
There is way more graphical variety in indies than in AAA.
I play just as many indie games as AAA games and some of them are a lot better than many AAA games. Not sure what the problem some people have with them.
Some of them can look pretty great too. Just got done playing Inside. That was a very beautiful game despite its subdued pallete.
Some of them can look pretty great too. Just got done playing Inside. That was a very beautiful game despite its subdued pallete.
Aside from the point about pixel art, I agree with this post.
I've loved many indie games - Spelunky, Don't Starve, Braid, Hotline Miami, Cave Story - loved them to bits. But I dislike the vast majority of those I play, and that's what really colours my view.
Why? Well, I buy the biggest and best console hardware to play the games I like to play - big, visually spectacular games. Typically open world games, Nintendo games, and licensed sports games. High budget, lots of 3d content, highly immersive. Those are the games I like, so when considering a systems library those are the ones I'm gonna rate. Indie games just never deliver that kind of thing.
There's no crime in knowing what you like, and judging by the sales charts month after month I'd say I'm in the majority. The idea that I'm some kind of closed-minded dumbass for not liking what other people do is strange to me.
King Gilga
Member
Because they're multiplat and I only count exclusives into my console purchasing decisions.
I like indie games, but they're not games I think about when making decisions.
They're just not something I think that much about in general.
I like indie games, but they're not games I think about when making decisions.
They're just not something I think that much about in general.
Jubenhimer
Member
Yeah I don't get it either. One of the biggest and most influential games this generation is a low-polly adventure game with mechanics about digging holes. Indies hold just as much value to a software library as any AAA game IMO. Hell, even the Platform holders themselves have realized this, which is why they stopped branding digital games separately from retail games this gen because there's no point to it.
The Baron Count
Member
There is also a lot more Indie games in general than AAA games because they are cheaper to make so there is bound to be more variety in their visual makeup. There are absolutely certain trends in visual styling among some of the more popular Indie games though just like there is in the AAA space.
And YOU'RE the one trying to do this versus thing here. Not me. I simply stated that I don't like or have interest in most of them. But you clearly feel the need to continue to express how much better they are than what those of us that don't care for them play most of the time.
That's the perfect word, thank you. don't know why I couldn't place the right word.
I think that's the perfect way to describe how likely quite a few people feel about indie games. Not inherently against them, but not what they spent $400+ on a system to play. I fall in that boat as well to be honest.
They're known for usually being able to run on toasters.
If you want to pay a little more to play it on the go then that's cool. Some have mobile versions. I just mean they're overlooked because they aren't as crucial as bigger console games or exclusives due to being easily accessible elsewhere.
That doesn't diminish their value as games, just their value to the console. I'm overlooking people who only own Switches and people who have no PCs; but, this is an enthusiast board. Of course their value to the console would register differently to those people.
Could you provide your definition of indie for me?
Because some of those games have reasonably big publishers, have reasonably large budgets or are tied to bigger development houses in some way. They are more dissimilar than similar
The Baron Count
Member
Like I said, my comment about pixel art is in hindsight somewhat outdated, but it feels like only very recently that we have started to get such a wide variety of art styles now that Indie devs have access to a lot better technology than they once did as well as the fact that there are just a lot more studios working in that space than there used to be.
Unfortunately I still see the lazy stuff pop up all the time and it irritates me.
FalsettoVibe
Member
I don't think that it's that indie games don't count. It's just that all systems have them. That doesn't make indie games less special, it just means that Switch or any other system isn't all that special for having them.
Magic Mushroom
Member
I'm not saying that at all. I just take issue with the pixel art comment and the one from another poster that stated indie games lack depth compared to AAA, which is untrue.
The Baron Count
Member
Refer to my last post. You're right, what I described certainly isn't the majority these days. But seeing that lazy stuff pop up as often as it still does bothers me because it creates a lot of noise in the market.
I think one of the biggest risks to Indie games right now is something similar to what happened on the app store. A lack of curation that leads to junkware drowning out the things that matter. I'm just going to edit that bit out of my original post because it really wasn't fair.
Magic Mushroom
Member
It's admittedly not easy to define, but you could say the same about AAA. There is a good blog post on this from Wolfire:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/08/what-are-indie-games/
Budget definitely has nothing to do with it. The Witness is indie, but not cheap. Heck, Star Citizen is indie.
I think people who say that are under the impression that it's "cool" to dislike indies, based on visuals/graphics alone. I don't understand it, but I think it's similar to people who downplay Nintendo games as being "kiddie". They think it makes them sound/appear cool/mature.
MisterGrey3000
Member
They're usually not very cinematic.
They're often relatively short.
They're usually cartoony games with simplistic stylized visuals.
They're often retro style, curated/guided/linear experiences.
They're tend to be "simplistic" side-scrolling platforming games of some sort.
They're usually not specifically aimed at older audiences.
Oh and to top it all off, MS and Sony don't generally position them as valuable showstopping experiences within their yearly software road maps.
Indie games just aren't the kind of experiences that the vast majority of enthusiast and core gamers tethered to an Xbox or PlayStation value or are looking for; they're mostly seen as fun, superfluous (sometimes clever) little distractions to tide you over until the next GTA or Witcher-esque game is released.
They're often relatively short.
They're usually cartoony games with simplistic stylized visuals.
They're often retro style, curated/guided/linear experiences.
They're tend to be "simplistic" side-scrolling platforming games of some sort.
They're usually not specifically aimed at older audiences.
Oh and to top it all off, MS and Sony don't generally position them as valuable showstopping experiences within their yearly software road maps.
Indie games just aren't the kind of experiences that the vast majority of enthusiast and core gamers tethered to an Xbox or PlayStation value or are looking for; they're mostly seen as fun, superfluous (sometimes clever) little distractions to tide you over until the next GTA or Witcher-esque game is released.
If you perceive indie games as less than triple-AAA, that's your (or I guess the people you are referring to) loss.
As an aside, indie games rarely sell a person on a system. They're not killer apps in that sense. But once you've purchased the system, the variety and depth of the indie scene adds value and longevity to your purchase.
Hell, practically all the games I play on PC are indie.
As an aside, indie games rarely sell a person on a system. They're not killer apps in that sense. But once you've purchased the system, the variety and depth of the indie scene adds value and longevity to your purchase.
Hell, practically all the games I play on PC are indie.
There are a lot of indie games made in poorly optimized middleware where the incentive and the actuality is to "slam the export to console button" and worry deep testing for major bugs later
So they're not usually unique and the best version is almost always on steam or gog where it's free for them to patch
like right now is a great example, there are two brand new games in the "rogue-like" space, tumbleseed and flinthook. Both are incredibly aesthetically pleasing but run the risk of running out of content too quickly. If they reach a zeitgeist of popularity they could have new content on steam in 2 weeks -> a month and keep this up while sales are high. On consoles its going to cost thousands to patch and they're going to want to delay updates to not be paying that cost every month.
Witness is incredibly overpriced and consumers are paying for all three major rewrites
even after three major rewrites the game still has poor puzzle types (the sound area he didnt want to drop) and pacing issues (the amount of optional content, how the game guides you to new content, all of treetops)
So they're not usually unique and the best version is almost always on steam or gog where it's free for them to patch
like right now is a great example, there are two brand new games in the "rogue-like" space, tumbleseed and flinthook. Both are incredibly aesthetically pleasing but run the risk of running out of content too quickly. If they reach a zeitgeist of popularity they could have new content on steam in 2 weeks -> a month and keep this up while sales are high. On consoles its going to cost thousands to patch and they're going to want to delay updates to not be paying that cost every month.
Witness is incredibly overpriced and consumers are paying for all three major rewrites
even after three major rewrites the game still has poor puzzle types (the sound area he didnt want to drop) and pacing issues (the amount of optional content, how the game guides you to new content, all of treetops)
ForsakenLotus
Member
I think it comes down to what you get really exited about. That what normally sticks out. Uncharted 4. The Witcher. Persona 5. Breath of the Wild. It's the games you either absorb every piece of information on or go on an information blackout.
For me, I love smaller games especially in between these huge AAA games. They are vital to a library for me, but it makes sense that they go under appreciated in the grand scheme of things.
For me, I love smaller games especially in between these huge AAA games. They are vital to a library for me, but it makes sense that they go under appreciated in the grand scheme of things.
poodaddy
Gold Member
I approve this message.