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Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?

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What if the professor asks the following:

1) What do you look like?
2) Are you a "he" or a "she?"

Question #1 determines the model.
Question #2 determines pronoun.

Some people prefer non-binary pronouns. Overall though that isn't a bad suggestion. I mean, the OP only asked if people thought the question was outdated, and if it was possible for Gamefreak to be more inclusive. Yes, it is certainly possible, but no one is blaming Gamefreak for not being more inclusive.
 
Why would having less restrictive customization or more inclusive language cause the ESRB rating to go up? That makes no sense.

Because ESRB is esoteric, like I said. Hell, any indication of romance usually bumps a game to E10+. This is all tangential though, I should stay on topic.
 
The OP is the least angry, attack-like 'critique' on a game/developer I've EVER read on GAF. And not once has a person in this thread speaking in favor of more inclusive options demonstrated outrage, offense, name-calling, or any other disrespectful speech.

You dont need to be mean or offense to blame developers for something. This entire thread is about developers should do x and who cares if it does make a ton of work.
 
Alright its fucking 4 o clock, Ill leave with this.

I hope there may be changes to allow more people to feel included and I hope everyone enjoys Sun and Moon
 
I don't have a problem with the gender options (the more the better) as I do the assumption that the PC in Pokemon has ever meant to be a representation of yourself.

The character is 10 years old, has no input, say, or response to what's going on, and can only be customised in the most basic ways.
 
Because ESRB is esoteric, like I said. Hell, any indication of romance usually bumps a game to E10+. This is all tangential though, I should stay on topic.

This topic has nothing to do with sexual preferences, romantic relationships, oi anything of the sort. Gender and sexuality are not the same.
 
I feel bad for them too, especially if they were thinking of making their next game more inclusive. Some people here seem like they might attack them over it.

I highly doubt that. It's not that they will be outraged with it (some will but not most on gaf or anywhere else that is somewhat smart) but I believe they are saying you can not blame a dev for not giving the option. If they do it I'm sure a dev would be praised by most on here and not outraged by it (we would see gaf getting cleaned up a bit if most was outraged). Just shouldn't take stuff out of context.
 

Seloth

Banned
You dont need to be mean or offense to blame developers for something. This entire thread is about developers should do x and who cares if it does make a ton of work.

Is editing one line of text really a "ton of work" though? I edit quite a few lines of text every day at work but I'm a bit of a workhorse so I don't know what it's like for other people.
 

Platy

Member
What are you talking about.

about the fact that speedrunners usualy go for the japanese version of text heavy games because the text flows faster since it has less characters.

how did the spanish translation worked for agender characters like Guido from Baten Kaidos ?
 
Is editing one line of text really a "ton of work" though? I edit quite a few lines of text every day at work but I'm a bit of a workhorse so I don't know what it's like for other people.

Some people want them to rewrite the entire game to be genderneutral.
 

mollipen

Member
This seems to me to be similar to not believing bisexual people exist. Not in a 'gender=sexuality' way, but just in an 'unfounded position' way.

They aren't at all the same. Not even a bit.


Care to explain why you don't believe in the person ?

Because gender is a deep-seeded part of our being human beings. Someone who can feel like both, and have tendencies of both, 100% believe in that. Someone who cannot make a connection to either gender even enough to identify as one or the other? I don't know how you could even function as a living being on a daily basis. You're making the claim that you don't have one of the most core pieces of identity that we have as humans. That idea goes so, so far beyond being transgender or identifying as both genders, and in the grand scheme of things, would mean you are fundamentally broken as a person on some level, and you've got far bigger problems than how a Pokemon game genders you.

I also have to wonder if people who think they are agender are actually just asexual, and confuse the two. I'm not an expert on all of this, so hey, what I think doesn't matter at the end of the day. I just don't believe it's an actual thing.
 
about the fact that speedrunners usualy go for the japanese version of text heavy games because the text flows faster since it has less characters.

I know what you're talking about, you just derailed the conversation. But whatever, language wasn't never even the point.

So you could put male, female and other options? Wow, but you've been making it sound so complicated all this time..

Did you conciously ignore the part where I said there is no gender-neutral pronoun in Spanish? I don't think choosing "other" in the title screen and the having the characters call you a "he" in-game would make much difference
 

Chastten

Banned
Do you really think kids are so stupid that they can't understand three options or Pokemon Go's character creator?

...Pokémon Go had three options? :p Only played it for a week and spent about 12 seconds in the character select screen like I always do.

It's a bit weird that you considered people were offended when nobody said that.

It's also not just a game for kids, even though they don't deserve any less than we do when it comes to this.

Well, no one's said it outright but the tone of some of the posts in this thread read that way. Might be just me then :)

And yeah, Pokémon is not 'just' for kids, but It's pretty obvious it's aimed at them, and really not at 30-something year old guys like me. I really enjoy them and the kids really love them, but the entire gameworld is made with children and young teens in mind.
 

Fliesen

Member
Lol I'm sorry I triggered you again XD

I think both of your posts highlight the dissonance in the thread. I deal with racial issues more so than gender ones. So more of then than not, I'm educated with racial rhetoric and debate but I'm a complete stranger to gender issues.

sorry, but if you deal with "racial issues", why do you immediately resort to being super dismissive, aggressive, provocative - throwing around toxic lingo like 'OMG triggered' and slippery slopes willy-nilly, when your excuse is that it's about issues that you simply "aren't as familiar with". I don't get that approach, like, at all...
I believe everyone should feel inclusive and I think the dissonance is that when you all talk about gender, we think about sex. I feel that sex isn't a debate. Its nature, it just is what it is. But you're both not talking about that.

Pokemon cares about your gender, not your biological sex. The professor wants to know which pronouns you want to use, the game wants to know which clothing options you should be offered. Both are about gender.

A game's gender choice is almost never about sex.


Also, while i agree with many people posting that "intersex people" or "non gender binary people" are a tiny minority, and - as opposed to many other issues - players of Pokemon games aren't really 'affected' by these issues on a large scale - doesn't that make it even more important?
Isn't this one of the main aspects about minority issues - that non-affected are, too often, (not wilfully) ignorant to the issues at hand? The fact that so many people aren't aware that there's people who identify as neither of the binary genders sounds like the perfect argument for including a third option in Pokemon games.
 

Armigr

Member
One really simple change that I would really appreciate is adjusting the standard text from "Are you a boy or a girl?" to "Would you like to play as a boy or a girl?" Still not ideal from an inclusion perspective, but it's at least a lot less excluding and presumptuous.

You dont need to be mean or offense to blame developers for something. This entire thread is about developers should do x and who cares if it does make a ton of work.

I think your use of the word "blame" here is rather intentionally igniting, because "critique" would both be a more honest representation of what people are doing in this thread and wouldn't paint the people you are disagreeing with in a a dishonestly negative light. It's okay to criticize a company for something that you deem them to do wrong, even if righting that wrong would be a lot of effort. This is a core foundation of free critique.
 

ZServ

Member
It basically asks your gender and there is only two choices. I fail see to novelty in it. I know that you can pick one or the other but what if you associate with neither or both? I just find it lame that it is asking you if you are a boy or girl in the first place and implying that you are either.

I mean what if someone in real life went up to people and asked that question?

Is this something that is forever going to be a tradition of the Pokémon mainline games and remakes? I mean it doesn't have to be worded the way it is , Pokémon Go at least tried to do something about it.

Man, where does this stuff even come from? Your gender is binary, unless you got screwed by genetics. You have male genitals, or female genitals. If you're a female who identifies as a male, cool, that's fine. Then play as a male, or pick female to more closely resemble your current body-type. Whatever works for you. If mentally you feel like you're somewhere in between, you still lean towards one or the other. Pick whatever you're most comfortable with.

This isn't a hard situation to manage. This isn't some stunning revelation to the world. Games that deal with sexuality will have to manage them in an adult way, as it's an adult subject. So yes, you'll want to make sure to let straights be straight, gays be gay, or anywhere on the spectrum that someone may lie. But Pokemon is built for children as its target audience. Children don't even fucking know their favorite color, please, lets not burden them with being gender fluid. The majority of people are raised as their gender, and it statistically isn't really an issue. Yes, there are people that don't fit that mold. But they're *such* an anomaly that at some point a line needs to be drawn. People with physical disabilities are, unfortunately, unable to play some games. That sucks. You don't suddenly become incapable of playing Pokemon because you can't pick "I'm gender fluid."

If this comes off as rude, I sincerely don't mean for it to. I just think that it's important to accept gender fluid people, but also accept that people will always get left out for one reason or another. Eventually, it will happen to you for a reason that you think sucks. Whether it's you being colorblind, or deaf (half-deaf here!), or even just game aesthetics!
Maybe I'm just ignorant to these problems because I'm white and straight.
 

Platy

Member
Did you conciously ignore the part where I said there is no gender-neutral pronoun in Spanish? I don't think choosing "other" in the title screen and the having the characters call you a "he" in-game would make much difference

How this character from Baten Kaitos was translated in spanish ?

1Vy84oU.jpg
 
They aren't at all the same. Not even a bit.




Because gender is a deep-seeded part of our being human beings. Someone who can feel like both, and have tendencies of both, 100% believe in that. Someone who cannot make a connection to either gender even enough to identify as one or the other? I don't know how you could even function as a living being on a daily basis. You're making the claim that you don't have one of the most core pieces of identity that we have as humans have. That idea goes so, so far beyond being transgender or identifying as both genders, and in the grand scheme of things, would mean you are fundamentally broken as a person on some level, and you've got far bigger problems than how a Pokemon game genders you.

I also have to wonder if people who think they are agender are actually just asexual, and confuse the two. I'm not an expert on all of this, so hey, what I think doesn't matter at the end of the day. I just don't believe it's an actual think.

Have you never heard of gender fluid or non-binary identities?

http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Genderfluid

Here, this might help. Please don't call these people broken just because you don't understand them.
 
sorry, but if you deal with "racial issues", why do you immediately resort to being super dismissive, aggressive, provocative - throwing around toxic lingo like 'OMG triggered' and slippery slopes willy-nilly, when your excuse is that it's about issues that you simply "aren't as familiar with". I don't get that approach, like, at all...


Pokemon cares about your gender, not your biological sex. The professor wants to know which pronouns you want to use, the game wants to know which clothing options you should be offered. Both are about gender.

A game's gender choice is almost never about sex.

You brought me back, I apologize for my approach.

I come in peace yo, lesson learned ✌

I will do better to be more educated. Thanks for the discussion.
 

Seloth

Banned
Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding. Maybe introducing these things at a young age is exactly what's needed so they don't grow up so closed minded and ignorant.
 
I might be missing something critical here so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but this concern feels like it could be quite easily addressed.

Drop the question completely and simply ask players to select from a variety of character appearances or styles at the start. Then... let all characters access all the appearance options throughout the game.

As for pronouns, it's been a while since I played a Pokémon game and I apologise, but do the games still use he/she or does dialogue exclusively refer to the character by name?
 
Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding. Maybe introducing these things at a young age is exactly what's needed so they don't grow up so closed minded and ignorant.

So anybody that doesn't agree with you is ignorant? So much for the lack of name calling and "nobody's offended" in this thread.

As for pronouns, it's been a while since I played a Pokémon game and I apologise, but do the games still use he/she or does dialogue exclusively refer to the character by name?

To be really honest I think it rarely uses pronouns
 

mollipen

Member
Have you never heard of gender fluid or non-binary identities?

http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Genderfluid

Here, this might help. Please don't call these people broken just because you don't understand them.

Sure I've heard of them. Doesn't change my opinion. If you honestly truly don't feel like you have any connection to either gender inside of you, that isn't a life you should want to live. You should want to get that fixed about yourself.

And to be clear here, as I am transgender myself (MTF), I also consider myself to have been (and still maybe be?) broken. Transgender people as a whole are broken, because they aren't functioning the way they're supposed to as intended by nature. That isn't something to be ashamed of, but it's something you should want to fix depending on which category you're in.
 

Fliesen

Member
Man, where does this stuff even come from? Your gender is binary, unless you got screwed by genetics. You have male genitals, or female genitals. If you're a female who identifies as a male, cool, that's fine. Then play as a male, or pick female to more closely resemble your current body-type. Whatever works for you. If mentally you feel like you're somewhere in between, you still lean towards one or the other. Pick whatever you're most comfortable with.

This isn't a hard situation to manage. This isn't some stunning revelation to the world. Games that deal with sexuality will have to manage them in an adult way, as it's an adult subject. So yes, you'll want to make sure to let straights be straight, gays be gay, or anywhere on the spectrum that someone may lie. But Pokemon is built for children as its target audience. Children don't even fucking know their favorite color, please, lets not burden them with being gender fluid. The majority of people are raised as their gender, and it statistically isn't really an issue. Yes, there are people that don't fit that mold. But they're *such* an anomaly that at some point a line needs to be drawn. People with physical disabilities are, unfortunately, unable to play some games. That sucks. You don't suddenly become incapable of playing Pokemon because you can't pick "I'm gender fluid."

If this comes off as rude, I sincerely don't mean for it to. I just think that it's important to accept gender fluid people, but also accept that people will always get left out for one reason or another. Eventually, it will happen to you for a reason that you think sucks. Whether it's you being colorblind, or deaf (half-deaf here!), or even just game aesthetics!
Maybe I'm just ignorant to these problems because I'm white and straight.

also, neither do you become incapable of playing Pokemon because someone else can pick "neither".

it's not a zero sum game, just because you don't feel like it's a "win / win" for everyone, it doesn't mean anyone would suffer if another option were to be included. To whose experience would it be detrimental?

The only argument i cannot really judge is the localization / language argument, because i only speak German, English and French, where i feel like it'd work out fine - you barely have people talking about you in the 3rd person in Pokemon games, and "you" and "i" are genderless in these languages, while pronouns could be avoided by simply replacing "him/his" and "her/hers" with either "them/their" or the player's character's name. ("We don't have a chance. Fliesen's pokemon still need training, and mine are exhausted.")

You brought me back, I apologize for my approach.

I come in peace yo, lesson learned ✌

I will do better to be more educated. Thanks for the discussion.

[/untriggered] ;)
 
I might be missing something critical here so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but this concern feels like it could be quite easily addressed.

Drop the question completely and simply ask players to select from a variety of character appearances or styles at the start. Then... let all characters access all the appearance options throughout the game.

As for pronouns, it's been a while since I played a Pokémon game and I apologise, but do the games still use he/she or does dialogue exclusively refer to the character by name?
This is a good suggestion, yep. They typically refer to the player character by name, but I believe there are occasional uses of gendered pronouns. Can't really remember correctly, though the OP was mainly about the initial question and customization options being restricted by gender.
 
I played this game in english and Guillo is the first agender character from games that comes to mind =P

...in a game of text. The first is totaly Nights

No. I meant that you tell me how it was translated into Spanish, because I certaintly don't know.
 

Seloth

Banned
So anybody that doesn't agree with you is ignorant? So much for the lack of name calling and "nobody's offended" in this thread.

I'm not offended, astounded would be the more apt term :)

I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, that doesn't make them ignorant.

Saying it's too hard, it's not an issue or dismissing it with "it's just a kids game". That's ignorant.
 

Ascenion

Member
Man, where does this stuff even come from? Your gender is binary, unless you got screwed by genetics. You have male genitals, or female genitals. If you're a female who identifies as a male, cool, that's fine. Then play as a male, or pick female to more closely resemble your current body-type. Whatever works for you. If mentally you feel like you're somewhere in between, you still lean towards one or the other. Pick whatever you're most comfortable with.

That's incorrect. Gender is not binary, it is a social construct. What you're referring to is your biological sex which is commonly thought to be binary but debatably so (XX is a girl, XY is a boy but then XXY also exists but it's debatable).
 

Armigr

Member
Man, where does this stuff even come from? Your gender is binary, unless you got screwed by genetics. You have male genitals, or female genitals. If you're a female who identifies as a male, cool, that's fine. Then play as a male, or pick female to more closely resemble your current body-type. Whatever works for you. If mentally you feel like you're somewhere in between, you still lean towards one or the other. Pick whatever you're most comfortable with.

There's a rather big difference between sex and gender that I think you're eschewing here. Sex is binary, you can only have the sexual characteristics of either a man or a woman (and even then, there are biological anomalies that leave people in the middle from time to time.) Gender, on the other hand, is entirely a theoretical construct that we--as a society--created. As such, it can be whatever we want it to be. We are not obligated to conform our definition of gender to what it has historically been.

edit: Beaten by a mere minute!
 

Platy

Member
Sure I've heard of them. Doesn't change my opinion. If you honestly truly don't feel like you have any connection to either gender inside of you, that isn't a life you should want to live. You should want to get that fixed about yourself.

And to be clear here, as I am transgender myself (MTF), I also consider myself to have been (and still maybe be?) broken. Transgender people as a whole are broken, because they aren't functioning the way they're supposed to as intended by nature. That isn't something to be ashamed of, but it's something you should want to fix depending on which category you're in.

I have SO MANY PROBLEMS with your wording that.... i can't even BEGIN to articulate.
So I will just say that I am really sad that you feel broken

But to stay on topic, it might help you thinking that there are 3 genders ... so agender is atucaly the third. or if male is 1 and female is 0 than agender is 0,5 ... something that makes people not recognize with either. THEY HAVE a gender, but since it is not male or female than they go with the point of view of society and say that they don't have ay of the aceptable genders
 
Sure I've heard of them. Doesn't change my opinion. If you honestly truly don't feel like you have any connection to either gender inside of you, that isn't a life you should want to live. You should want to get that fixed about yourself.

And to be clear here, as I am transgender myself (MTF), I also consider myself to have been (and still maybe be?) broken. Transgender people as a whole are broken, because they aren't functioning the way they're supposed to as intended by nature. That isn't something to be ashamed of, but it's something you should want to fix depending on which category you're in.

Why not? People should live how they want to live, as long as they aren't hurting anyone. I'd expect you to have some basic understanding of that.
 

Wiped89

Member
Man, where does this stuff even come from? Your gender is binary, unless you got screwed by genetics. You have male genitals, or female genitals. If you're a female who identifies as a male, cool, that's fine. Then play as a male, or pick female to more closely resemble your current body-type. Whatever works for you. If mentally you feel like you're somewhere in between, you still lean towards one or the other. Pick whatever you're most comfortable with.

This isn't a hard situation to manage. This isn't some stunning revelation to the world. Games that deal with sexuality will have to manage them in an adult way, as it's an adult subject. So yes, you'll want to make sure to let straights be straight, gays be gay, or anywhere on the spectrum that someone may lie. But Pokemon is built for children as its target audience. Children don't even fucking know their favorite color, please, lets not burden them with being gender fluid. The majority of people are raised as their gender, and it statistically isn't really an issue. Yes, there are people that don't fit that mold. But they're *such* an anomaly that at some point a line needs to be drawn. People with physical disabilities are, unfortunately, unable to play some games. That sucks. You don't suddenly become incapable of playing Pokemon because you can't pick "I'm gender fluid."

If this comes off as rude, I sincerely don't mean for it to. I just think that it's important to accept gender fluid people, but also accept that people will always get left out for one reason or another. Eventually, it will happen to you for a reason that you think sucks. Whether it's you being colorblind, or deaf (half-deaf here!), or even just game aesthetics!
Maybe I'm just ignorant to these problems because I'm white and straight.


Yes! Agreed 100%

Kids don't need 'gender fluid' rammed down their throat, least of all by Pokemon. Total non issue.
It's always been fine in the games so far and I don't remember anyone creating an issue about it.
 

Bert

Member
Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding. Maybe introducing these things at a young age is exactly what's needed so they don't grow up so closed minded and ignorant.

A sure fire way to win an argument is to claim everyone who doesn't think like you is close minded and ignorant.
 
Sure I've heard of them. Doesn't change my opinion. If you honestly truly don't feel like you have any connection to either gender inside of you, that isn't a life you should want to live. You should want to get that fixed about yourself.

And to be clear here, as I am transgender myself (MTF), I also consider myself to have been (and still maybe be?) broken. Transgender people as a whole are broken, because they aren't functioning the way they're supposed to as intended by nature. That isn't something to be ashamed of, but it's something you should want to fix depending on which category you're in.

Fair enough. I apologize if my post came across as accusatory. Many people embrace a non-binary or gender fluid identity and don't see themselves as broken, but as I'm not one of those people I can't really comment further than that.
 

Armigr

Member
A sure fire way to win an argument is to claim everyone who doesn't think like you is close minded and ignorant.

The simple truth is that most parents do raise their kids to be close-minded and ignorant with regards to transgenderism and gender fluidity. Whether that is a problem or not is what is up for debate.
 
All games with character create do this except gamefreak is one of the few that asks you the actual question.

You're always choosing between male or female. Best advice would be to choose which ever closest relates to you or your mood.
 
Yes! Agreed 100%

Kids don't need 'gender fluid' rammed down their throat, least of all by Pokemon. Total non issue.
It's always been fine in the games so far and I don't remember anyone creating an issue about it.

As a cis male, I'm advocating for more gender options because I want it rammed down my throat?

Things can only be rammed down your throat or not. What are options right?
 

Acerac

Banned
Gender slider is simple, unobtrusive and wouldn't be noticed by the kind of people who would raise a stink about it
That'd require a lot of effort to set up the way that characters are designed in the series. Perhaps if you also let players customize their clothing it'd be more feasible.
 
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